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Post by Allison on Dec 31, 2017 16:24:54 GMT -5
I was actually surprised at how much harder this most recent wraith is, compared to the last one. Especially since the HP only goes up by 6. I could beat the last one on medium twice before having to heal, and I can't figure out how to beat this one ONCE on medium. And yet I can nearly one hit the guy on easy. Go figure. lol
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Post by Patjade on Jan 1, 2018 10:06:16 GMT -5
ber it being fairly generous. Also! Let's look at those weapons from the Faerie chests. Each one does 13 icons of a single type against the wraith that you get it for (Air for the Staff, Dark for the Key, and I think it was Physical for the Palm Blade thinger). This leads me to wonder if we'll get seven such weapons total to use against seven different wraiths. While the Winged Palm Blade does 13 physical against Wraiths, you should see what it does against non-Wraith opponents. I've been playing with it, and have seen that it does the following: 5 Fire 5 Light 6 Nature 1-6 Physical 17 - 22 total. I think they have the powers reversed as it is more powerful against non-Wraith opponents that with the plot opponents and rivals some of the best weaponry you can find in the HT. |
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Post by Fraze on Jan 1, 2018 11:24:55 GMT -5
ber it being fairly generous. Also! Let's look at those weapons from the Faerie chests. Each one does 13 icons of a single type against the wraith that you get it for (Air for the Staff, Dark for the Key, and I think it was Physical for the Palm Blade thinger). This leads me to wonder if we'll get seven such weapons total to use against seven different wraiths. While the Winged Palm Blade does 13 physical against Wraiths, you should see what it does against non-Wraith opponents. I've been playing with it, and have seen that it does the following: 5 Fire 5 Light 6 Nature 1-6 Physical 17 - 22 total. I think they have the powers reversed as it is more powerful against non-Wraith opponents that with the plot opponents and rivals some of the best weaponry you can find in the HT. Yeah, that one is great! That alone could make this plot worth it for a lot of people. I just hope that on account of being no-trade, it doesn't make as many people cranky as the Corrosive Spear Wand, so it'll be less likely to be nerfed. |
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Post by Patjade on Jan 1, 2018 12:09:03 GMT -5
While the Winged Palm Blade does 13 physical against Wraiths, you should see what it does against non-Wraith opponents. I've been playing with it, and have seen that it does the following: 5 Fire 5 Light 6 Nature 1-6 Physical 17 - 22 total. I think they have the powers reversed as it is more powerful against non-Wraith opponents that with the plot opponents and rivals some of the best weaponry you can find in the HT. Yeah, that one is great! That alone could make this plot worth it for a lot of people. I just hope that on account of being no-trade, it doesn't make as many people cranky as the Corrosive Spear Wand, so it'll be less likely to be nerfed. Given the power, it'll really do a tune on a lot higher-priced weapons. I suspect it may get nerfed, but until then, it's my #2 weapon of choice. |
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Post by Duke Pikachu on Jan 1, 2018 13:03:17 GMT -5
Yeah, that one is great! That alone could make this plot worth it for a lot of people. I just hope that on account of being no-trade, it doesn't make as many people cranky as the Corrosive Spear Wand, so it'll be less likely to be nerfed. No, it should still be nerfed. Sure, it's non-trade, but it's still a weapon as powerful as a HIDDEN TOWER weapon being given away for practically FREE. I've said this multiple times, this has little to do with the after market! Now yes, since EVERYONE can get the weapon with little effort they have a weapon you'd otherwise have to spent millions to get. And in that case, why buy the HT weapons that it's equal to? It'll effect those weapon's prices. But, as I said, that's only a little factor. The other factors are more of a problem:
Wasting Player's Time & NP: Before TWR we were constantly told to prepare for the battling. This comes down to 2 things: Training and upgrading Equipment. Many players upgraded their weapon set, some spending millions... only to then be given a Hidden Tower level weapon for free. Like, sure, the training we needed, but why bother with the weapon upgrading? Players spent millions to get better weapon, some Hidden Tower weapons, only to be told their effort and NP was mostly for naught.
