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Post by Squirrel on Jan 31, 2008 18:35:45 GMT -5
Just a quick note Laurens, Hindus aren't polytheistic. It's complicated, but they are monotheists. I don't remember the explanation exactly, but all the deities Hindus are known for are actually extensions of one Supreme Being...not being a Hindu, I really can't explain it well.
But on another note, I've considered with your argument before, and it's sort of why I believe what I do. Mahatma Gandhi summarized how I've come to view all the different religions better than I ever could, so I'm going to quote him.
"Religions are different roads converging upon the same point.
What does it matter that we take different roads
so long as we reach the same goal?" – Mahatma Gandhi
(And, FYI, I didn't memorize this, I've written it down ages ago because it really describes the way I view different religions)
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Post by Squirrel on Jan 31, 2008 19:05:57 GMT -5
Oh, and I hate to double post, but it just hit me that what I said might be misinterpreted seeing as Laurens referenced "how do we know that the terrorists aren't right" or something like that.
No, I don't believe that what they're doing is right or towards the path to God. That's because they're not really following Islam, which states in its major rules that a man should never hurt women or children. One of my best friends is Muslim, and she doesn't agree with these people at all and hates the image that they give to Muslims.
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Post by Lex Luthor on Jan 31, 2008 20:35:57 GMT -5
From a neutral point of view, it's impossible to tell which religion is the 'right' one. Defining a 'good person' was hard enough on it's own, now it's to define the 'right' religion. For all we know, God might be only supporting muslims, showering every suicude bomber with virgins in heaven. Or it's the Hindus who have the right idea, and it's polytheïsm that's the one. How passionate you may be about your religion, there is always someone just as passionate about theirs, different from yours. Ehhh.... care to elaborate on that post? |
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Post by Stephanie (swordlilly) on Feb 1, 2008 0:09:53 GMT -5
We're all born with sin, and we all sin all the time. Just because we think we're "good" doesn't make us so. He's created Heaven, a place of complete and utter perfection. None of us is perfect, so none of us can do anything to be "good enough" simply by being a nice guy every once in a while. Yet He gave us the easiest "Get out of Hell Free" ticket in the world, simply trusting that Jesus was perfect enough to pay our fare into Heaven. I don't think God is perfect, at least not in the way the Bible writers portrayed Him. Killing all those young, innocent Egyptian boys to force the Pharoah to give in to Moses' request? Massacring the entire human population except for Noah's family? I don't call that kind and merciful. To me, God just sounds like a very magnified version of ourselves. We make gods, not the other way around. Yes, there may be some supernatural force/being responsible for creating the world, but I seriously doubt that that force is God, Allah, or any of those other gods our puny imaginations dream up. The universe is far more complex than anything a "holy" scripture can claim to say. Believing in one particular explanation can help simplify things a lot, but I am incapable of committing to one religion when there are so many alternative explanations, all with flaws and virtues. So I personally choose to remain agnostic. To just accept that some things are unknowable. If there is/are (a) God(s) after life, I can at least say that I didn't dismiss the possibility of him/her/it. Hindus aren't polytheistic. It's complicated, but they are monotheists. I don't remember the explanation exactly, but all the deities Hindus are known for are actually extensions of one Supreme Being...not being a Hindu, I really can't explain it well. I know a bit about Hinduism, actually, having studied it in Civilizations class. The ultimate life force (you notice there is no personification) is called the Brahma, and this force gives rise to and permeates all living beings in the universe. The gods are on a smaller scale - there are indeed a lot of them, both male and female, but most of them are incarnations. The Lord Vishnu has many incarnations, and in each rebirth, his wife takes on a new goddess form to accompany him. So yes, there are overlaps between gods. Hindus believe that lives go in cycles (samsara), and that each individual has to live through hundreds of lives before he can be released back into the ultimate life force, like a drop returning to the ocean. In each life, be it as an insect, an animal, an untouchable, or a Brahmin, the individual has a duty to live well and do good deeds. With accumulated good deeds (karma), he/she will be able to ascend to a higher form of existence in the next life. If not, he/she goes down. The god/judge/accountant in charge of keeping track of everybody's karma is called Yama. Yama does not make mistakes. A pretty fatalistic system of belief, in my opinion. Not much room for human rights movements. But there you go. |
