NTWF TCG Tutorials and Question Thread

[Vyt: Down, but Not Out]

This is getting a bit insulting, Sarn. I will be straight to my point this time, then.

I think Teow points out that one specific thing that makes the change all unnecessary. It does not cater to what we, the players, actually want to know or see. It's like you're the one who wants the change to happen, and that support is the only thing that's preventing it from happening.

Hearing a coordinator of a game say that "it's just a game" totally spits on the face of it. I am honestly insulted when you, the one who can literally change the rules and elements around here, give out that disregard for the one you have control on. And now that we're met with another kind of change, it's kind of getting hard to adapt to it. Just think: is there a reason why one opposes to someone else's proposal? The answer is quite easy to figure out. "His or her needs aren't addressed."

I do not want to attack you directly. I don't even wish to hurt anyone's feelings around here. But it really looks like there is not enough concern for one party that is involved in this whole fiasco, and that is the player base that keeps the whole thing running. I am not going to put up a threat of leaving this board because of the change, but I will if this whole disregard for the players keeps going on.

[Lizzie]

*steps in*

I'm not very good at TCGs and I've kinda dropped off for a bit but I was going to come back... until I saw this debate.

I'm with Vyt completely and totally. We don't really want change, and I think that you're the only one who really wants it. :/ Sorry, but that's just how I see it.

And if we /do/ change it around, I say that we have a different section for it, cause I sure won't come back if it's changed. I like it the way it is, thanks.

[Stal]

I'm not going to go so far as to say change is entirely bad. But hitting reset just because interest wanes and believing the issues to result in vagueness of the cards that need clarifying or the existent card set and list.

Most experienced players of TCGs can tell you what does and doesn't work in keeping an interest in the game. Sarn, you've admitted to the fact that you know little about the community yourself and you bungled things in the beginning. But you're going on with this thing as an administrator making all sorts of choices and relying on the voice of only one or two people (you never gave me the time to get back to your PM before posting this even) without taking the time to hear out everyone involved and those the game is made for.

Why not identify what the problems are and figure out what works within the context of a TCG to do that? You cite problematic card text, bring out an errata. Are cards being abused? Banned/limited list for sanctioned play (but not unsanctioned play). Do some cards not get much use at all? It doesn't matter. These are problems that TCGs have faced in the many many years that they have been in existence. And these solutions are tried and true tests of what works and doesn't.

You've also stated you don't like playing god with peoples' creations and rephrasing/changing cards to fit within context. Have you thought about what you're doing when you wipe out what people have already poured a lot of time and energy into? You're still playing god, but instead of giving them something to hang onto and have made their time worth it, you've basically told them their time and energy were wasted... you've scrapped what they've done instead of salvaging it for the actual game.

And let's not forget about the impact it has on the players--the entire point and reason this game even exists. I've said in this discussion in the past, but doing your existing players wrong isn't going to do any benefit to the game... it's going to further kill it.

If what you're looking for is further interest in the game, you can only sustain so much interest in a card game with a static card set to begin with. Booster packs and expansion sets exist for a reason. They keep people fresh and interested enough to keep playing... I've seen old players that have given up TCGs get drawn back into it when a new expansion set gets released that has a lot of hype. Expansion sets can also tie into contextual storylines and have overarching themes that make the whole thing pretty awesome. (Real life example, I completely loved the Shards of Alara block from Magic: The Gathering. Not only did I love it and build decks working within the theme of that entire set and using none outside the block, but I made them much more competitive than I would have anticipated being able to).

A complete wipe/resubmission of the current set isn't going to save the game. It's going to kill it more and alienate the few people that are still dedicated enough to keep playing. And I think one of the big things you have to do is let go of most of the control you want to have on it. You want it to thrive and survive... but to do that, you need to spend a lot more time listening to the involved community and make it an open dialogue, not an adversarial discussion that seems to boil down to "This is what I'm going to do, no matter the fact you don't want it to happen, because you just don't like change."

But also the players should be willing to adapt to changes within the game itself (card text, limits within official play, new mechanics, rule clarifications and rulings, etc) instead of decrying all change as bad.

