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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2011 18:36:50 GMT -5
And what if they refuse all attempts at help? They had a choice. :/ Not everyone who goes through those situations grows up to be a killer. There should be an alternative for the seriously mentally ill, yes. Apart from that, though...you have to do something to stop future killings, and prison isn't always the ideal solution.
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Post by Dju on Aug 16, 2011 18:37:52 GMT -5
I agree with Drew, Poldon and Nat, not to mention someone that sells that kind of stuff must have a lot of guts or mental disorders to keep it doing that.
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Post by Tiger on Aug 16, 2011 18:42:26 GMT -5
Absolutely. I've always been positive that if, say, someone were attacking me, I would have no problem killing them to save myself and/or the people I care about. A premeditated attack on a person who's responsible for a great deal of suffering? I'd morally be fine with it, but when push comes to shove I might have difficulty unless I was able to work myself as great a rage as I'd be in if someone actually attacked me.
I very strongly disagree with you on the notion of all people being good. I truly believe there are evil people in this world. They weren't necessarily born evil, but I'm going to quote Hobbes (from the comic Calvin and Hobbes) here and say "I think our actions show what's in our hearts."
As for ripping the soul apart - I'll point out that none of the good guys who killed in those books had their souls ripped apart. I think you're missing that there's a distinction between killing and murder. What Voldemort was doing was killing innocent people, people whose only crime was not being pureblood, or people who stood up against him, or happened to have information he wanted. Killing a dictator or a terrorist leader opens up a moral kettle of fish, I don't deny, but I ultimately would not put it in the same category as murder.
I like Jo's point about euthanasia/"mercy killings", too. While I think in most cases, "mercy-killing" is wrong, there are genuine circumstances where I can see it being morally justifiable (if not legally, but that's a whole other topic =P). I also like what Jo says about letting someone terrible live being more guilt-inducing/soul-tearing. "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2011 18:47:07 GMT -5
Honestly, if killing one person will prevent the death/suffering of many more, then I find killing acceptable. What gives the dictator/arms dealer more of a right to live their life than the hundreds they'll kill? Heck, I'd probably be torn apart more by the hundreds dead to inaction. :/
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Post by Mel ♪ on Aug 16, 2011 18:52:41 GMT -5
Would I? Yes. If doing so will help others, why shouldn't I kill this person?
This person is responsible for death and starvation in countries. Even if they're not directly killing them (taking a gun and shooting people or whatever), they're responsible, meaning that killing them will make at least some difference in this situation, regardless of how big or small that difference is. So I don't see anything stopping me. If killing someone will help against the death and starvation they caused in their country, sure, why not? I see no reason to let them continue living. They're just going to kill more people, and if I can stop that, sure, I will.
Reg. killing tearing up the soul: I don't really believe that - And besides, letting people die in front of you while you know you could stop it probably isn't doing much good for your soul either.
Then again, I've never been particularly nice, so my soul's probably already in bits and pieces xD
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2011 18:59:21 GMT -5
And what if they refuse all attempts at help? They had a choice. :/ Not everyone who goes through those situations grows up to be a killer. There should be an alternative for the seriously mentally ill, yes. Apart from that, though...you have to do something to stop future killings, and prison isn't always the ideal solution. Vengeance is a feeling, and like all feelings it's not something someone chooses to have. And sometimes people can see no other option... Also, it just seems incredibly unfair for a person who has gone through true horrors to just die in the end. It's hopeless and bleak. Basically, it says that once you're traumatized there's no way out. Which isn't true, there's always a way out. In my opinion, forcing a person to get help is better than killing them. Because they'll have an opportunity to live a better life and end up thanking the people who helped them. And those sorts of stories can inspire people all over the world to not be hopeless. If they just die in the end, that's an unnecessary tragedy. And this world really doesn't need any more of those.