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Post by laurensk90 on Feb 1, 2008 1:40:25 GMT -5
From a neutral point of view, it's impossible to tell which religion is the 'right' one. Defining a 'good person' was hard enough on it's own, now it's to define the 'right' religion. For all we know, God might be only supporting muslims, showering every suicude bomber with virgins in heaven. Or it's the Hindus who have the right idea, and it's polytheïsm that's the one. How passionate you may be about your religion, there is always someone just as passionate about theirs, different from yours. Ehhh.... care to elaborate on that post? Maybe that example was too extreme. What I meant to say was, that if God really sends non-believers to hell, it's impossible to know who is the right believer and who isn't. The bible said that you can't worship any god beside the Lord, but there are surely other religious texts that say the same about their god. Everyone thinks to know who God is. But nobody really knows. |
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Post by Lex Luthor on Feb 1, 2008 2:13:58 GMT -5
Maybe that example was too extreme. What I meant to say was, that if God really sends non-believers to hell, it's impossible to know who is the right believer and who isn't. The bible said that you can't worship any god beside the Lord, but there are surely other religious texts that say the same about their god. So you're sticking with the idea that Muslims want to blow everyone up? |
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Post by Komori on Feb 1, 2008 2:32:35 GMT -5
Oh boy, here come the bible citations. Oh, here comes the cringing at the mention of the Bible. You mentioned you were Catholic (in some sense of the word), I was simply quoting something I thought you believed in. Heh, I've heard all these arguments before. What if no one's right? What if everyone's right? How does the world work, what does life mean, what comes in the life after? Ghandi says all religions are right, but what if he's wrong? You say anyone is "good" if they have "good intentions," but I say "what if no one's good enough?" I say "the way to life is a narrow path" but you say "what if it's an all-converging road?" For everything anyone can say with certainty about religion, someone else can come up with a "but what if?" question. But then, that's why it's religion and not science, right? I go by what is written in the Bible, because I believe it is the Word of God, and not simply some collection of dusty old scrolls compiled by some ancient scholars and translated and retranslated into a patchwork guide to living a decent life. I've done all that searching and that philosophizing and questioning, and I've settled with certainty on this spot. And no "what ifs" will shake me from my beliefs, but none of what I say can shake or unsettle someone else's strong "what ifs." If you have decided on what you think the world means, what can one college girl sitting at a computer say to change your whole life? All I can do is state what I believe in, and people can add that to their "what ifs" if they'd like. Yes, I live my life by my faith. Will I consider other people's proposed meanings of life? No, not any more. Have I before? Yes, certainly. I've come out of those rocky waters of "what does life mean?", of "who's right?" and I'm am certain of the solid ground I stand on. Does that mean I'm a stubborn blind sheep who can't think for herself? I suppose that's what it must look like. What will I say to change your opinion of me? All I can say is that I'm comforted here. I stand firmly on a solid rock, in the warm glow of a God who loves and cares for me, certain that the rocky and difficult path ahead of me has a glorious destination. I needn't jump into those tumultuous rapids of "what if" any longer. I'll be a sheep and follow the Lamb. Baa. |
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Post by laurensk90 on Feb 1, 2008 4:38:15 GMT -5
Maybe that example was too extreme. What I meant to say was, that if God really sends non-believers to hell, it's impossible to know who is the right believer and who isn't. The bible said that you can't worship any god beside the Lord, but there are surely other religious texts that say the same about their god. So you're sticking with the idea that Muslims want to blow everyone up? Oh, come on. I’m not going to stereotype Muslims, I was just trying to illustrate my point, but it was an extreme example, I admit. Oh boy, here come the bible citations. Oh, here comes the cringing at the mention of the Bible. You mentioned you were Catholic (in some sense of the word), I was simply quoting something I thought you believed in. Heh, I've heard all these arguments before. What if no one's right? What if everyone's right? How does the world work, what does life mean, what comes