The fate of the Guild boards

[Shoichi Kobayashi]

Woah, this is definitely the most active thread I've seen here since I joined back in february. Good job, guys XD

Here's the way I see things, in no particular order of importance:

1. re: Initiative - Sometimes the people with the drive to do stuff are not the people who can easily come up with the ideas. I have a lot of drive, as some of you know, but I had to talk to Hunty and others to get ideas of what to do - now I have the ninja practice threads and my art thread in addition to my dojo RP. Those of us with ideas should be sharing them at every opportunity.

2. re: Roleplays vs. non-roleplays - I really see this as a moot argument. If you have a RP idea, start an RP. If you have a non-RP idea, start whatever that happens to be. Let people join whatever they find interesting. Natural selection will deal with it, probably.

3. re: removing sub-boards - emphatic yes. There's a huge psychological effect to being in one place, all the time, where you can see new threads and thereby have proof of activity. Activity breeds activity, as some people have basically been saying. More than anything else what will cause newbies to stay is activity, if only because they know they're not alone and will likely, probably find *something* they find interesting.

4. re: guild barriers - ditch them as much as humanly possible. Even if we had greater numbers, you don't want to stand in the way of interacting. I promise you that people will find ways to do stuff in private or semiprivate if that's what they really want to do... it might not even be on the NTWF itself, it might be via chat or some other medium.

5. re: Guilds board itself - to be clear, I'd vote get rid of sub boards but leave the actual guild board where it is. I do not want it to be harder to find. The links on my websites point directly to the guilds board but the average person coming to the NTWF is likely not going to have that benefit.

6. re: ninja guild - while I would rather you didn't remove it, it's not like doing so would affect me. Just saying that for perspective's sake.

[Stal]

Jun 19, 2009 10:10:44 GMT -5 Huntress said:

Fact: if anyone ever asks me what's going on in Mod Squad, I'll point them in the direction of this thread. Except this has more active people than MS most of the time, so a big argument is achieved even without me having to go against Stal x3

...that often.

Oh hush. XP

Jun 18, 2009 22:37:17 GMT -5 Stal said:

Well, you have a bit of the wrong idea. No one's killing guilds. I raised the point that to enforce the New Guild Creation rules, well, half the current guilds don't even fit that. It was more to illustrate the point than to say "Rarr, those guilds will die!"

As far as I'm concerned, each of the current guilds has long proven its activity, plain and solid. In GW2, PFA and Vyt were the only people who remained constantly active on the ninja side, and carried a strong plot throughout all those eight months. If that's not activity, I don't know what is. A big guild with dwindling seven members doesn't get near this. Which in essence also means that I'm agreeing with your points about guildmaking restrictions, but I never said my opinions were nailed down >> (At the same time, it is easier for people to stay constantly active when they have a big guild with a big lore and a long member-full history to back them up. It's like one small person with a big anime-esque semi-transparent demon spirit floating behind their back giving them power, if you follow me here.)

XD I was going to say thanks for making my point for me. And again, I was not (let me emphasize NOT) advocating getting rid of current guilds. It was stated to illustrate how the restrictions are arbitrary and even current guilds don't fit it. And as you just pointed out, 2 people can do a lot for a guild.

It rather looks like the main concern here is the loss of organization: new guilds all over the place, things getting confusing, the aura of officiality getting lost, stickies popping in and popping out. That's actually a genuine issue to be addressed, gents. The way it seems to me, the current six guilds are solid stickies, to be left on the Guilds frontpage for now and all eternity regardless of activity (and you'll have to come up with something very solid to counter this, because all those six guilds have gone through fire, flames, sweat and blood over the last three years, and brought this place where it is now). New stickies may be added and taken down as the situation sees fit (and it's actually very much not easy to get to the point of stickying a new guild, because due to those last three years of sweat and blood, it'd take some serious backstraining activity for any new guild to reach the level of the current guilds, like constant activity in GWs). Sounds shiny?

And yes, the actual problem of all sorts of guilds of hatmakers and whatnot is also there. Guilds aren't about what you do, but what you are. At the same time, there also needs to be something for you to do (which is why a Furry guild was voted down way back; what'd they do besides sit around and be fuzzy?) The lines between guilds and clubs aren't all too clear, and may get increasingly blurred as anyone can create a guild that overlaps with the rest any old how, which in turn would make it confusing for newcomers as to which guilds are okay to create, and then we'll just get spam, and Hunty will get very unpleasant when she has to sort all this out.

