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Post by Fraze on Jun 18, 2009 21:13:38 GMT -5
Seems like option two has a fair following, and I have to say that's the one I find most preferable. From a purely visual standpoint, having all the threads from all the guilds visible in one place will make it much simpler to see what has been posted on, and may encourage posting between guilds.
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Post by Cyborg on Jun 18, 2009 21:27:57 GMT -5
Stal no I think what's happening is you're being a bigot, and if you don't know what that means, look it up. If we allow the smaller guilds, yes there would be newcomers, but there are still a few problems with your idea. One being, with more small Guilds, even if the Guilds don`t die within the first couple of weeks, they will still die much faster than the current guilds. A second being, with the massive amounts of small guilds, there will be mass confusing and will quickly get out of hand.
Now as for getting rid of guilds, there is no need for that, these guilds have been fine until recently, but that`s because there`s little activity on all the guilds. And I will guarentee if the Mercs are gotten rid of, I will not be in any guilds anymore. The mercs are the fun, almost rule free guild and I love the little missions, and such. They are the wild card guild which also makes it fun for things like GWs.
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Post by Dan on Jun 18, 2009 21:31:35 GMT -5
Hey, there's no need for name-calling. Please remember to keep it civil.
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Post by Shadaras on Jun 18, 2009 21:36:38 GMT -5
Cyborg -- I can see your reasoning, but I don't think you're right. First, I believe that anything that attracts new people here, whether it be freedom to join whatever guild they like or the opportunity to create a new guild with some of their friends, is a very good thing. Second, small new guilds may die, but so what? Do we lose anything by letting them come and pass? I don't think so. Third, there probably won't be much confusion from new guilds. It'll be more likely to come from the six current guilds being in one board. But even so, as long as each thread is correctly tagged by guild (Knights Roleplay, say, or Mercs Hiring Thread), all you'd need to do is find the threads from the guild(s) you're interested in, and there you go.
Also, nobody ever really said that the Mercs would be gotten rid of. What's more likely to happen is that the restrictions on creating and entering guilds will be dropped, 'cause nobody wants the guilds to die if there's a way to keep them alive. I'm fairly sure I can say that without being contested, anyway.
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Post by KitClairvoyance on Jun 18, 2009 22:03:21 GMT -5
Stal no I think what's happening is you're being a bigot, and if you don't know what that means, look it up. If we allow the smaller guilds, yes there would be newcomers, but there are still a few problems with your idea. One being, with more small Guilds, even if the Guilds don`t die within the first couple of weeks, they will still die much faster than the current guilds. A second being, with the massive amounts of small guilds, there will be mass confusing and will quickly get out of hand. :/ .. the word bigot means a person who takes offence to the ideas of people that don't agree with him. Stal just wants to understand your viewpoint - that's hardly bigotry. Small guilds won't die out any quicker than the current large guilds (dude, is it even possible to die out quicker than they have? xD ); and even if they did, it doesn't even matter. People will just jump onto the next bandwagon. Small guilds also don't mean any less activity. The smaller the guild, the tighter the bond, and the higher the guild spirit overall. It means more rivalry, and more love for the guild. And there won't be any mass-confusion. It's really easy a system to implement (easier than the current system, since the current one has to go through the mods before it comes back to the members): Keep a listing of all guilds and their tags (tags being three letter combinations that stand for the guild), and just make sure each thread is tagged. So if the ninja tag is NIN, all ninja threads would be like "[NIN] Ninja Lore and Resources" (personally, I'd love to see that thread. But I'm no ninja, just curious. >>  Now as for getting rid of guilds, there is no need for that, these guilds have been fine until recently, but that`s because there`s little activity on all the guilds. And I will guarentee if the Mercs are gotten rid of, I will not be in any guilds anymore. The mercs are the fun, almost rule free guild and I love the little missions, and such. They are the wild card guild which also makes it fun for things like GWs. Who is to say you can't still have the Mercs guild? Just because the board is gone, doesn't mean the guild spirit has to go with it. :/ |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2009 22:10:43 GMT -5
Small guilds won't die out any quicker than the current large guilds (dude, is it even possible to die out quicker than they have? xD ); and even if they did, it doesn't even matter. People will just jump onto the next bandwagon. I don't necessarily think that's true. Instability sucks. I know I wouldn't put any effort into something if I thought it could easily be gone in a short period of time. And I'd have no desire to just go onto the next thing, knowing it could, and probably would, die just as quickly, or more quickly, as the previous one. If guilds changed and died all the time, I'd just not bother with them altogether. |
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Post by Shadaras on Jun 18, 2009 22:15:12 GMT -5
Small guilds won't die out any quicker than the current large guilds (dude, is it even possible to die out quicker than they have? xD ); and even if they did, it doesn't even matter. People will just jump onto the next bandwagon. I don't necessarily think that's true. Instability sucks. I know I wouldn't put any effort into something if I thought it could easily be gone in a short period of time. And I'd have no desire to just go onto the next thing, knowing it could, and probably would, die just as quickly, or more quickly, as the previous one. If guilds changed and died all the time, I'd just not bother with them altogether. That's kinda the point of this discussion. We're trying to figure out how to keep the guilds stable and alive. Do you have any thoughts on how we might be able to accomplish this? |