in the life after? Ghandi says all religions are right, but what if he's wrong? You say anyone is "good" if they have "good intentions," but I say "what if no one's good enough?" I say "the way to life is a narrow path" but you say "what if it's an all-converging road?" For everything anyone can say with certainty about religion, someone else can come up with a "but what if?" question. But then, that's why it's religion and not science, right? I go by what is written in the Bible, because I believe it is the Word of God, and not simply some collection of dusty old scrolls compiled by some ancient scholars and translated and retranslated into a patchwork guide to living a decent life. I've done all that searching and that philosophizing and questioning, and I've settled with certainty on this spot. And no "what ifs" will shake me from my beliefs, but none of what I say can shake or unsettle someone else's strong "what ifs." If you have decided on what you think the world means, what can one college girl sitting at a computer say to change your whole life? All I can do is state what I believe in, and people can add that to their "what ifs" if they'd like. Yes, I live my life by my faith. Will I consider other people's proposed meanings of life? No, not any more. Have I before? Yes, certainly. I've come out of those rocky waters of "what does life mean?", of "who's right?" and I'm am certain of the solid ground I stand on. Does that mean I'm a stubborn blind sheep who can't think for herself? I suppose that's what it must look like. What will I say to change your opinion of me? All I can say is that I'm comforted here. I stand firmly on a solid rock, in the warm glow of a God who loves and cares for me, certain that the rocky and difficult path ahead of me has a glorious destination. I needn't jump into those tumultuous rapids of "what if" any longer. I'll be a sheep and follow the Lamb. Baa.  Did I say I was Catholic? I might have said something in spirit of someone who’s Catholic or Christian, but I can place myself more in atheïst. But I commented on bible citations because you can prove just about everything if you take all the texts in the bible as true. But I know I can’t just throw you off all of your beliefs by just reasoning something up, and I can’t just be convinced into believing with some bible quotes. But neither of this is anyone’s intention, and I certainly know I’m discussing this here because I like it, I learn new things, and it sharpens the mind. …I think you meant ‘to be the sheep and follow the shepherd’, though. |
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Post by Komori on Feb 1, 2008 12:47:13 GMT -5
Did I say I was Catholic? Ah, my mistake, that was Squirrel who said she was Catholic. We're all born with sin, and we all sin all the time. Just because we think we're "good" doesn't make us so. He's created Heaven, a place of complete and utter perfection. None of us is perfect, so none of us can do anything to be "good enough" simply by being a nice guy every once in a while. Yet He gave us the easiest "Get out of Hell Free" ticket in the world, simply trusting that Jesus was perfect enough to pay our fare into Heaven. I don't think God is perfect, at least not in the way the Bible writers portrayed Him. Killing all those young, innocent Egyptian boys to force the Pharoah to give in to Moses' request? Massacring the entire human population except for Noah's family? I don't call that kind and merciful. To me, God just sounds like a very magnified version of ourselves. Ah, but He's the one who's given us this life of ours. He knows the number of our days. Sure, many young boys died because God wanted all to know His power, but He's the one who had it planned all along. Why does anyone die when they do? Because it's His will, he does these things for a reason. We as humans can't profess to know exactly why He does things. He's the Creator of the sun, of the trees and the mountains and the universe, how in the world can we fathom what He knows? If He could be so easily quantified by a human living the short lifespan of a mortal, then He wouldn't be the all-powerful God. Just because you think it's unfair doesn't mean He's the imperfect one. We're the ones who are imperfect, who think we can apply our imperfect and sinful standards to a perfect God. I'll be a sheep and follow the Lamb. ...I think you meant ‘to be the sheep and follow the shepherd’, though. No, I meant what I said. The Lord is my shepherd, and Jesus Christ is my Lamb, the blameless and sinless Lamb of God who took my place on the sacrificial fire so that I may be forgiven of my sins. |
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Post by Squirrelgirl on Feb 1, 2008 15:24:41 GMT -5
