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Post by Enn on Feb 2, 2008 11:43:37 GMT -5
xD;; I think even if I was Christian, I could never think Heaven and Hell worked in a way where Hitler was walking through the pearly gates and Gandhi was burning for eternity.
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Post by laurensk90 on Feb 2, 2008 17:40:16 GMT -5
You know, I think everything would make a lot more sense if God wasn't all that righteous. If God is indeed like humans, he might not care that much about all what's happening 'down here', much like we don't care one bit if an ant colony is exterminating a rival colony in our front yard. Reminds me of the movie 'Bruce Almighty', where Jim Carrey said: "I'm an ant and God is a mean kid with a magnifying glass."
It's an interesting idea to put yourself in God's shoes. Having an entire universe at your mercy, what would you do?
"Hey, why don't I give everyone a good scare and send a planetoid that just misses earth?" is what he might have thought 4 days ago.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2008 14:48:35 GMT -5
So many different things to respond to, so I think I won't be using quotes. Make the post very long.  Free Thinking - This is always the topic which gets the most heat, isn't it? All I (think I) need to say is you shouldn't think something a certain way just because someone says something, be it teachers, government, pastors or highly held books. Am I saying we need to reject everything taught to us? Yeah, I guess I am. How else are you going to learn something new when you only know what's been taught to you? dissecting your thoughts, taking offense to new ideas...if there's no debate, there's no growth. Religion as a Force of Good - People who are religious are capable of great good, and may even to charities more often, helping those in need. Of course, charity and good will towards so society isn't exclusive to religions, because even nonreligious people are capable of helping society. In fact, that's what we should all be doing: improving upon ourselves and the world around us. I can say religion is capable of bad things, but it's no different than everything else: it's the human taking an idea in the wrong direction. Religion can exclude people for their reasons, the same way others can. however, I still think it's better for someone to do so for their own reasons, and not what a religious text says. Be good to the world not because that's what an almighty wants of you, but because you know that's what you should do. I just wanted to respond to those two things in particular. On the first comment: I think it would be better stated to say that you should be cynical of everything anyone ever tells you. Not that you should outright turn it down, but that you should try to look at it more objectively and be like, "Okay, why is this person telling me this? what are they trying to sell me?" And everyone is always trying to sell you something. Heck, this entire thread is people trying to sell other people their own ideas. On the second comment: I work on a newspaper in real life. Yesterday, I was putting together the paper and someone submitted a piece about a forum on global warming. In the article, he had quotes from some people about how fixing global warming and helping the environment is something Christians need to take a stand for and be the good little Christians that they are. I think it's so weird how people believe that if you aren't (insert faith here), then you're a horrid, horrid person. Oh, my, you're even worse if you don't believe in any god at all! I found it so weird, that this girl basically said that if you weren't a christian, then you weren't good enough of a person to help the environment. Which, for me, is one of the many, many reasons why I could never believe in any religion presented to me. Personally, I think everyone in the world, from Gandhi to Hitler, is doing what they think is best. Just because what you're doing doesn't make sense to me, doesn't make it wrong. I really despise the idea of a universal right and wrong. Because anything that you point to as an something that "everyone" agrees is right or wrong, you can find plenty of examples to the contrary. I say "Bah" to the entire idea. |
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Post by laurensk90 on Feb 4, 2008 17:14:38 GMT -5
So many different things to respond to, so I think I won't be using quotes. Make the post very long. Free Thinking - This is always the topic which gets the most heat, isn't it? All I (think I) need to say is you shouldn't think something a certain way just because someone says something, be it teachers, government, pastors or highly held books. Am I saying we need to reject everything taught to us? Yeah, I guess I am. How else are you going to learn something new when you only know what's been taught to you? dissecting your thoughts, taking offense to new ideas...if there's no debate, there's no growth. Religion as a Force of Good - People who are religious are capable of great good, and may even to charities more often, helping those in need. Of course, charity and good will towards so society isn't exclusive to religions, because even nonreligious people are capable of helping society. In fact, that's what we should all be doing: improving upon ourselves and the world around us. I can say religion is capable of bad things, but it's no different than everything else: it's the human taking an idea in the wrong direction. Religion can exclude people for their reasons, the same way others can. however, I still think it's better for someone to do so for their own