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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2010 23:16:25 GMT -5
What if the first player draws Tea Party on his/her initial hand and plays it? Does this mean s/he doesn't attack for that turn, or the next? I was thinking that because of the wording "skip their next attack phase", the first turn could be a bit confusing for the effect to be implemented (the second player has no Fighter card during the first turn, so I don't know if an attack phase still exists for that specific turn). Hmm, good point. I think perhaps logic kicks in and says you skip your next possible attack phase, but someone might beg to differ. *shrug* |
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Post by Draco on Aug 21, 2010 23:43:29 GMT -5
What if the first player draws Tea Party on his/her initial hand and plays it? Does this mean s/he doesn't attack for that turn, or the next? I was thinking that because of the wording "skip their next attack phase", the first turn could be a bit confusing for the effect to be implemented (the second player has no Fighter card during the first turn, so I don't know if an attack phase still exists for that specific turn). Hmm, good point. I think perhaps logic kicks in and says you skip your next possible attack phase, but someone might beg to differ. *shrug* I'm going with next possible attack phase as well. I've never seen the first player ever attack, the second does or doesn't depending. So I would think the second player will be forced not to attack on their first turn, and then when it's the first players second turn, they skip that attack phase. |
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Post by Vyt: Down, but Not Out on Aug 22, 2010 19:40:02 GMT -5
Hmm, good point. I think perhaps logic kicks in and says you skip your next possible attack phase, but someone might beg to differ. *shrug* I'm going with next possible attack phase as well. I've never seen the first player ever attack, the second does or doesn't depending. So I would think the second player will be forced not to attack on their first turn, and then when it's the first players second turn, they skip that attack phase. I'll do that for now. I still don't see a clear answer on whether the first player technically has an attack phase on his/her first turn despite the inability to attack though, but Tea Party's effects are pretty clear by now. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2010 2:18:27 GMT -5
So I've been thinking ...
I'll say it right off the bat. A new edition. I know its soon, but hear me out on my reasons.
Firstly, when I took over the job I wasn't intended to start a new edition, since every card from the previous card list is included. Technically what I did was take the old edition and open up card creation again. So if this one goes ahead, it'd be the 3rd edition, and technically since the seond edition came out years ago, its long overdue.
Secondly, I had no idea what I was doing when I stepped in. I knew I wanted to bring this thing back to life, but I must admit that, short of organization, I've been pretty phail at this. Things have gotten messy once more and the cleaner in me is urging me to purge and reset, while still keeping essential elements like the most popular cards and suchlike. So current cards can be re-submitted.
Thirdly, with the number of cards that have ambiguous text ... :/ Vyt's questions about card clarification are proof enough that the wording of a lot of cards needs review, and there are a few that are just impossible to deal with. Unidentified Backstabber springs to mind, no offence to whoever made it. Point is, opening up a new edition means that I can actually get people to help me with the card creation process, people who know about the TCG and will be able to look at the card's wording and go "oh but what about ..." and thus be able to better refine it all.
Fourthly, the whole thing won't be that much different. I've already laid down the foundation on which to build and the only thing that'll really happen is a clean slate for the card list, with the exception of some cards like the FQ expansion pack.
Fifthly, and you'll have to take my word for this, I have plans for events and some ideas for speshul things, which are made difficult by the structure of the current list. I don't ant to give away too much, though.
sO, OPINIONS?
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Post by Vyt: Down, but Not Out on Aug 23, 2010 19:34:04 GMT -5
By "new edition", you mean a rehaul of everything? It sounds almost like that "canon cards" incident, though I'm not jumping into conclusions here and being offensive about it. There's always the main issues concerning editions, since it's like restarting the whole thing. While I'm personally against it (mainly because the original coordinators of the TCG did a good job of the list and rules anyway and I don't see any major problems with them), this is something that should be discussed among the players.
About my part in the third thing, it's just that I'm experienced in trading card games that I can't help but see the possibilities of people mis-using the cards and the rules associated with them. You can say I still can't help but feel like a Coordinator once more. This isn't a "I just HAVE to have a voice on this" thing, though; it's out of respect for an enjoyable gaming experience.
Back to the main topic. I see that you really want to renew the activity in the NTWF TCG. However, in my opinion, a purging of even just one element from a game is a rather heavy action, and that there needs to be good explanation and compensation for it. I think you've covered enough for the former, but it won't hurt for us to know what exactly will happen to everyone around here once we actually decide to undergo through this major change.