Oh boy, here come the bible citations. Oh, here comes the cringing at the mention of the Bible. You mentioned you were Catholic (in some sense of the word), I was simply quoting something I thought you believed in. Heh, I've heard all these arguments before. What if no one's right? What if everyone's right? How does the world work, what does life mean, what comes in the life after? Ghandi says all religions are right, but what if he's wrong? You say anyone is "good" if they have "good intentions," but I say "what if no one's good enough?" I say "the way to life is a narrow path" but you say "what if it's an all-converging road?" For everything anyone can say with certainty about religion, someone else can come up with a "but what if?" question. But then, that's why it's religion and not science, right? I go by what is written in the Bible, because I believe it is the Word of God, and not simply some collection of dusty old scrolls compiled by some ancient scholars and translated and retranslated into a patchwork guide to living a decent life. I've done all that searching and that philosophizing and questioning, and I've settled with certainty on this spot. And no "what ifs" will shake me from my beliefs, but none of what I say can shake or unsettle someone else's strong "what ifs." If you have decided on what you think the world means, what can one college girl sitting at a computer say to change your whole life? All I can do is state what I believe in, and people can add that to their "what ifs" if they'd like. Yes, I live my life by my faith. Will I consider other people's proposed meanings of life? No, not any more. Have I before? Yes, certainly. I've come out of those rocky waters of "what does life mean?", of "who's right?" and I'm am certain of the solid ground I stand on. Does that mean I'm a stubborn blind sheep who can't think for herself? I suppose that's what it must look like. What will I say to change your opinion of me? All I can say is that I'm comforted here. I stand firmly on a solid rock, in the warm glow of a God who loves and cares for me, certain that the rocky and difficult path ahead of me has a glorious destination. I needn't jump into those tumultuous rapids of "what if" any longer. I'll be a sheep and follow the Lamb. Baa. Actually, I kind of agree with all of this. There are always "what ifs," things are always uncertain, and we're never going to believe the same things, but that's life and it's cool. Also, "Catholic (in some sense of the word)" is pretty accurate. I've used the terms "not the greatest Catholic," "crappy Catholic," and "salad bar Catholic" as descriptions before. I'll be sure to add that one to my arsenal when someone asks me what religion I am next time.  |
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Post by Sock on Feb 1, 2008 16:15:51 GMT -5
What you just said offends me, Komori. Just because your idea of the Christian God is someone that cares for you doesn't mean everyone sees that way. It shouldn't be a hard concept to grasp, that people could think God's imperfect or hateful or anything else from the way the Bible depicts him. It isn't the most loving image to everyone, while it may be to you.
I like the concept of a God, but the idea that he punishes people for being themselves or going their own way unsettles me. It's true what you said, that none of us truly know what a good person is, but why do any of us deserve to be punished? Why can't a truly loving God look us all in the face and see us as what we are - imperfect beings, prone to being wrong. I mean, honestly, if my child didn't believe I was their mother, I wouldn't cast it into the fire. Most people would consider that torture and unnecessary with humans, why is it alright for God to do that? It's just never something I've gotten, no matter how many times it's explained to me. God is supposed to be perfect, isn't he? If he's perfect, why can't he forgive everyone, not just those that pray to him? Now, don't get me wrong, I have nothing against Christians. Some of the best people I've ever met are devout to God. I'm just wondering why someone would follow something like that so faithfully (I'm not saying all Christians follow that depiction of God, it's just that you seem to).
And also, the Bible clearly shows what a good person is. It tells about the sins (as in the Ten Commandments and the seven main sins). And I don't think any of us could argue that someone who donates to charity whenever they can, helps people in need, is loving to their peers and helps the world is a good person. And, I know that we've all done something bad in our lives and no one is pure and perfect, but must following God be the only way to be forgiven by him? Shouldn't he just be able to forgive if he truly loves you as his child?
You can argue that God lets us make the choice, but would a mother or father kill their child if they messed up? I'd certainly hope not. Someone who did so would be sick and twisted. You can also argue that God's form of punishment is what's required for not believing in him, but think about it. It's an eternity being burned and having all sorts of terrible things happen to you, all for making a mistake (assuming that the Christian God is the true depiction of God). Should it really be like that?
I think that, in addition to being raised in an atheistic home, is why I was never able to follow a God faithfully.