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Post by KitClairvoyance on Jun 18, 2009 22:20:32 GMT -5
Small guilds won't die out any quicker than the current large guilds (dude, is it even possible to die out quicker than they have? xD ); and even if they did, it doesn't even matter. People will just jump onto the next bandwagon. I don't necessarily think that's true. Instability sucks. I know I wouldn't put any effort into something if I thought it could easily be gone in a short period of time. And I'd have no desire to just go onto the next thing, knowing it could, and probably would, die just as quickly, or more quickly, as the previous one. If guilds changed and died all the time, I'd just not bother with them altogether. xD ..you're going about it the wrong way around. Guilds die because people don't put effort into them, not people don't put efforts into guilds because they die. If you really liked your guild, then it wouldn't die. It'd be stable. The advantage of small guilds is that if you liked it, you'll be able to keep it alive, as opposed to the current monolithic structure, where if a couple people lose interest, everyone gets dragged down with them. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2009 22:21:12 GMT -5
I like the idea of putting the guilds into just one main thread, but I don't think you should allow people to make and kill guilds whenever they feel like it because that'd cause instability and it'd be super, super confusing, which would turn off new people from joining, not invite people in. And yes, I think people wouldn't put effort into those guilds, especially when you're all going, "Who cares if they die?" I also think the guild activities should play more the forum members' strengths. I don't really do a lot because I hate roleplaying (it bores me and I can't get into it). So why not create other contests such as art, poetry, video? Or do one of those picture things where everyone creates a square - each guild could make one, have all members contribute, and then the final products could compete for some arbitrary title of victory that you can lord over people. xDD Because those make people happy. *ponders more* But yeah, I'm against the small guild thing, since the only argument I saw for it was to attract more people, but people don't like confusion and instability, which is the only thing tons of small guilds coming and going would contribute. Unless you want an excuse to eliminate this part of the forum altogether, in which case, you should totally do it. People aren't stupid. We're capable of figuring out when the horse is dying, and it'd be hard to convince people to keep riding something that when you're already saying, "First sign of dying, get off and I'll shoot it for you."  And that's completely backwards: small guild, two people drop off, guild dies. Gigantic guild, two people drop off, no one even notices. |
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Post by Stal on Jun 18, 2009 22:37:17 GMT -5
Well, you have a bit of the wrong idea. No one's killing guilds. I raised the point that to enforce the New Guild Creation rules, well, half the current guilds don't even fit that. It was more to illustrate the point than to say "Rarr, those guilds will die!"
The other thing about dying guilds is just that people are being honest: no activity leads to guild death. Much the same way that if you don't feed an animal, it's going to die, too. If you want the guild to live, you put effort into it. Larger guilds, people put it on everyone else to do stuff (free rider problem), and as experience has already demonstrated, that leaves one or two people trying to organize it for everyone. If those one or two people get tired or stop, the guild dies.
If you allow people to make guilds as they want, they'll make guilds and put effort into it. If they don't, we're not going to kill the guild. It's just a natural response that the guild will die off. In which case it doesn't really matter. It's not mass confusion or instability.... not any more so than the normal kind of guilds are unstable.
As well, the argument about bringing new people into guilds is a HUGE point. We're trying to encourage people to start joining, and if that was a barrier to them before, then why is that a bad thing to take it away? It encourages new people to come in, it encourages activity, and it doesn't destroy activity in the other guilds because it doesn't change a thing as far as they go.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2009 22:48:36 GMT -5
Haha, whatever. It's not like you don't have the entire Neopets guilds to prove that making your own guild doesn't mean activity and that even trying to get a few guilds to do things together is confusing. If you wanna allow tiny guilds, then good for you. I suppose this forum is pretty known for liking things to be convoluted and confusing, as it is.  Anyway, just had a brilliant idea, in my very biased opinion. What about a summer olympics competition-esque thing? Where guild members can compete in a variety of activities - the art thing I mentioned earlier as well as an individual art competition under various themes, poems about your guild members/guild feats/guild pwnsomeness for no specific reason, videos for those who are inclined to make them, comics that could run the length of the competition with commentary on things going on, roleplays for those who like them and it could be roleplays between guilds as well as a story telling-esque competition where each guild comes up with a story, and it'd be a totally cool time to do the "make your profile into an impersonation of this theme" thing again. And people can win arbitrary trophies, and there can be a scoreboard where you can see which guild is in the lead, and a board for taunting the competitors (like the Make Some Noise game for YYB) and it can be obnoxious in a fun way. And no one can complain because we combine all the cool things together, and guild members can opt to support the guild through the activities that they like the best. Anyway, that's my stroke of, "how to involve people in guild activities" brilliance. If you hate the idea, then you're on your own for finding something better.  |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2009 23:01:56 GMT -5
I don't want to get insulted for voicing my opinion, so I'll make it quick and then run away.