I do have to completely disagree with something you said: you don't exactly have to make a rehaul just to get help with the card creation process. If the wording is such a problem, why don't we just go over each card for that? It eliminates the time consumption that a resubmission does, and still be able to keep things intact.
A minor concern for me as of now is the ongoing tournament. I'm guessing you're going to let us play through this first before we seriously consider a new edition.
<tl;dr>, I'm worried about what might happen if a new edition overwrites the current one. It's rather sudden and sounds a bit unnecessary.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2010 2:23:57 GMT -5
By "new edition", you mean a rehaul of everything? It sounds almost like that "canon cards" incident, though I'm not jumping into conclusions here and being offensive about it. There's always the main issues concerning editions, since it's like restarting the whole thing. While I'm personally against it (mainly because the original coordinators of the TCG did a good job of the list and rules anyway and I don't see any major problems with them), this is something that should be discussed among the players. About my part in the third thing, it's just that I'm experienced in trading card games that I can't help but see the possibilities of people mis-using the cards and the rules associated with them. You can say I still can't help but feel like a Coordinator once more. This isn't a "I just HAVE to have a voice on this" thing, though; it's out of respect for an enjoyable gaming experience. Back to the main topic. I see that you really want to renew the activity in the NTWF TCG. However, in my opinion, a purging of even just one element from a game is a rather heavy action, and that there needs to be good explanation and compensation for it. I think you've covered enough for the former, but it won't hurt for us to know what exactly will happen to everyone around here once we actually decide to undergo through this major change. I do have to completely disagree with something you said: you don't exactly have to make a rehaul just to get help with the card creation process. If the wording is such a problem, why don't we just go over each card for that? It eliminates the time consumption that a resubmission does, and still be able to keep things intact. A minor concern for me as of now is the ongoing tournament. I'm guessing you're going to let us play through this first before we seriously consider a new edition. <tl;dr>, I'm worried about what might happen if a new edition overwrites the current one. It's rather sudden and sounds a bit unnecessary. Ok, one point at a time. xD; Its nothing like the canon cards incident, which by the way was not my idea origionally. I listened to a few others because I knew nothing about TCGs myself which obviously became a problem. Anyway, better to forget. T_T I did actually say that its not a complete overhaul, its a clean slate of the card list ONLY. Nothing else about the game would change, at least for a while, and only then if someone else brings up an issue. I agree that Rider and Scar and the others did a great job, so why mess things up? Its the cards, and nothing else. xD Its ok, Vyt, its really good that you're picking up on these because I simply don't have the ability to do it, so no problem there. ^_^ Compensation? You'll have to stop dancing around it and actually tell me what you're getting at, because as far as I can tell, RL TCGs bring out new editions and don't give their players squat for it. Do you think I owe you guys a bunch of Shinies for giving you a shiny new card list? Erm ... ok that sounded more aggressive than I intended ... what I mean is, if you want/think you are entitled to something then you'll need to tell me specifically and not beat about the bush. How am I to know what'll happen to the players? I'm not psychic and its up to each individual whether or not they keep playing. Already we've had people sign up and drop off the radar and that's their choice, not mine. Right now I'm doing my best to gather and keep interest in this place, which is a LOT harder than it sounds. In short, I got no clue. You tell me. No, I know that's true, but I do feel pretty uncomfortable with it. The first time I went through and standardized the card language, I wasn't actually changing or adapting the meaning of any of the cards (I think it happened by accident a few times, but I've edited them again) and especially when it comes to forumer cards, I'm uncomfortable playing God with people's personal creations. Not only that, but as I said, there are a few cards which are beyond repair, as it were. xD They're creative and interesting, but impractical and cumbersome in-game, and rather than just target a few cards to zap (which is kinda unfair to their creators) I'd prefer to just re-do the card list with a tighter restriction on card creation and people to help me catch those impractical cards. Mhm, Visitation will go ahead as planned. I never intended to interrupt it ... put too much work into the darn thing. xD; I do have ideas for other kinds of tournaments as well which I'll probably bring out sometie in the future, whenever people start dropping off again. *chuckles* I think this place is terrified of change. I'm not saying this to be rude or anything, but every time I've tried to change anything that isn't a tiny rule that no one really cares about, there's been uproar and worry and people who quit just because everything isn't exactly how they want it to be. Change isn't always bad, in fact change can be good. This thing was dead when I picked it up. It changed leadership, and now its alive. That was a good change even if I'm not the best leader in the world, but I've got the organizational skills and the ideas and the motivation. I've spent many hours sorting and editing and thinking and discussing and I'm not a complete moron. Maybe this is a little too soon, but you've got to remember that, by the time we discuss everything, decide exactly what to do and how to do it, finish Visitation and wrap everything up, it'll likely have been at least three months, maybe more. Its not sudden, I'm only bringing it up now so that we have plenty of time to discuss before anything is done. At this stage we are considering, nothing more, and given the time it'll take just to get Visitation over and done with, I'd say this is anything but sudden. |