reasons, and not what a religious text says. Be good to the world not because that's what an almighty wants of you, but because you know that's what you should do. I just wanted to respond to those two things in particular. On the first comment: I think it would be better stated to say that you should be cynical of everything anyone ever tells you. Not that you should outright turn it down, but that you should try to look at it more objectively and be like, "Okay, why is this person telling me this? what are they trying to sell me?" And everyone is always trying to sell you something. Heck, this entire thread is people trying to sell other people their own ideas. On the second comment: I work on a newspaper in real life. Yesterday, I was putting together the paper and someone submitted a piece about a forum on global warming. In the article, he had quotes from some people about how fixing global warming and helping the environment is something Christians need to take a stand for and be the good little Christians that they are. I think it's so weird how people believe that if you aren't (insert faith here), then you're a horrid, horrid person. Oh, my, you're even worse if you don't believe in any god at all! I found it so weird, that this girl basically said that if you weren't a christian, then you weren't good enough of a person to help the environment. Which, for me, is one of the many, many reasons why I could never believe in any religion presented to me. Personally, I think everyone in the world, from Gandhi to Hitler, is doing what they think is best. Just because what you're doing doesn't make sense to me, doesn't make it wrong. I really despise the idea of a universal right and wrong. Because anything that you point to as an something that "everyone" agrees is right or wrong, you can find plenty of examples to the contrary. I say "Bah" to the entire idea. Just two small points. One: No one is trying to sell their ideas to others, there's no forcing one's beliefs to someone else. This is a debate thread, and it's supposed to be people expressing their own beliefs and discussing them with others. Two, however off topic, but something I think should be seen: The Great Global Warming Swindle |
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Post by Squirrel on Feb 4, 2008 18:20:23 GMT -5
I think if you're even going to bring up global warming, start a new thread. This is about religion, not the environment. (I'm only saying this because I'm very tempted to argue with you) |
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Post by laurensk90 on Feb 5, 2008 1:40:58 GMT -5
I think if you're even going to bring up global warming, start a new thread. This is about religion, not the environment. (I'm only saying this because I'm very tempted to argue with you) I'm not aiming to start an argument, just trying to inform.  Feel free to PM me if you want to. |
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Post by Jacob on Feb 5, 2008 13:52:33 GMT -5
On Hope vs. Prayer - Hoping is different from prayer. Hoping is thinking out the best possible outcome of a situation you have no control over. Prayer is an action, which uses energy to speak to someone you think is there. How much energy are we talking about? Considering you can pray without even speaking out loud, I think technically it uses less energy than using your vocal chords to talk to a person. I consume enough calories in a day, I think I can divert one or two of them to thinking at someone. Considering you are using energy to have a conversation in your head rather than a real conversation with someone, you are wasting energy, and time for that matter. Conversing with the world around you utilizing that energy for you to grow and the world with you. You can be by yourself and think, and that's ho most people work, but to have a conversation with someone? I just don't get it...  And I'm reminded about another way Christianity rubs me wrong: the fact Jesus is a scapegoat. I always found the idea of a scapegoat repulsive, because you allowed another living thing to take your sin. How is that a good thing? It doesn't right any wrongs to let someone else take your blame, and the individual didn't grow at all. Just the same person who committed the sin. It could be said we should love Jesus for just choosing to accept our sin, but I would rather he wouldn't. We don't grow and become better by accepting a meal ticket for belief in someone. I think we are capable of being better people than that. Guess what's happening tomorrow? Lent is starting up. Wh00t!...I guess.  Is anyone partaking of the occasion? and how do you feel about nonbelievers taking on Lent? |
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Post by (_+*Lou*+_) on Feb 5, 2008 15:24:07 GMT -5
The "scapegoat" thing. I don't think that you quite get it.
People didn't say, "hey, if this guy dies, we get a go-to-heaven-free pass", and then run up to crucify Him. Actually, the only reason He came to earth, in my understanding, was to save us. Your argument is sort of saying that when someone saves your life, which is basically what Jesus did by dying, then you shouldn't accept that and should just try to handle yourself, and that's not a good idea.
Jesus voluntarily suffered our punishments so that we would be free. I'm not completely sure about the idea that just believing in Him gets you to heaven- you can't just run around doing bad things, you need to try to live His way and do good deeds.
But Jesus wasn't just a scapegoat so that we didn't have to face our sins, Jacob. No one forced him to save us. He just did, and I will never truly be grateful enough.