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Post by Dju on Aug 16, 2011 19:03:20 GMT -5
And what if they refuse all attempts at help? They had a choice. :/ Not everyone who goes through those situations grows up to be a killer. There should be an alternative for the seriously mentally ill, yes. Apart from that, though...you have to do something to stop future killings, and prison isn't always the ideal solution. Vengeance is a feeling, and like all feelings it's not something someone chooses to have. And sometimes people can see no other option... Also, it just seems incredibly unfair for a person who has gone through true horrors to just die in the end. It's hopeless and bleak. Basically, it says that once you're traumatized there's no way out. Which isn't true, there's always a way out. In my opinion, forcing a person to get help is better than killing them. Because they'll have an opportunity to live a better life and end up thanking the people who helped them. And those sorts of stories can inspire people all over the world to not be hopeless. If they just die in the end, that's an unnecessary tragedy. And this world really doesn't need any more of those. Better killing a 40 year old man quickly and fast rather than watching a one week old baby starve to death.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2011 19:04:18 GMT -5
Vengeance is a feeling, and like all feelings it's not something someone chooses to have. And sometimes people can see no other option... Also, it just seems incredibly unfair for a person who has gone through true horrors to just die in the end. It's hopeless and bleak. Basically, it says that once you're traumatized there's no way out. Which isn't true, there's always a way out. In my opinion, forcing a person to get help is better than killing them. Because they'll have an opportunity to live a better life and end up thanking the people who helped them. And those sorts of stories can inspire people all over the world to not be hopeless. If they just die in the end, that's an unnecessary tragedy. And this world really doesn't need any more of those. Better killing a 40 year old man quickly and fast rather than watching a one week old baby starve to death. No offense, but how is that relevant to what you quoted?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2011 19:06:51 GMT -5
And what if they refuse all attempts at help? They had a choice. :/ Not everyone who goes through those situations grows up to be a killer. There should be an alternative for the seriously mentally ill, yes. Apart from that, though...you have to do something to stop future killings, and prison isn't always the ideal solution. Vengeance is a feeling, and like all feelings it's not something someone chooses to have. And sometimes people can see no other option... Also, it just seems incredibly unfair for a person who has gone through true horrors to just die in the end. It's hopeless and bleak. Basically, it says that once you're traumatized there's no way out. Which isn't true, there's always a way out. In my opinion, forcing a person to get help is better than killing them. Because they'll have an opportunity to live a better life and end up thanking the people who helped them. And those sorts of stories can inspire people all over the world to not be hopeless. If they just die in the end, that's an unnecessary tragedy. And this world really doesn't need any more of those. They can feel vengeance, but it's their choice if they want to slaughter complete strangers. And OK, yes, it's not fair for someone to just die (but hey, everyone dies in the end), but it's also not fair to let them live if that guarantees that others will go through true horrors and just die in the end. ^^; Not in my opinion, at least. If they're killing others and the only way to stop the slaughter is to kill them, you'd best kill them to save innocents. Example time! How do you force Colonel Gaddaffi to get help? He's in a position of power and he's convinced he's right.
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Post by Dju on Aug 16, 2011 19:08:48 GMT -5
Better killing a 40 year old man quickly and fast rather than watching a one week old baby starve to death. No offense, but how is that relevant to what you quoted? Relevant like in my point of view it's much more ethic to kill the man behind all this (Who is obviously a rich grown up, swimming in gold for all the guns he sold thinking he is smart thanks to his life experience) instead of all children dying in Somalia even before they can talk, or worse...open their eyes.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2011 19:13:46 GMT -5
Vengeance is a feeling, and like all feelings it's not something someone chooses to have. And sometimes people can see no other option... Also, it just seems incredibly unfair for a person who has gone through true horrors to just die in the end. It's hopeless and bleak. Basically, it says that once you're traumatized there's no way out. Which isn't true, there's always a way out. In my opinion, forcing a person to get help is better than killing them. Because they'll have an opportunity to live a better life and end up thanking the people who helped them. And those sorts of stories can inspire people all over the world to not be hopeless. If they just die in the end, that's an unnecessary tragedy. And this world really doesn't need any more of those. They can feel vengeance, but it's their choice if they want to slaughter complete strangers. And OK, yes, it's not fair for someone to just die (but hey, everyone dies in the end), but it's also not fair to let them live if that guarantees that others will go through true horrors and just die in the end. ^^; Not in my opinion, at least. If they're killing others and the only way to stop the slaughter is to kill them, you'd best kill them to save innocents. Example time! How do you force Colonel Gaddaffi to get help? He's in a position of power and he's convinced he's right. I wasn't really talking about him, I was talking about people who were tortured into madness. And if those people are pulled out of the pit of darkness they were forcefully pushed into, doesn't that guarantee that they WON'T hurt any more people? I mean, if you take what I just said literally, then killing is the same thing as leaving them to die alone, surrounded by manifested bad memories laughing at their fate. Which just makes me angry. On the other hand, if you pull them away from these evil things, then when they eventually do die they'll be surrounded by crying family members rather than malevolent memories. (Now, I know that there aren't really evil spirits who laugh at people, but these people would probably feel like there are, and it would be very real to them.) Wouldn't the latter be better for everyone? EDIT: Dju, my quote was about traumatized people who are haunted by memories, not people like the leader you're talking about, who are morally wrong and yet very happy. That being said...I wonder if he does have any family members. I have to think about Caligula's daughter. My history teacher told me that when they killed Caligula they also killed his 4-year-old child. Which outrages me, because she was completely innocent and had nothing to do with anything!