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Post by Draco on Aug 24, 2010 2:58:05 GMT -5
When you say New Edition, normally in card games and other desk top games (from what I can tell, since I never really played or bothered to pay attention to much mind you XD I just collected, never played), it means a new set or rules and "playables" (cards, figures, classes, etc). Usually when it comes to card games, you can usually continue to use the old ones, even if the rules change a little. There are a few cases where I think that changes (not totally sure, but I think some of the newer Pokemon cards got some weird things with them that clash with older rules, but not really sure, just a guess). In other games, the rules change a little, and some older "playables" are taken away I believe. So yeah, the idea of New Edition can and will scare some people. In fact, I think Stal posted a good Penny Arcade comic about D&D earlier on Facebook. Right Here--- For the rules, I don't really see a problem right now XD The basic rules seem fine, and I haven't really looked at the alternate game rules, but I think their fine to when I skimmed them. The only thing that still confuses me a bit is the element advantage (and that's mostly because I haven't run into it much in my matches xD). For the cards. Yeah, it seems some wording is a bit confusing >.> But most of it is really easy to understand with common sense, and a few of us seem to lack it when reading them (like earlier how I confused 'Comes Into Play'). Personally I think some of the cards that are a problem are fine if they are changed to Uncommon or Rare (even if the point value is low). Where the majority of everyone's cards are Common (with maybe one Uncommon in a deck from what I can see), a 'broken' or 'over powered' Common card turned Uncommon/Rare would fix it a little. --- Overall, I'm fine with how things are, but I don't really care if things change either XD I'm willing to help out some if things do plan to change. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2010 5:00:08 GMT -5
Maybe "new edition" was the wrong phrase, then, with those connotations. I'll make myself clear right now. There are no current issues with the rules or game structure and I have no wish nor intention to change them unless a problem arises. If you read my first post about this you will see that I say specifically that nothing but the cards would change.
Draco, the problem with the cards I'm talking about hasn't got anything to do with their rarity or their power, though you make a good point about there being disproportionate numbers of common vs unommon and rare, which is another thing I've been thinking about putting caps on for the (potential) new card list.
This might comfort a few of you, but I was actually thinking of giving the card creation process over to someone else who can do a much better job than I ever could. Was thinking I'd ask maybe two or three people who know what they're doing, and two out of the three have to agree on a card's functionality before it gets into the card list. That way we keep things tidy, and when its all over, we get a shiny golden card list that will, hopefully, have only minor flaws And yes, I do have people in mind for this task. Just thought some of you would feel better about this if you knew I wasn't in charge. >_>
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Post by Vyt: Down, but Not Out on Aug 24, 2010 18:13:27 GMT -5
It's not like we hate having to change, but it should be considered that the element to be changed actually constitutes a lot to the foundation of the game, namely the cards. I mean, this is a trading card game, which means the change can drastically affect us, and which kind of change it will be, we wouldn't know.
This full purging of the card list means some of the cards might be totally changed or, even worse, removed. I cannot exaggerate this even further than how I do it right now: this will really shake up the ground where the players are standing. If they're lucky, they get their cards (and decks) intact, but it is very realistic to assume they might not attain that condition.
Also, the purge would take some time, what with all the extra processes now involved in card creation. Judging by how you want to "spice things up" around here, I don't think this lengthy process would help your cause.
For compensations, I had thought of a chance for players to redo their player position. This can range from replacing the cards that have been purged out to exchanging their whole pile of cards (including their deck) to make a new Starter deck. Of course, I can't implement this myself, but I think it's a good idea to give the players some sort of opportunities to clean out their would-be "outdated" cards and deck.