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Post by laurensk90 on Feb 5, 2008 15:41:18 GMT -5
How much energy are we talking about? Considering you can pray without even speaking out loud, I think technically it uses less energy than using your vocal chords to talk to a person. I consume enough calories in a day, I think I can divert one or two of them to thinking at someone. Considering you are using energy to have a conversation in your head rather than a real conversation with someone, you are wasting energy, and time for that matter. Conversing with the world around you utilizing that energy for you to grow and the world with you. You can be by yourself and think, and that's ho most people work, but to have a conversation with someone? I just don't get it... And I'm reminded about another way Christianity rubs me wrong: the fact Jesus is a scapegoat. I always found the idea of a scapegoat repulsive, because you allowed another living thing to take your sin. How is that a good thing? It doesn't right any wrongs to let someone else take your blame, and the individual didn't grow at all. Just the same person who committed the sin. It could be said we should love Jesus for just choosing to accept our sin, but I would rather he wouldn't. We don't grow and become better by accepting a meal ticket for belief in someone. I think we are capable of being better people than that. Guess what's happening tomorrow? Lent is starting up. Wh00t!...I guess. Is anyone partaking of the occasion? and how do you feel about nonbelievers taking on Lent? Jacob, I think you greatly overestimate the 'energy' someone puts into something as prayer. I'm not religious, but I felt I needed to reply. You say it's energy and time consuming to pray, and since God doesn't exist, it's wasting time and energy. Well, have you never hoped for something, wished for good things? A wish or hope is essentially the same as a prayer, the only difference with someone who believes in God is that they direct their wish to something, someone. And feeling that there's someone who listens to you can be a great comfort. |
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Post by Nimras on Feb 5, 2008 15:42:58 GMT -5
I'm not completely sure about the idea that just believing in Him gets you to heaven- you can't just run around doing bad things, you need to try to live His way and do good deeds. I agree, just believing him Jesus (and/or God) can't be enough. After all, even the devil knows they exist. *grin* I'm fairly sure the general consensus is that he's lacking a ticket past the pearly gates. My personal opinion (which is just that my opinion, not anyone else's) is that to get into heaven you need to do a couple things: Follow the 10 commandments if you have the ability to learn them Love your neighbor as yourself Attempt to understand God to the best of your ability given your circumstances and viable options. Hitler, obviously, didn't do any of these things, so he's not going. Ghandi knew only of Christianity though the British, who he met as an occupying force in his native country. To him, a philosophical debate wasn't really a viable option, however, he did do his best to understand God (or the idea of a diety) t the best of his ability within his viable options and he loved his neighbors, so him in heaven wouldn't surprise me at all. As for non-believers taking part in Lent, it doesn't bother me at all. Just like it doesn't bother me when they go on Easter Egg hunts on Easter. Though unlike Easter's loot, I am a little confused on why they would observe Lent, if they didn't believe in the purpose in the first place. That said, Jacob, this thread is for the expressing of our views and ideas; not simply here to bash people you don't agree with. Please try to keep an open mind, alright? An attempt to try to actually understand where the people you are talking to is coming from would be very appreciated. Remember that the people you are talking to here are real people, with real emotions and religions. We're not talking about some made up religion in a roleplay or LARP here; so please keep the weasel words out. |
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Post by zhunter on Feb 5, 2008 19:17:23 GMT -5
I'm not completely sure about the idea that just believing in Him gets you to heaven- you can't just run around doing bad things, you need to try to live His way and do good deeds. I agree, just believing him Jesus (and/or God) can't be enough. After all, even the devil knows they exist. *grin* I'm fairly sure the general consensus is that he's lacking a ticket past the pearly gates. My personal opinion (which is just that my opinion, not anyone else's) is that to get into heaven you need to do a couple things: Follow the 10 commandments if you have the ability to learn them Love your neighbor as yourself Attempt to understand God to the best of your ability given your circumstances and viable options. Hitler, obviously, didn't do any of these things, so he's not going. Ghandi knew only of Christianity though the British, who he met as an occupying force in his native country. To him, a philosophical debate wasn't really a viable option, however, he did do his best to understand God (or the idea of a diety) t the best of his ability within his viable options and he loved his neighbors, so him in heaven wouldn't surprise me at all. As for non-believers taking part in Lent, it doesn't bother me at all. Just like it doesn't bother me when they go on Easter Egg hunts on Easter. Though unlike Easter's loot, I am a little confused on why they would observe Lent, if they didn't believe in the purpose in the first place. That said, Jacob, this thread is for the expressing of our views and ideas; not simply here to bash people you don't agree with. Please try to keep an open mind, alright? An attempt to try to actually understand where the people you are talking to is coming from would be very appreciated. Remember that the people you are talking to here are real people, with real emotions and religions. We're not talking about some made up religion in a roleplay or LARP here; so please keep the weasel words out. I have to say I was intrigued by your entire post because it was both very well written and a very good specualtion for humans such as we are. But the reason I am leaving a post here is because I was confused and amused by one thing about Easter that you may or may not take into consideration. Jesus Christ's raising from the grave, the Ascension, and sunshine and happiness and all that...At what point did we people decide baby chicks and bunnies were for Easter??? Chocolate rabbit ears have become the signature of Easter Day. I thought it was, to put it bluntly, up for thought if ever there was a time in Apologetics or perhaps even Theology. But you don't have to continue... Okay, I'm done. |
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Post by Stal on Feb 5, 2008 19:42:43 GMT -5
Well, if you really want to know, Shino, I suggest you study into the celebration of Easter itself.