Granted, this probably is overthinking, because there really hasn't been a proposal for a new guild for ages now, and those that have cropped up haven't generated any interest. But it's better to think this out now than be up to our necks in deep doodoo sometime in the future and go 'um, we might want to rearrange this system again'.

The only thing I really want to say is that if you have a sticky for each guild, just the current ones, you're going to crowd out that front board. 6 guild stickies + rules + say 3 RP threads + estimate 4 threads for summer olympics + Guild Shop Wars = 15. That's 75% of the front page and I'm giving some conservative estimates. It's going to get crowded out so fast.

I recommend keeping the sticky count to just 1 that will have links to the other guild threads. If they happen to slip on to page 2 or 3 after a few days, no big deal, no problem posting again. But I think that stickying all of them will just choke out that front page too much.

Anyway, I've made my points. You're the mistress of the guilds as I see it (Rider, too), and know them better than I do. Though I think pretty much most of its been decided in favor of Main Board Less Subboards with more than not for removing the restrictions and seeing what happens...

[Deleted]

*cough* There's going to be a lot more than four threads for the Ultimate Summer Creative Competition. I need 16 threads, not including the current one which was just for gauging interest. And that was after I scaled back a bit. *cough*

Speaking of, who should I PM about my plans/getting clearance for things? *isn't sure which mod to refer to*

[Huntress]

Jun 19, 2009 11:43:22 GMT -5 Stal said:

The only thing I really want to say is that if you have a sticky for each guild, just the current ones, you're going to crowd out that front board. 6 guild stickies + rules + say 3 RP threads + estimate 4 threads for summer olympics + Guild Shop Wars = 15. That's 75% of the front page and I'm giving some conservative estimates. It's going to get crowded out so fast.

I recommend keeping the sticky count to just 1 that will have links to the other guild threads. If they happen to slip on to page 2 or 3 after a few days, no big deal, no problem posting again. But I think that stickying all of them will just choke out that front page too much.

Anyway, I've made my points. You're the mistress of the guilds as I see it (Rider, too), and know them better than I do. Though I think pretty much most of its been decided in favor of Main Board Less Subboards with more than not for removing the restrictions and seeing what happens...

Arguably true, although if the Guilds main board really ends up literally crowded with active threads from top to bottom and leaking to the second page, this is the day when you'll see me crying happy tears and giving everyone free candy that you'll probably get bills for as soon as I get over the soppy moment. I'm mostly advocating a sticky for each current guild in order to retain the HQ appearances. Because the clubhouse aspect is inportant, and while I'm all for general integration, the differentiation between guilds is also important; that's what keeps us, well, us.

'course, at the same time I'm also a mod with a general dislike for clutter, so I'd probably suggest going with six stickies for now and if the guilds really explode in constant activity that lasts for months to come, we can always edit that later. (Although checking page two really wouldn't kill me xD)

Twocents: speaking realistically, sixteen threads going on at the same time doesn't much sound like they'll all get equal interest, especially considering that the guild membership base has never been particularly big. So I'd foresee some natural selection in the activity of all those threads. One way or another, you don't need modly clearance for any forum events. If there's interest for an event, you're free to start it.

[Deleted]

Why can't there be a couple of sub boards, one for RPs and another for general guild events?

[Stal]

XD We're just now clearing off boards... I don't think we want to start new ones. Let's see if there is a gigantic need for subboards before we start on that approach again.

[Killix]

If you're that worried about people wanting to make guilds that don't fit the guild atmosphere... Then there can simply be guild creation guidelines in place. Simple as that.


As far as the stickying thing I brought up in MS... perhaps just sticky the current main guilds now... and any guild that explodes in activity/ members can earn a sticky aswell?

I think the idea of earning your guild HQ thread sticky is pretty good, anyway. The main guilds stay stickied forever... any great new guilds get their chance to become a main guild... and any guilds that nobody likes fall into obscurity. XD

[Deleted]

I made a really long-winded post in typical Wolf fashion, but I'll save you all my rehashed arguments (all of which I said...was said by others the moment after I wrote it--curse R&Ring!). ~_^


The consensus-- I don't like it, but I can live with it. It's like, a two-state solution in exchange for peace, but far less sacrificial. Besides, if it gets us permanently off life support, we'll all come to love it sooner or later. I'll probably be later, mainly on account of my leaving the country in about...four days. :headdesk:

Why does everything have to happen just before I leave?