Precedence: So, should we expect this from all future events and plots for now on? Whenever there may be a portion of the plot that may be difficult for some players, instead of JS setting up alternate ways for them to do what they needed to do they'll just hand out a "you win!" item? Right now it's the BD, but what if they do this say for a game playing event like GMC or Daily Dare where you can get an item that automatically adds a certain amount of points to your score? Why not? Not everyone is great at playing certain games, and it's no different from what they're doing with giving out a Hidden Tower level weapon. Sure, it'll lessen the meaning and value behind the Trophies for those games and the event and the prizes for the event, but hey as long as they make sure every single player as possible wins, even if they normally couldn't without JS intervention, no one loses... or gets any feeling of accomplishment or value! Also, why should we do ANY preparation like upgrading weapons (or training for Neopets who are moderately strong) when they'll just give us all we need to win during events where we normally would have put our preparations to the test. Retaining Players: What better way to retain players than by making the older players feel like all the effort they put into making their Neopet strong and have a good weapon set feel like that time was wasted. Or how about making new players feel like they're not losing anything if they decide to leave seeing they're just given what they need to succeed when there's an event/plot (thus no reason to play when there isn't anything going on) or they discover there are parts of the site that does require major dedication which to them would feel like a difficulty spike (and that could have been affected by making another part of the site easier so the economy shifted to make another part, like Album Collecting or Customization, more expensive; heck, if only strictly damaging weapons are effected than shields, healers, and freezers may go up to counterbalance). This in no way retain players, if anything it either pushes old players away or make new players feel they're losing nothing if they decide to leave or only come on when there's an event going on. And let me right now address some of the common counter arguments: You're Just Mad Your Weapons Wouldn't Be Expensive Anymore: Eh, maybe a little... but the problem with that is I already have my expensive weapon set. If that what I cared about, I wouldn't really care as I myself am good. Yes, I'm annoyed that I spent years and millions of NP to get my battling pet to where it is now for some players to be getting those weapons for free, but if this wa the only reason I wouldn't be so mad. My concern is for the site as a whole and the value and accomplishment that players, especially new players, would feel. Because those who don't feel accomplished will just leave, and if enough people leave there's no reason keep Neopets as it is, and this will most likely cause the site to close down. So, yeah, maybe making players have to work to improve their account and Neopets isn't such a bad idea. They've Done This With Other Items Before: Yes, though most of the time it's only that specific item effected. However BD equipment is unique is that the introduction of a new weapon can affect the price of all other weapons in the category it is in if it's good and it being offered at a decent/lower price. Also whenever TNT did this they calculated the risks and decided it was maybe worth deflating this item. JS had no such thought, they're focus was on making sure as many players as possible could win, not even thinking of the consequences of after effects of giving out such a powerful weapon for free. This Is Just For Those Who Didn't Train: We were told MONTHS in advance to prepare by training and getting better weapons. Even if you could only train once per day should be in moderately okay condition. Also in the past few years, if not months, we got a slew of great mid-level weapons that a moderately trained Neopet can use effectively to get them through. This may sound mean, but for those who didn't train despite the amount of warning both the News, Neoboards, and Jellyneo gave everyone months ahead of time: that's our fault. At most JS should provide an alternate way to get Wraith materials (or make even the weak Wraiths give out the new Wraith materials once needed (which they can still do, it just involved them adding the material to that Wraith's prize pool)), but that doesn't mean you should handed a HT weapon so you can get the same awards as those who did prepare. You Still Need A Neopet With Strong Stats: That is true, BD equipment are only as good as the stats of the Neopet wielding them, but here's the thing: the weapon is going to stay around after the plot. As I said, why buy a HT weapon now that you got one for free? All you need to do now is train and buy the other BD equipment (which may go up in price to counterbalance). It's not only this moment of time being affected, it's also the future. Stronger Weapons Are Always Coming Out/This Is The New Standard: Ugh, PLEASE don't support this! We don't need icon inflation! This is just a domino effect waiting to happen. I think right now we're already at a pretty nice state in terms of icons. We have a low level (10-13 icons), mid level (14-16 icons), and high level (17+ icons); and mid level is considered standard. That's how it should be. We don't need making the high level a standard because that'll mean, to make the HT items worth anything, they'll have to do more damage (and they'll cost more). But then when the next event/plot comes along they'd need to give out a weapon as strong as the new strong weapons, making those the standard meaning they'll have to release an even stronger and more expensive weapon in the HT. Now imagine new users in the future coming in and seeing these huge prices for BD equipment. They'll be driven away for sure! So, yeah, even if no-trade the new weapon needs a nerf similar to the spear. And no, not even switching which opponents get the amount of icons changes this. |
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Post by Herdy on Jan 1, 2018 13:18:16 GMT -5
It doesn't need a nerf. As Patjade said, its just broken in that its been reversed to do extra damage to everyone except the Wind Rider Wraith instead of the other way around like the other weapons from the chest.
All it needs is fixing.