It's always a wise idea to reach some sort of middle ground between the coordinators and the players. That way, the change wouldn't be so opposed.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2010 23:10:39 GMT -5
It's not like we hate having to change, but it should be considered that the element to be changed actually constitutes a lot to the foundation of the game, namely the cards. I mean, this is a trading card game, which means the change can drastically affect us, and which kind of change it will be, we wouldn't know. This full purging of the card list means some of the cards might be totally changed or, even worse, removed. I cannot exaggerate this even further than how I do it right now: this will really shake up the ground where the players are standing. If they're lucky, they get their cards (and decks) intact, but it is very realistic to assume they might not attain that condition. Also, the purge would take some time, what with all the extra processes now involved in card creation. Judging by how you want to "spice things up" around here, I don't think this lengthy process would help your cause. For compensations, I had thought of a chance for players to redo their player position. This can range from replacing the cards that have been purged out to exchanging their whole pile of cards (including their deck) to make a new Starter deck. Of course, I can't implement this myself, but I think it's a good idea to give the players some sort of opportunities to clean out their would-be "outdated" cards and deck. It's always a wise idea to reach some sort of middle ground between the coordinators and the players. That way, the change wouldn't be so opposed. I do realize this, but I don't honestly think its that much of a change. No more so than the last overhaul or the one before that. Some cards go, some stay, new ones get created and pele make a new starter deck. Simple as that. The game itself doesn't change, and if you're so afraid of it being a bad change then what are you doing playing a TCG, the kind of game where change constantly happens, with updates and rule tweaking and all that jazz. The only way in which I could forsee it "drastically affecting you" is if you're so attached to your current deck that you'd rather quit the game then consider making a new one, in which case I say to you, ITS A GAME! Yes, you've come up with a good deck and a good strategy but its not the only possible deck/strategy out there and you HAVE to adapt. I probably should have mentioned it, but I was indeed intending to give players the chance to shake up their decks and update and clean and whatnot. I guess I figured given that the card list will change so much, it'd be kinda a give-in, but I guess not. My idea is that everyone can create a new deck. Those with commons can create a new starter deck, and those with uncommons and rares ... well you've earned them and I don't want to set you back, so you can pick another card of the same rarity to replace it. This applies even to the cards that might still exist in the new card list, because I realize a strategy is spread over the whole deck. As for the time it takes, I think you're underestimating my organizational skills when I get motivated. I made every poll thread for the latest Superlatives and I did it all on the same night. I go crazy when I'm enjoying my work. ^_^ It'll take a while, sure, and people might lose interest while this is going on, but interest might be re-gained, and I honestly believe the benifits of a clean card list outweigh the drawbacks of the time it'll take. "I can't implement this myself." Can't is a strong word. I'm almost totally blind and I can't see very well. I'm almost totally blind and I won't cross a busy road without a crossing. Doesn't mean I can't, I just think it'd be stupid to risk my life. xD I think the word you're looking for is "won't" because there's no universe in which you simply could not change your deck lest you die. xDDDDDDDDDD Adapt, Vyt. It is. I'm not stupid, which is why we're here, discussing. So far you're the only one who has raised objections, though, and I'm well within my rights to argue my logic back to you. It works both ways. I suspect other people are merely stalking our conversation and having a think about it, which they're welcome to do until they're ready to share their opinion. Seriously, guys, its sort of got to work by majority here. If a lot of you don't want a change then I will certainly listen and things will stay the way they are. I want you guys to be happy. |
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Post by Vyt: Down, but Not Out on Aug 25, 2010 1:08:55 GMT -5
I'm getting a bit irked out by how strong your reaction to that single word is, but ergh. I was pointing out more to how something has to be discussed by majority... Mhm, I don't think I should be standing around here talking about something minor.
I'm not questioning your ability to organize stuff, by the way. It's more objective; I was referring to the process itself. Especially since you've implied that you are going to enlist the help of others, it will take some time to be executed properly. Still, if you wish to assure us that you'll make it in a short duration, that's awesome.