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Post by Dju on Aug 16, 2011 19:25:15 GMT -5
They can feel vengeance, but it's their choice if they want to slaughter complete strangers. And OK, yes, it's not fair for someone to just die (but hey, everyone dies in the end), but it's also not fair to let them live if that guarantees that others will go through true horrors and just die in the end. ^^; Not in my opinion, at least. If they're killing others and the only way to stop the slaughter is to kill them, you'd best kill them to save innocents. Example time! How do you force Colonel Gaddaffi to get help? He's in a position of power and he's convinced he's right. I wasn't really talking about him, I was talking about people who were tortured into madness. And if those people are pulled out of the pit of darkness they were forcefully pushed into, doesn't that guarantee that they WON'T hurt any more people? I mean, if you take what I just said literally, then killing is the same thing as leaving them to die alone, surrounded by manifested bad memories laughing at their fate. Which just makes me angry. On the other hand, if you pull them away from these evil things, then when they eventually do die they'll be surrounded by crying family members rather than malevolent memories. (Now, I know that there aren't really evil spirits who laugh at people, but these people would probably feel like there are, and it would be very real to them.) Wouldn't the latter be better for everyone? EDIT: Dju, my quote was about traumatized people who are haunted by memories, not people like the leader you're talking about, who are morally wrong and yet very happy. That being said...I wonder if he does have any family members. I have to think about Caligula's daughter. My history teacher told me that when they killed Caligula they also killed his 4-year-old child. Which outrages me, because she was completely innocent and had nothing to do with anything! "My history teacher told me that when they killed Caligula they also killed his 4-year-old child. Which outrages me, because she was completely innocent and had nothing to do with anything!" Same applies to this person selling armory, children, families, parents are being murdered by this person! Ad, let's say hyphotetically, killing him/her would solve everything, no more armory, no more way to stop UN's cars getting to the people and handing them food, would you kill it? O_e *eyetwitch*
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Post by Nimras on Aug 16, 2011 19:29:47 GMT -5
Just a quick pop in here, everyone. Please remember to stick to the play nice and to not invest yourself emotionally and start fighting. This is a friendly debate. People aren't going to agree with you, and that's a good thing because it means they're thinking for themselves and coming to their own conclusions.
This is all hypothetical, no one here is going to actually go around and start killing people as a way to save the world.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2011 19:32:25 GMT -5
Just a quick pop in here, everyone. Please remember to stick to the play nice and to not invest yourself emotionally and start fighting. This is a friendly debate. People aren't going to agree with you, and that's a good thing because it means they're thinking for themselves and coming to their own conclusions. This is all hypothetical, no one here is going to actually go around and start killing people as a way to save the world. I know that. I was just a bit upset because Dju wasn't really responding to my argument when she quoted it. She was starting a new one. No offense meant to ANYONE, but if you want to bring something new up quote something that is related or just don't quote at all.
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Post by Dju on Aug 16, 2011 19:34:57 GMT -5
Just a quick pop in here, everyone. Please remember to stick to the play nice and to not invest yourself emotionally and start fighting. This is a friendly debate. People aren't going to agree with you, and that's a good thing because it means they're thinking for themselves and coming to their own conclusions. This is all hypothetical, no one here is going to actually go around and start killing people as a way to save the world. I know that. I was just a bit upset because Dju wasn't really responding to my argument when she quoted it. She was starting a new one. No offense meant to ANYONE, but if you want to bring something new up quote something that is related or just don't quote at all. But how come it's not related? ._. It's all about that, hyphotatically killing or not a man and saying your reasons.
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