I think we've all agreed that merging the sub boards is a good idea. As for the guild creation rules, I'm sort of on the fence. I think the old creation rules shouldn't apply. I also think that we need to nurture the current guilds because it would be a shame to let any of them rot. At the same time, we shouldn't be averse to new guilds popping up. I think that guilds should be freely created, but that their potential needs to be gaged. Maybe a survey of how interested people would be, or something. Iunno.
Besides, whats to stop us from merging, getting a bit more active with the current six, and then revisiting the question? We can focus our efforts for the time being and then figure this out later on, once we've breathed some life back. Who knows, maybe no one will even want to create a new guild?
Larissa, I think your idea is wonderful. Like a creative olympics. I wouldn't be able to do the art ones, but if there were a wide selection of 'events' then people can enter the ones in which they're strong. xD
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Post by Dan on Jun 18, 2009 23:25:36 GMT -5
A point on the issue of new guilds: when's the last time we've had a request for a new guild? It's been quite a while, I know that. I think even if we deregulated that aspect of it, there won't be a sudden swarm of new guilds. And I can only think of a handful of suggested guilds over the years anyways, so I'm not sure the amount of concern we're giving this issue is entirely valid. I don't think there's -that- much interest in new guilds as it is.
Just something to think about, at least.
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Post by Fraze on Jun 18, 2009 23:26:23 GMT -5
Haha, whatever. It's not like you don't have the entire Neopets guilds to prove that making your own guild doesn't mean activity and that even trying to get a few guilds to do things together is confusing. If you wanna allow tiny guilds, then good for you. I suppose this forum is pretty known for liking things to be convoluted and confusing, as it is. Anyway, just had a brilliant idea, in my very biased opinion. What about a summer olympics competition-esque thing? Where guild members can compete in a variety of activities - the art thing I mentioned earlier as well as an individual art competition under various themes, poems about your guild members/guild feats/guild pwnsomeness for no specific reason, videos for those who are inclined to make them, comics that could run the length of the competition with commentary on things going on, roleplays for those who like them and it could be roleplays between guilds as well as a story telling-esque competition where each guild comes up with a story, and it'd be a totally cool time to do the "make your profile into an impersonation of this theme" thing again. And people can win arbitrary trophies, and there can be a scoreboard where you can see which guild is in the lead, and a board for taunting the competitors (like the Make Some Noise game for YYB) and it can be obnoxious in a fun way. And no one can complain because we combine all the cool things together, and guild members can opt to support the guild through the activities that they like the best. Anyway, that's my stroke of, "how to involve people in guild activities" brilliance. If you hate the idea, then you're on your own for finding something better. Sounds like a fantastic idea. Now make it happen. I'm being completely serious. Even though this has only been mentioned in passing a few times, it's one of the biggest things holding the guilds back: everyone is willing to go along with new activities but hardly anyone is STARTING these new activities. If you're willing to put in the time and effort to put together a Guild Olympics, more power to you, I'm sure it will be a great hit. If you want help setting it up, PM me and I'll do whatever I can to help. But just talking about it won't get us anywhere, we need to start things. I've found that once these guild activities get off the ground, they can carry themselves without much supervision. If it sounds like I'm just blowing hot air--just today, I decided to stop waiting around for people to organize Guild Shop Wars and make it happen. I've already got two other people from other guilds ready to make guild shops (big thanks to both of you, you know who you are!), so I'm hoping it will take off within the week. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2009 23:35:14 GMT -5
Haha, I wouldn't mind putting it together (after all, it's easy-ish to make decisions if you're arguing with yourself. "Should we do a roleplay competition?" "Why, yes, another brilliant suggestion, as usual." xDD), so long as more than two people are actually interested in it. ^^;
*ish brainstorming already*
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neo username - dan4884 