Anyway, if it's not clear to you, I am just being cautious about your plan. If the majority wants it implemented, I want to make sure it goes through a smooth transition. I will admit this: ever since the canonicity incident, I do not want to experience something so sudden and drastic. My participation in this discussion should show that, as well as my interest and skills as a card game enthusiast.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2010 4:20:30 GMT -5
I'm getting a bit irked out by how strong your reaction to that single word is, but ergh. I was pointing out more to how something has to be discussed by majority... Mhm, I don't think I should be standing around here talking about something minor. I'm not questioning your ability to organize stuff, by the way. It's more objective; I was referring to the process itself. Especially since you've implied that you are going to enlist the help of others, it will take some time to be executed properly. Still, if you wish to assure us that you'll make it in a short duration, that's awesome. Anyway, if it's not clear to you, I am just being cautious about your plan. If the majority wants it implemented, I want to make sure it goes through a smooth transition. I will admit this: ever since the canonicity incident, I do not want to experience something so sudden and drastic. My participation in this discussion should show that, as well as my interest and skills as a card game enthusiast. Oh Vyt, stop dancing around it. I'm sorry if you don't like me for it but I tell it like I see it and I see that you don't like change, and you're being more than just cautious, you're totally opposed, so why not just say it? Its silly to just banter about the place, though I do apologize deeply for any offense my frankness has caused. And I don't really want to bring this up again, but I feel it needs saying ... the canonicity thing wasn't as big a deal as you're making it out to be. The major problem wasn't the retired cards, it was my lack of communication over it, so it came as a shock. As a psychologist, I can honestly say that, had I made the process gradual you might've been a bit regretful at the loss of one or two cards, but you wouldn't have left the game like you did. The point is you quite obviously still "blame" me in some respect for the "trauma" of having a game go wrong for you and as a result you're opposed to any other non-minor changes. Do not misunderstand me! I'm not being nasty and I extend to you every apology if you happened to take offense. Your reaction to the canon cards thing was, in my opinion, uncalled for, but it is perfectly valid for -you- and I don't blame/hold grudges at all. Like ever. xD And thus your caution is also valid. Heck, I'm being cautious too ... cautiously optimistic, sure, but still cautious. I want to see this game bloom and prosper like you do. I've put so much work into it that it'd be stupid for me to just let it die like it has done before, and I'm not alone. Scar's been looking over my shoulder the whole time, watching me work, giving me his advice as a TCG expert. I'd ask him to give his opinion on this but if he agreed with me you'd all just think its because we're a couple, which isn't true at all but you can't change people's minds without a baseball bat. *chuckles* |
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Post by Stal on Aug 25, 2010 12:47:28 GMT -5
I'm with Vyt. Why purge everything?
If you want to run things like a TCG, use the knowledge of those that have a lot of TCG experience--not just Scar . No game out there wipes out the entire old set of cards. If you want to add rule tweaks, you add them and bring out new cards but leave the old ones alone. If you want to clarify old ones, you write up errata and banned/limited lists for "legal" or "official" play. You don't just wipe them out or delete them altogether. You work with what you have.
I'm due back at work (my lunch break is ending), I'll post some more later, but Vyt has a point.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2010 12:50:24 GMT -5
Just remember, guys... that every time someone says "you", it's the same as sticking a finger in that person's face. Try and stick to how you feel about it instead of throwing all those "you said"s and "you don't"s around.
Less pointing... more understanding and room to be different. We can't all share the same idea and passion. =)
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Post by M is for Morphine on Aug 25, 2010 13:46:20 GMT -5
I think this, right here, illustrates why you are meeting so much resistance when you try to make sweeping changes. You are discounting the role of all of the players in this process. Things like the above quote make it seem like you care very little for the work and input of the small, but dedicated player base.
So, what is in it for the people who have to relearn rules, remake decks, resubmit cards? Why should they even bother, if it is subject to change so easily? The reward for their hard work so far seems to have been 'Stop whining'.
I am a TCG veteran myself. I played Magic the Gathering heavily, the Neopets card game, as well as online card games like Necronomicon and Elements. If that counts for anything.
I've always felt that a big selection of cards is an asset to a game. It is fun to pour over the cards and look for possible combos and interactions. This game has around 300 cards, which is similar to what MtG launched with. That's a pretty good number to start with. Why not continue to build this healthy base?
People like Vyt, who are willing to hold the hand of this little game all throughout it's painful labor, are the best resource you have. You can have the clearest, cleanest rules known to man and it will not matter without people who love it and want to play it. It looks to me like you have about 7 people who play regularly, not the hundreds or thousands of people commercial releases enjoy. Don't treat them the same as a faceless multitude when the entire player base would fit around a kitchen table.
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