Thread markers-- It'll be necessary, no doubt, but to put "Knights" or "Pirates" or even, as Kit suggested (and would probably work, if nothing else will), [KNT] or [PRT] at the start of a thread just seems tiresome to me. And, really, it may end up being a pain to search the subjects for the appropriate heading, when finding it might take a couple pages if all the present guild threads are moved together (see my next point).

Ergo, I propose we all pay a little more attention to those message icons up beneath the subject that most people tend to ignore. If we could add the guild shields to the list of icons, we could just mark guild threads accordingly. Not only would this get rid of annoying tags, it'd also beautify and diversify the Guilds board. ^_^


Old threads-- If there is one thing that would devastate me, it would be seeing all of the old threads deleted. As Hunty said, we've put three years of blood, sweat, and spinal fluid into these guilds, and to see it all scrapped would kill everything we've done for them.

On the other hand, I can't imagine all of these old threads--some of which are locked--being post-marked with the proper guild headings and then just left to murk in the mess of the guild board. That's just not fair. They could be archived on a specific Guilds-only archive, maybe a subboard in the Guilds board to keep them in easy reach, or they could be moved to Memory Lane, but whatever's done, I don't want them deleted. Not now, not ever.


Guild hubs-- I agree that six+ stickies will be a bit much. I propose two solutions, in response to Stal's original suggestion:

1) Guild hubs by category: Guild HQs, Guild RPs, other Guild events
2) The six main guilds and then a seventh sticky for all events.

And a third for good measure:

3) We take the six main guilds and require each of them to be a general hub for all of their individual threads, roleplays, discussions, etc., in addition to being the general welcome thread (and general/guild RP discussion?) for that guild.


Character bios-- I think most guilds have a character bio thread. I propose these are merged into a single sticky (and by merged I mean: a new thread be made to post profiles, locking the others after they've had sufficient time for all their posts to be quoted, copied, and pasted into the new one). Not only would this keep it from being redone every Guild Wars, it would keep everything together and prevent us from needing half a dozen, if not more, profile threads.

If we can use the guild shields as message icons, we can even mark our characters by guild to make it even more user-friendly. Some people might not like the idea of posting per character, not roleplayer, but really, who cares? It's a reference thread, after all.


Guild requirements-- I thought we all knew these were for aesthetics only and nothing more? (So said by the guilder already on the inside. :headdesk:) In short, I pretty much agree with the consensus here, that getting rid of them would do no harm.


Small guilds-- Can we honestly say that the active members of the BIG guilds would be any more numerous than the active members of the new small ones? It's like, the voting population compared to the non-voting population. Democratic or Republican, the only ones that matter are the ones who vote, not the ones who affiliate and do nothing.

Ooh, political analogy for the win!


New Members-- And if all of this is being done to encourage new members, we really, really need an FAQ or something to get them into the guilds when they get here. There used to be the general sign-up thread while the guilds were password-protected, that worked for what was needed, but having six+ welcome threads? That in itself can be intimidating for prospective members!

So, in addition to the other stickies, we need a "Start Here" thread that explains everything you need to know about guilding (back off you pirates--I said guilding not gilding!) and how to join the guilds. This Start Here thread might also make a great place to put the HQs hub if we opt to have as few stickies as possible or to put some suggestions for newcomers to roleplay who may want to join their guild roleplay but not know where to start. There's many possibilities for what could be done with it, so why limit ourselves now?


Conclusion-- That's pretty much my thoughts on all the issues thus far discussed, so except for being really uneasy about missing all the changes while I'm in Israel, I'm comfortable with most of what's been said. Granted, I wish there were still a way I could participate further in the revamp, but so long as I have a Knights Guild to return to, I think I'll survive. If then I can resume my stance as impromptu guild admin (as opposed to elected monarch, of course) and keep running our welcome thread and cataloging our RP/miscellaneous data, I'd have all I could ask for. :)

Jun 19, 2009 12:42:04 GMT -5 @twocent said:

*cough* There's going to be a lot more than four threads for the Ultimate Summer Creative Competition. I need 16 threads, not including the current one which was just for gauging interest. And that was after I scaled back a bit. *cough*

Speaking of, who should I PM about my plans/getting clearance for things? *isn't sure which mod to refer to*

Maybe it should be scaled back a bit more? I'm not sure if we have enough guild activity to sustain sixteen new activities, so it might be best to hold some off for later so that they don't die now and lose their excitement. Are you getting what I'm saying? I'm not sure if I am, so I want to make certain you are. :)

Rephrase: Instead of eating all sixteen cookies now, eat one or two and see if your palette's up for another one. That way, we don't put all ours cookies in one basket and risk the Big Bad Wolf stealing them all while we walk to Grandma Hunty's house. ;]

And if you do have a fair number of activities, maybe you should make an Olympic hub that can link to the others. Who knows, that could be sticky number ten. ~_^

[Stal]

Not sure about the icons. And don't forget that any newer guilds that come along won't have icons. The tags work great, and you can use CTRL+F and search for the tags that matter to you...