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Post by Duke Pikachu on Jan 1, 2018 14:08:43 GMT -5
It doesn't need a nerf. As Patjade said, its just broken in that its been reversed to do extra damage to everyone except the Wind Rider Wraith instead of the other way around like the other weapons from the chest. All it needs is fixing. Maybe for right now, just for The Wraith Resurgence. However they shouldn't do this for future plots/events (at least ones which involve battling). Because, once again, if they're going to give us HT level BD equipment (even if it only affects event/plot specific opponents) through the step achievements, then what's the point preparing outside of events/plots (aside training)? And, even though I'm easing for now, I still think it should get nerfed, if nothing else but to stop the precedence from being there. |
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Post by Shinko on Jan 1, 2018 14:41:48 GMT -5
It doesn't need a nerf. As Patjade said, its just broken in that its been reversed to do extra damage to everyone except the Wind Rider Wraith instead of the other way around like the other weapons from the chest. All it needs is fixing. Maybe for right now, just for The Wraith Resurgence. However they shouldn't do this for future plots/events (at least ones which involve battling). Because, once again, if they're going to give us HT level BD equipment (even if it only affects event/plot specific opponents) through the step achievements, then what's the point preparing outside of events/plots (aside training)? And, even though I'm easing for now, I still think it should get nerfed, if nothing else but to stop the precedence from being there. Except didn’t the exact same thing happen with Razul in The Lost Desert Plot? An enemy specific weapon isn’t unprecedented, lol. |
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Post by Duke Pikachu on Jan 1, 2018 14:49:38 GMT -5
Razul (and the Neggbreaker) were special cases. They weren't normal enemies, I wouldn't even call them bosses, but rather a puzzle end goal: How do you defeat the super strong big bad? You defeated them by solving one final puzzle which gives you a weapon that OHKOs them.
Right now, the Wraiths we're facing are just normal enemies. You can take them down normally and most can do it.
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Post by Zoey on Jan 1, 2018 15:14:51 GMT -5
As someone who has played a lot of MMOs back in the day, I'm totally used to the concept of powercreep, ie. more and more powerful weapons/abilities over time in order to draw in attention to new content (and thus more money). Granted, battling isn't the main pull of the site (sparkly clothes apparently are), but compared to eons ago when a good weapon was 10 to 11 icons, we've come far.
I think a large part of the issue is BDer's perceived value of HT and Cove weapons due to their price and power. However, with things like Trudy's and the state of the economy today (where things are either worth millions of NP or nothing at all), it has already become significantly easier to get money compared to ten years ago, when I remember spending half the day to even get close to 20,000 NP. Trudy's + Ghoul Catchers alone can net you something like 68,000 NP a day; if you do Food Club, Battledome and Stock Market on top of that (and I'm sure many take advantage of having old accounts to do Food Club), your daily income skyrockets. Although it still takes some time to get something from the HT, it is by far less troublesome than it was back in the day. The most difficult part of having a battle pet nowadays is the grinding and training, which still takes years (although, again, with the relative ease of obtaining NP in modern times, it is significantly easier to get the funds for codestones. Also there are kitchen quests and Faerie Quest Fortune Cookies to help out, too, which overall makes the training process easier).
So my feeling is that HT items don't hold quite the position that they used to, what with both icon inflation and the ease of obtaining them compared to the past. Cove items are still valuable simply because they aren't released anymore but are still powerful, and even the Wand of the Dark Faerie and Illusens Staff are quickly depreciating in price. Yes, I agree, HT items will continue to deflate as long as they keep releasing ultra-powerful weapons like the WPB, and eventually the concept of buying anything from the HT will be a moot point if this sort of pattern holds. But I also think that keeping everything as is will still not help the popularity of the BD. They need to generate interest in plots and new battling content, and one of the standard ways of doing so is making nice things more accessible. It's the same in the MMOs I've played as well--once end-game content is so far high up that newer players find it impossible to catch up, they revamp the quest/leveling system to make it easier for them to catch up. Generally this keeps everyone happy--there's a steady influx of new players to replace old ones who lose interest, and even if the leveling system is easier, it still takes quite a bit of effort to get end-game gear. However, it is ALSO standard that when there is new, harder content, all of your expensive gear from the previous content is rendered moot and worthless, and then you spend a lot of time and effort getting the new "best gear". It's just the nature of those types of games.
So ultimately it boils down to Battlers Who Spent A Lot of Time and Effort vs. Other Players Who Are Not Interested Because It Is So Hard To Get To the Top. Obviously high-tier battlers do not want their things to be so easily accessible (and this is a knee-jerk reaction from me, too, since I was always kind of mad when my past MMO games would render my damage-dealing class moot by releasing an even more damage-dealing class, but otherwise they won't generate interest in that new content), but keep it as it is and the BD will never regain any semblance of its former popularity. But at the same time, if it takes no effort to get nice weapons, then what's the point, right? Point being, not all of us will be happy at the end of the day, regardless of who you listen to.