[Deleted]

Someone else take over the whole thing then. I did the best I could and I've obviously failed miserably. I will say this before I go, though. Vyt, I NEVER insulted the players and I NEVER insulted the game. Why do you think I revived it in the first place? Because I love it. Because I wanted to preserve it and nurture it. I put in so much work, so many late nights that I didn't have to do, and I didn't do it so that you guys would think me or think well of me. I didn't do it to show off or anything like that. I did it for love of the game and its players. The fact that I say its "just a game" doesn't mean I don't care for it and you shouldn't have assumed meaning into my words.

Stal, I was waiting. But I was also discussing. It was a proposal, not an order. But I guess none of that matters.

Goodbye.

[Deleted]

I've got all the card list information. *sigh* I'm sorry for deleting it but I stand by my reasons for doing so. If you give me a day or so to cool down I'll re-post it. That at least was a childish action which I regret. The rest of what I said is true for me. My right to rebut and my misinterpreted enthusiasm have been misinterpreted. Anyway. Find yourselves a leader who'll never be passionate enough to argue their case and you'll be happy.

Edit: Fighters are done. Events can just be c/p'd from the old list and there're three or four in the card creation thread. Same story for forumer cards. Strife has the PMs with the FQ cards and Stal still has the PM with my ideas for reviving this place. Some of the might still be implimented. I used to love this place, but I don't anymore, and my love was the reason I put so much hard work into it, and my hurt is the reason I deleted all that hard work. All the information is there, only some poor bugger's gonna have to spend as much time as I did finding it and sorting it out. Whoever does it, you'll understand a little of how I feel when you're done.

I wish this place luck.

[M is for Morphine]

Jun 13, 2010 20:24:14 GMT -5 Scar said:

Though Sarn has said she won't ever make some big change again, so I don't see that you have much to worry about. She keeps her word, your precious cards are safe.

It occurs to me that this might be another reason people are reacting so badly.

[Vyt: Down, but Not Out]

Aug 26, 2010 7:41:19 GMT -5 M is for Morphine said:

Jun 13, 2010 20:24:14 GMT -5 Scar said:

Though Sarn has said she won't ever make some big change again, so I don't see that you have much to worry about. She keeps her word, your precious cards are safe.

It occurs to me that this might be another reason people are reacting so badly.

I think this is a good time to let everything that's happened recently all aside. Things got out of hand pretty quickly with miscommunication and such. And the quote in question was made even before this new discussion even started, so I don't think it really says much at this point.

I do not know if Sarn will be returning to claim her post around here, so I think someone who's been around here will have to take over, at least hopefully for just awhile. Personally, I'm rather busy with real life so I can't do that right now, but I'll try to keep an eye around here just so I'm updated.

[Deleted]

And yet that wasn't how you phrased anything. There was no proposal or discussion. It was extremely dismissive and even condescending. It may not have been your intention to do what everyone thought, but that was very much the image you were portraying. You very much came across as someone that was determined to get her way, and didn't really care at all about opposing ideas. If that wasn't the way you intended it, you have no one to blame but yourself for how you phrased things--you shouldn't be blaming us for reading what was there and what you said.

Even now, you're not putting things in proper perspective. You yourself said you did this for no personal glory, and that people should remember it's just a game. But in the end, you're the one that threw a temper tantrum, deleted things, complain that no one appreciated what you did, and are leaving. Sarn, I love you dearly as a friend, but you're being childish here and playing the victim mentality. And that's just ridiculous.

I think what really gets me is this doesn't appear to be about the game at all, for you. It appears to be entirely about you. You might love the game, but right now all your issues are focused on yourself, and you this and you that, despite your words saying things to the contrary, your actions are showing something completely different.

It's a shame that you've reacted as you have and taken off. But that's your choice in the end. No one has forced you to do this and you made a huge mountain out of absolutely nothing. So if you want to point fingers at anyone, you ought to start looking at yourself.

Though you all might like some clarification on this point, because I'm told I'm rather childish. My reasons for stepping down do NOT include that I didn't get my own way. They consist of several things, most of which has taken place outside this board. It just happened to come to a head during this discussion, so thanks for your input Stal, but you don't actually know what's going on and neither does anyone else here. If you've got about two hours and MSN I'd actually be happy to explain every little reason.