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Post by Jacob on Feb 1, 2008 17:24:20 GMT -5
So many different things to respond to, so I think I won't be using quotes. Make the post very long.  Free Thinking - This is always the topic which gets the most heat, isn't it? All I (think I) need to say is you shouldn't think something a certain way just because someone says something, be it teachers, government, pastors or highly held books. Am I saying we need to reject everything taught to us? Yeah, I guess I am. How else are you going to learn something new when you only know what's been taught to you? dissecting your thoughts, taking offense to new ideas...if there's no debate, there's no growth. On Hope vs. Prayer - Hoping is different from prayer. Hoping is thinking out the best possible outcome of a situation you have no control over. Prayer is an action, which uses energy to speak to someone you think is there. I would rather see that energy be used for something constructive, like actually speaking to someone who will respond, rather than find hidden meaning in actions through a god who speaks in mysterious ways. Waste is destructive to me, and I think it's a waste to pray/talk to someone who may not even be there. No matter how hard someone prays, or how many, it won't change any outcome of this world. Better to use the energy on something you can control and change, and leave the rest to hope. Religion as a Force of Good - People who are religious are capable of great good, and may even to charities more often, helping those in need. Of course, charity and good will towards so society isn't exclusive to religions, because even nonreligious people are capable of helping society. In fact, that's what we should all be doing: improving upon ourselves and the world around us. I can say religion is capable of bad things, but it's no different than everything else: it's the human taking an idea in the wrong direction. Religion can exclude people for their reasons, the same way others can. however, I still think it's better for someone to do so for their own reasons, and not what a religious text says. Be good to the world not because that's what an almighty wants of you, but because you know that's what you should do. Existence of Gods - That there is or is not gods around seems like a pointless argument to me. I believe there are no gods because I don't see any answering any calls, creating miracles or the like. It's not a matter of faith, because I would rather believe in something that I know is there, like humanity. If something is there listening to our prayers, and really does acts of kindness when needed, it's certainly hit and miss, and not noticeable enough to be shown as miraculous. Pascal's Wager - I tried being religious once, and believing in something just so I wouldn't be viewed with scorn and face eternity being tortured. It became pointless though, because I knew I couldn't believe something I knew was wrong, and have to believe honest to goodness people are wrong, especially if they don't believe a certain branch of religion. I would rather live a good life by my own hand than shut myself down in the off chance there is a hell. If there is one, and I'm sent to it for being good to the world, I don't think I would regret it, especially if I made it better for those left behind. Now to answer direct quotes... Just because I follow God and the Bible does not mean I need any case of help. Just like you have the choice to be an atheist, I have the choice to be a Christian. I'm not bashing your views, please don't bash mine. Not an athiest, though if you wish to label me as such, you're free to do so. I just won't recognize the title. Alright, there are a few things that need saying here. Firstly, Jacob, can we please drop the notion that religious people don't think for themselves, please? Here, I'll even give you a logical explanation why your assumption is false. (insert long equation which would be too long in this post to show)I liked your logic table, but I really think it's a matter of religious people "kidding themselves" into reinventing what "god" meant to say. there are so many branches of religion this day, each striving to show they are the right, while at the same time adapting to be less strct with their code. It doesn't seem people stuck to their guns over the centuries, and turned it into something which fits society better. Still restricting, but changed due to people all the same. |
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Post by Sock on Feb 1, 2008 17:39:16 GMT -5
So many different things to respond to, so I think I won't be using quotes. Make the post very long. Free Thinking - This is always the topic which gets the most heat, isn't it? All I (think I) need to say is you shouldn't think something a certain way just because someone says something, be it teachers, government, pastors or highly held books. Am I saying we need to reject everything taught to us? Yeah, I guess I am. How else are you going to learn something new when you only know what's been taught to you? dissecting your thoughts, taking offense to new ideas...if there's no debate, there's no growth. This notion is almost ridiculous. While I do agree that people should think for themselves, you shouldn't reject what someone says just because it isn't your own thoughts. That's just as bad as closing yourself off from other thoughts, in my opinion, in the fact that you completely ignore them. Everyone should be open to new ideas, but that doesn't mean they have to believe them. Also, there is ALWAYS someone who thinks the same as you. Be it millions of people or just one, they're out there. And let's face it, people influence us. Whether it be friends, family, teachers... anyone can influence anyone else, even without them realizing it. Think about the people in your life, and almost everyone has probably had some effect on you. The only way we could ever think freely is if there were no other people in the world. Just because someone feels something someone else believes is right doesn't mean they aren't thinking for themselves. That's the point I was trying to make, in a way. If God does indeed exist, he should reward people for doing good for humanity, regardless of their religion. Actually, I think doing something good just because your religion tells you to is an act of fear, and not something that's to be respected as much as doing something out of the goodness of your heart. And there's no doubt that religious people can do as many horrible things as anyone else can - you've all heard the stories - so I find it hard to believe God would cast a good person into Hell for not believing in him, but let someone who does terrible things into his kingdom (whether or not he does is neither here nor there). |