If memory serves me, it's one of the holidays that the Roman Catholic Church adapted into Christian usage to help win over some of its pagan converts (and make it easier for them). The bunny and egg symbols are part of the old celebration, which was really a vernal equinox fertility celebration to the goddess of some ancient religion (I wanna say Babylonian in origin)
My memory might be failing me on a few key points, but in general the point is: it was adapted for usage in Christianity. That's where all those things come from.
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Post by Lex Luthor on Feb 5, 2008 23:25:05 GMT -5
Well, if you really want to know, Shino, I suggest you study into the celebration of Easter itself. If memory serves me, it's one of the holidays that the Roman Catholic Church adapted into Christian usage to help win over some of its pagan converts (and make it easier for them). The bunny and egg symbols are part of the old celebration, which was really a vernal equinox fertility celebration to the goddess of some ancient religion (I wanna say Babylonian in origin) My memory might be failing me on a few key points, but in general the point is: it was adapted for usage in Christianity. That's where all those things come from. Then there is Christmas... |
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Post by Stal on Feb 5, 2008 23:28:54 GMT -5
Well, if you really want to know, Shino, I suggest you study into the celebration of Easter itself. If memory serves me, it's one of the holidays that the Roman Catholic Church adapted into Christian usage to help win over some of its pagan converts (and make it easier for them). The bunny and egg symbols are part of the old celebration, which was really a vernal equinox fertility celebration to the goddess of some ancient religion (I wanna say Babylonian in origin) My memory might be failing me on a few key points, but in general the point is: it was adapted for usage in Christianity. That's where all those things come from. Then there is Christmas... Quite true. I probably should've mentioned that, as well, but as the question was about Easter... The origins of the celebrations and stuff is a lot of why I don't keep most of the holidays that are celebrated. |
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Post by Sock on Feb 6, 2008 18:37:49 GMT -5
I agree, just believing him Jesus (and/or God) can't be enough. After all, even the devil knows they exist. *grin* I'm fairly sure the general consensus is that he's lacking a ticket past the pearly gates. My personal opinion (which is just that my opinion, not anyone else's) is that to get into heaven you need to do a couple things: Follow the 10 commandments if you have the ability to learn them Love your neighbor as yourself Attempt to understand God to the best of your ability given your circumstances and viable options. Hitler, obviously, didn't do any of these things, so he's not going. Ghandi knew only of Christianity though the British, who he met as an occupying force in his native country. To him, a philosophical debate wasn't really a viable option, however, he did do his best to understand God (or the idea of a diety) t the best of his ability within his viable options and he loved his neighbors, so him in heaven wouldn't surprise me at all. As for non-believers taking part in Lent, it doesn't bother me at all. Just like it doesn't bother me when they go on Easter Egg hunts on Easter. Though unlike Easter's loot, I am a little confused on why they would observe Lent, if they didn't believe in the purpose in the first place. That said, Jacob, this thread is for the expressing of our views and ideas; not simply here to bash people you don't agree with. Please try to keep an open mind, alright? An attempt to try to actually understand where the people you are talking to is coming from would be very appreciated. Remember that the people you are talking to here are real people, with real emotions and religions. We're not talking about some made up religion in a roleplay or LARP here; so please keep the weasel words out. I have to say I was intrigued by your entire post because it was both very well written and a very good specualtion for humans such as we are. But the reason I am leaving a post here is because I was confused and amused by one thing about Easter that you may or may not take into consideration. Jesus Christ's raising from the grave, the Ascension, and sunshine and happiness and all that...At what point did we people decide baby chicks and bunnies were for Easter??? Chocolate rabbit ears have become the signature of Easter Day. I thought it was, to put it bluntly, up for thought if ever there was a time in Apologetics or perhaps even Theology. But you don't have to continue... Okay, I'm done. A lot of the modern-day holidays (even if pegged Christian) have Pagan roots like Stal said. It also might be commercialism shaping some of it, such as the Easter bunny, but I could be wrong. |
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Feel free to PM me if you want to.
Is anyone partaking of the occasion? and how do you feel about nonbelievers taking on Lent?