Which brings me to the second clarification. I opened this discussion as exactly that. The way I phrased things was not the best and for that I apologize. I apologize also to Vyt who misunderstood me the most and who bore the brunt of my over-enthusiasm. We've talked it out and ralized that its the result of nothing short of miscommunication on both our parts. I'm sorry Vyt. *hugs* And I'm sorry everyone else. I know it looks very much like I was just going to go ahead and do it my way, but I truly intended to listen to the majority, as I did actually state in one of my posts when I realized that's how people were percieving me.

Third clarifiation. I did not enter this job for anything other than the fun of the game and its players and my love of organization. The reason I coplained about not getting a thank you was because appreciation became necessary after an unnamed someone insulted and demeaned me about my leadership skills. So in the end, yes I did want a thank you, but that wasn't WHY I started out.

And lastly, my actions were immature and the result of anger. I have already made steps to amend this and I have already apologized, but I will do so again. It wasn't my intention to hurt or hinder the game but my anger got the better of me for a time and I truly am sorry for that.

I hope that clears things up for you guys. I'd also like to suggest that it be at least two people who take over. The more that do it, the better as you can bounce ideas off each other and all the work doesn't get delegated to one person.

Oh and you TCG folks ... if you ever find yourself with a leader who isn't versed in TCGs, please don't do what you did with me. This isn't meant as an accusation, but when I was still coordinating and I put forth ideas (like this latest one) that contradic the functions of a real life TCG, don't just shoot the idea down and leave it at that, try to suggest alternatives. Support and uplift your leaders instead of unintentinally demeaning them, and do make sure to encourage them, regardless of their skills and knowledge.

And just to show there's no hard feelings, here're some ideas I came up with to keep people's interest which you may be able t use.

SPOILER: Click to show

See, interest in the TCG has, in part, waned, and I've got heaps of ideas on how to regain interest but I'm not sure how well they'll go down. Visitation, the current tournament, is dragging, so I thought I could do something as a side-show, only that poses a problem, because no changes can be made to people's decks while the tourney is still in progress.

Anyway, I've got four ideas to work with but feel free to add your own, or change mine. That's the point. xD

Idea One: This can only be started after Visitation as its origin is tied into the storyline. Basically (if you've been following the plot) the visitors are alien-animated TCG cards and they've got a big mothership. The final battle is between the tournament winner and the mothership, which is the source of animation for the cards. So when that thing blows, along with all the creatures on board, they turn back into cards and slowly float down to earth again.

The idea is that, every now and again, I pounce on a board and roll some dice, each die corresponding to one of the numbers in the card's ID number, and whatever the dice randomly come out as, the corresponding card is gifted as a random event to the person who posted above me.

Idea Two: This one pertains to the card art, actually. Since the whole retired fiasco (I'm never listening to Hunty about the TCG again. She may be good with the Guilds, but that was a disaster and I took the fall for it. D:) and Teow's trouble with it, interest has waned there, too. So I figured some kind of reward for the artists who do card art. My first idea was shinies. Perhaps 20 Shinies per picture, and then Scar had the idea of a series of badges (this is why I need you, since you're a mod) that act sort of like forum ranks. We'll have maybe 5 badges (you can only have one at a time) that can be upgraded. I'd be happy to keep a track of who did which art and advise the mods of it if that is needed. I was thinking I could just keep a scoreboard somewhere for reference.

Idea Three: To put it simply, retired cards. These are cards that I would perhaps create a set of, maybe 5 common, 3 uncommon and 1 rare, that go on sale for a month or so, at the end of which they retire. They'll be no stronger or weaker than normal cards, and I'll certainly make them forum themed, but I'm really not sure how well this would work in gathering interest.

Idea Four: You know about how Neopets have MMEs? Well I'm going to steal their idea and say we can have evolving ards, only it works slightly differently. The first card goes on sale, and people buy it. It will then have something like 8-10 evolutions. At any time during the evolutionary process, a person who has the card may choose to halt the evolutions of their card and it will then remain at that stage. Its sort of like a game of chance, where you might stop your card's evolution at stage 6 and then stage 7 turns out to be this amazing superpower card. xDDD But it could also be a dud. They'd all have to be of the same rarity, though.

Good luck.

[Vyt: Down, but Not Out]

Since no one else opted to, I'm going to voice out my opinion on Sarn's ideas left in her last post.

Idea One sounds like a giveaway, and giveaways are great opportunities to kick things off after something big, usually after new expansion packs. I personally think this is a very good idea to implement, as it also can make players start posting more around here.