No one was recommending deleting all older threads. Those would be combined into this main one. No need to worry about that.

I think the idea behind the main guild thread was that it'd serve as a good area for those kinds of discussions. But trust me, from experience, you don't want one thread serving as too much. All the mods can pretty much agree with this one. XD Don't try and cram it all into one thread.

The requirements being discussed weren't about who can join a guild, but about who can create a guild. Guild creation requirements.

[Killix]

The guild banners were all made by... Strife, I think...?

but that doesn't mean that a new guild can't make their own. :3
I'd assume it would simply be pasted on the first post of the guild's HQ thread... or if there's a stickied guild list thread, the banners could go there as link banners. *nod*


EDIT: wait, you were probably talking about the guild badge thingies... *self-facepalm*

[Elcie]

Just have to say, Wolf, that I really like the idea of a combined character bios thread. So many people have multiple characters for their different guilds, who sometimes end up interacting in backstory or in RP... it just seems like a good idea to divide by player rather than guild, if that makes any sense at all.

Then each guild could have a roster list of names only, with the names each linking to the person's bio post. Same effect, takes up much less space.

If it gets too cluttery, too, we could add a sub-board like Splatterboard's Dramatis Personae.

[Stal]

When would everyone like to see these changes made?

[Deleted]

Jun 19, 2009 19:43:29 GMT -5 Stal said:

Not sure about the icons. And don't forget that any newer guilds that come along won't have icons. The tags work great, and you can use CTRL+F and search for the tags that matter to you...

I hadn't even thought of that! Yes, that would work. It'd still be cool if we could use the badges though. :)

I think the idea behind the main guild thread was that it'd serve as a good area for those kinds of discussions. But trust me, from experience, you don't want one thread serving as too much. All the mods can pretty much agree with this one. XD Don't try and cram it all into one thread.

Well, the Knights Guild pretty much only has one thread that we actively use outside the roleplay other than welcoming thread. I suppose, though, if things work as intended and make the guild more active, our relatively inactive practices shouldn't be used a basis for what to expect when more people join the, erm, crowd.

The requirements being discussed weren't about who can join a guild, but about who can create a guild. Guild creation requirements.

I know. Did I, uh, imply otherwise...? My apologies. *rereads* Yeah, so it seems I did. It started with your comments that those requirements are arbitrary anyways, so that's why it seemed I was only talking about those. lol.

Jun 19, 2009 21:50:02 GMT -5 Elcie said:

Just have to say, Wolf, that I really like the idea of a combined character bios thread. So many people have multiple characters for their different guilds, who sometimes end up interacting in backstory or in RP... it just seems like a good idea to divide by player rather than guild, if that makes any sense at all.

Then each guild could have a roster list of names only, with the names each linking to the person's bio post. Same effect, takes up much less space.

Something similar was done with the Guild Wars II profile thread. That should definitely work again here.

Jun 19, 2009 21:58:59 GMT -5 Stal said:

When would everyone like to see these changes made?

Would it be unkind to say after I get back?

No, really, I trust you all to do what's best for the guilds, so I'll just try not to think about what'll await me when I get back while I'm still away.... Unless you guys want to do it tomorrow?

If anything, just give me a heads up ASAP if there's any changes I should make to the present Knights Guild welcome thread before I leave so when the changes are made, it's all ready and set to go. *thumbs up*

[Elcie]

It'd be nice if you could give the guilds some time to get on their feet again before merging... getting "HQ" threads ready and sending out mass PMs to collect active members, that sort of thing? So maybe a week or two?

[Ginz ❤]

At the very least, give everyone this whole weekend to catch up with this discussion. I mean, I don't know if there are other unfortunate people who (like me) aren't on vacation yet, but if I was any better at not procrastinating, I'd still hadn't read thi thread because of school stuff that should come first. XD;