Now let's take for instance the current meta for HT attack weapons--it is Sword of Ari and Reif, is it not? How long have these weapons been the meta? A few years? Five? I'm not sure; I've only returned to Neo less than 3 years ago, but according to JN this was released in 2011. The thing about the state of BD content not significantly changing is that it gets stale, and people lose interest. Beyond weapon balance, TNT should do something to shake up the meta and generate interest in the BD. Perhaps, like in Pokemon games, some opponents are more sensitive to certain weapons or icons, as they're doing with the Wraiths. Perhaps instead of having one set of 8 weapons that is your "go-to", you could have a bunch of different sets that are more effective against different kinds of opponents, and there is no clear-cut "best set". Something like that, above simply nerfing/not-nerfing weapons.
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Post by Herdy on Jan 1, 2018 16:03:01 GMT -5
It doesn't need a nerf. As Patjade said, its just broken in that its been reversed to do extra damage to everyone except the Wind Rider Wraith instead of the other way around like the other weapons from the chest. All it needs is fixing. Maybe for right now, just for The Wraith Resurgence. However they shouldn't do this for future plots/events (at least ones which involve battling). Because, once again, if they're going to give us HT level BD equipment (even if it only affects event/plot specific opponents) through the step achievements, then what's the point preparing outside of events/plots (aside training)? And, even though I'm easing for now, I still think it should get nerfed, if nothing else but to stop the precedence from being there. Eh, I'd agree if this weapon or the others released placed players in a position to instantly beat challengers they otherwise couldn't. That's not the case. The Wind Rider Wraith's set actually chips out a lot of the Palm Blade's (intended) output. Combined with the easy difficulty of challengers and the general exploitable nature of abilities in new BD, I don't think there are many players who will succeed or fail purely on this weapon. |
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Post by Huntress on Jan 1, 2018 16:09:41 GMT -5
I've been holding out hope for years now that one of the Charity Corners will be about Battledome weapons, because seriously, the weapons market consists of 90% complete crap and the 10% of good weaponry is something you have to magically and mysteriously know about. Dropping more NP on more expensive weapons doesn't cut it, because there are still so many other factors to consider for a balanced set. Just about the only way to do proper Battledoming is meticulous offsite research (or enlisting someone's help on the boards to basically review and recommend a battle set for you, which is still a pretty bottlenecky way to play a part of the site). It's an enormous learning curve where you either paddle around in the shallows with your Scarab Rings and whatnot, or know the BD and icons and stats and faerie abilities inside and out to rise above that level. And if the part of the site is virtually unaccessible without thorough research and offsite help then a large part of the userbase will never bother with it, which isn't what you want when your site is a bit of a dinosaur to begin with. So I can see why they'd want to dish out freebies to incite as many people as possible to get invested in that one hard-to-access aspect of the site. In other words, what Zoey said while I was writing this up xD
What the best way to provide that incentive would be without upsetting the intricate balance of existing weaponry is another question, of course (and also presumes that the team itself knows the intricacies of Battledome stats/weapons/abilities inside and out, which I wouldn't take for granted) but the existing BD system strikes me as a sort of jenga tower that's been built for so long with so many blocks fallen off over time that it's long since reached the point of teetering precariously and can't be changed in any significant way without wreaking havoc on the tower.
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Post by Moni on Jan 1, 2018 17:22:20 GMT -5
Tangential comment: I'm surprised that they didn't give you weaker weapons after we started discovering that soylent purple is neopets. The logic being that you wouldn't want to hurt them too much if you wanted to turn them back--hit them too hard, and they'll still be wraiths. It'd be an interesting thing if a plot required you to use weaker weapons on strong opponents to get points/items--intentionally gimping you and forcing you to have a battle pet while also giving the defensive items *some* use in the Battledome (weak enough weapons means it's harder to 1 hit KO), because they are basically not important in 1P now thanks to faerie abilities.
Which, like... the problem with the Battledome is that it's not fun/it's kind of poorly designed at this point. There's no cool new mechanics you can unlock or anything--like, if the 2P system was working properly, I had access to all the weapons and a good battle pet, I still wouldn't actually battle because it's not interesting.
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Post by Kozma on Jan 6, 2018 5:56:52 GMT -5
Is anyone else having a problem with Snapjaw Wraiths not giving out Ectoplasm? No matter how many times I battle those things I never get any more.
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Post by Fraze on Jan 6, 2018 10:40:22 GMT -5
Is anyone else having a problem with Snapjaw Wraiths not giving out Ectoplasm? No matter how many times I battle those things I never get any more. Apparently there's an overall cap (not a daily limit, but a total limit) for how many Wraith ingredients you can get. You can get 35 of an ingredient (or some number like that), and once you hit that, then you can't get any more of that ingredient. |
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