Idea Two isn't that bad of an idea as well. It incorporates the fact that artists work hard for the card art, and should be rewarded in doing so. The option between getting Shinies or badges is a good way to reward both playing and non-playing artists involved.

"Retired cards" doesn't really summarize what Idea Three is all about. It's more of "exclusive cards" that stay for only a few days or so before halting their production. This works better in a huge base of players, but it will work fine in a small one as well. However, I am puzzled as to what the cards really are; being "exclusive", there should be something unique about them that separates them from the ones already listed.

Idea Four is rather playing on my mind a bit. It really sounds like a game of chance, and while I fancy the idea of making players take the risk of stopping the evolution, it should be considered that the "evolutions" involved should still be following the points guidelines incorporated with how cards are made.

[M is for Morphine]

I like the ideas of contests, and also promos. I have a few possible plans in the works for both of these.

I am thinking about putting up a small amount of money (and maybe a call for prize donations) for interesting tournament prizes like, for example, deviant art points or commissions from our more famous artists.

I also thought it might bring in some outside blood to have promotional cards that tie in to important forum events. For example, I had an idea for a promo card to be awarded to participants in this year's NaNoWriMo. Making a post about it on the Nano forum that springs up in November might bring in some people that normally wouldn't browse games. The card fits in thematically with NaNo, and I've already gotten a preliminary sketch from my sister (who is a far better artist than I am).

[Vyt: Down, but Not Out]

Aug 29, 2010 16:38:28 GMT -5 M is for Morphine said:

I also thought it might bring in some outside blood to have promotional cards that tie in to important forum events. For example, I had an idea for a promo card to be awarded to participants in this year's NaNoWriMo. Making a post about it on the Nano forum that springs up in November might bring in some people that normally wouldn't browse games. The card fits in thematically with NaNo, and I've already gotten a preliminary sketch from my sister (who is a far better artist than I am).

That's almost the exact point of creating expansion packs: they're usually tied to a new or recurring theme. I think it'll be great if we actually post in the Card Creation thread asking for new cards to be tied to a specific theme, and once we get enough of them for one theme, we can release them in an expansion pack.

I'm a bit stuck on which themes we should start on, though. The NaNo is a great theme, but we should add more just so we can have other cards ready for the next batch of cards.

[M is for Morphine]

Aug 29, 2010 16:55:44 GMT -5 Vyt: Down, but Not Out said:

That's almost the exact point of creating expansion packs: they're usually tied to a new or recurring theme. I think it'll be great if we actually post in the Card Creation thread asking for new cards to be tied to a specific theme, and once we get enough of them for one theme, we can release them in an expansion pack.

I'm a bit stuck on which themes we should start on, though. The NaNo is a great theme, but we should add more just so we can have other cards ready for the next batch of cards.

I was hoping for something a little smaller than a full expansion. Not that we couldn't have a NaNo expansion, because that is a great idea. They would be a small, but interesting freebie for participating in interesting events. For example, Wolf makes a fun Reader's Challenge every year. It would be cool if people who completed the challenge could get, say, a card called 'Overflowing Bookshelf'.

There are several reason I think it would be good to have it be small scale. The first is so that if a regular player could not participate in the event, they would not feel like a large amount of content would be shut off to them. The second reason is so that the promo could be completed, art and all, in a timely manner and events could be more frequent or spontaneous.

The idea is not to make it a big thing, but just something where people can go, "Oh hey, I won a card? I should check out the TCG and see what I can do with this." Or where regular TCG players can feel they get a small bonus for doing something that they might have wanted to do already.

[Lizzie]

Aug 29, 2010 16:38:28 GMT -5 M is for Morphine said:

Nano forum that springs up in November

It's already up, silly.

[M is for Morphine]

Aug 29, 2010 17:08:48 GMT -5 Lizzie said:

Aug 29, 2010 16:38:28 GMT -5 M is for Morphine said:

Nano forum that springs up in November

It's already up, silly.

Well, gets really rocking in November. I forget about it the rest of the year, as you can see. >.<

[Draco]

I remember the Guilds were, and still are I guess, given a chance to create Expansion packs based on the guilds.

However from what I can tell, it never happened... I tried getting the Ninja Guild together to make cards, but they all disappeared...