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Post by Komori on Feb 1, 2008 22:39:09 GMT -5
What you just said offends me, Komori. Just because your idea of the Christian God is someone that cares for you doesn't mean everyone sees that way. It shouldn't be a hard concept to grasp, that people could think God's imperfect or hateful or anything else from the way the Bible depicts him. It isn't the most loving image to everyone, while it may be to you. So which part specifically offends you? Did I say anything negative against people who believe differently than I do? I like the concept of a God, but the idea that he punishes people for being themselves or going their own way unsettles me. It's true what you said, that none of us truly know what a good person is, but why do any of us deserve to be punished? Why can't a truly loving God look us all in the face and see us as what we are - imperfect beings, prone to being wrong. I mean, honestly, if my child didn't believe I was their mother, I wouldn't cast it into the fire. Most people would consider that torture and unnecessary with humans, why is it alright for God to do that? It's just never something I've gotten, no matter how many times it's explained to me. God is supposed to be perfect, isn't he? If he's perfect, why can't he forgive everyone, not just those that pray to him? Now, don't get me wrong, I have nothing against Christians. Some of the best people I've ever met are devout to God. I'm just wondering why someone would follow something like that so faithfully (I'm not saying all Christians follow that depiction of God, it's just that you seem to). Actually, you hit on some pretty strong points. Doesn't God realize we're imperfect beings, and all of us should be forgiven because we're all His children? Exactly! He gave up his Son so we could all be forgiven! We don't have to do anything else but accept it! If we don't, it's like turning our backs to the life preserver, but that doesn't mean it hasn't been thrown. Accepting and believing that He gave up His Son to Earth, to be tortured, crucified, and killed is all we have to do. After that, we don't have to pray, we don't have to follow the Bible, we don't have to do anything else. How much more merciful does God need to be? We can be horrible monstrous people, but as long as we believe Jesus came to save us then we'll be saved. Now, the only reasons Christians pray, follow the Bible, and try to be as God commanded is simply out of gratitude. He gave up His Son's life, the least we can do is give up ours. If someone saved you from falling off a cliff, would you simply turn your back to them without so much as a thanks? On Hope vs. Prayer - Hoping is different from prayer. Hoping is thinking out the best possible outcome of a situation you have no control over. Prayer is an action, which uses energy to speak to someone you think is there. How much energy are we talking about? Considering you can pray without even speaking out loud, I think technically it uses less energy than using your vocal chords to talk to a person. I consume enough calories in a day, I think I can divert one or two of them to thinking at someone. |
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Post by Sock on Feb 1, 2008 23:43:09 GMT -5
What you just said offends me, Komori. Just because your idea of the Christian God is someone that cares for you doesn't mean everyone sees that way. It shouldn't be a hard concept to grasp, that people could think God's imperfect or hateful or anything else from the way the Bible depicts him. It isn't the most loving image to everyone, while it may be to you. So which part specifically offends you? Did I say anything negative against people who believe differently than I do? Actually, you hit on some pretty strong points. Doesn't God realize we're imperfect beings, and all of us should be forgiven because we're all His children? Exactly! He gave up his Son so we could all be forgiven! We don't have to do anything else but accept it! If we don't, it's like turning our backs to the life preserver, but that doesn't mean it hasn't been thrown. Sorry, I misinterpreted your post, now that I read over it. Anyways... I don't really see it as turning your back on a life preserver. I mean... why do we need to go to Hell in the first place? Surely God could've foreseen that Eve would pick and eat the apple, thus casting us all into Hell unless we believe in Christ. And couldn't God, as a perfect being, just... blip Hell out of existence so all of his children could enjoy the wonder of his kingdom? I mean, he gives us the choice, but don't all parents want what's best for their child in the long run? If you had to choose between eternal happiness for your child or eternal torture, which would you choose? I think any stable-minded person would choose the former. Now, see, that's what I don't get. I understand the notion behind it, but I don't understand how horrible monstrous people can get into Heaven, when good people can get burned for eternity for believing something different. And no, if someone saved me from falling off the cliff I wouldn't turn my back without a thanks; but if I was the person who saved someone falling off a cliff from their certain doom, I wouldn't push them right off again if they didn't thank me. |
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Did I say I was Catholic? I might have said something in spirit of someone who’s Catholic or Christian, but I can place myself more in atheïst. But I commented on bible citations because you can prove just about everything if you take all the texts in the bible as true.
