Religious Apologetics / What Do You Believe?

[Komori]

nimras23 said:

ilovetoread247 said:

I'm not completely sure about the idea that just believing in Him gets you to heaven- you can't just run around doing bad things, you need to try to live His way and do good deeds.

I agree, just believing him Jesus (and/or God) can't be enough.

After all, even the devil knows they exist. *grin* I'm fairly sure the general consensus is that he's lacking a ticket past the pearly gates.

Romans 10:9-10:
9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and (C)believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Yeah, the devil does indeed know that Jesus was the Son of God. In Luke 4:33, a demon identifies Jesus as the Holy One. But firstly, angels (and demons are fallen angels) aren't humans, so knowing He was the Son of God isn't going to save them. Besides, they don't confess Him as their Lord, because they follow Lucifer.

Then, while technically you can be a bad person and still get into Heaven, Romans 10 says that righteousness will come to the heart of the person. But believe me, born-again Christians can still make plenty and plenty of mistakes.

[Stal]

If you read the entire context, Romans 10:1-13, it seems to be that Paul isn't just saying "all you have to do is believe."

And usually, belief in the heart will result in one's actions being Godly. Not just giving lip-service, but full acceptance.

In fact, to go further on and read James...

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[d] works, and I will show you my faith by my[e] works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[g]And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

James 2:14-26

Now James isn't saying that works alone justify you. What he's talking about is that works are a natural accompaniment of faith. Which makes sense--if you have faith and believe something, then you act upon it and display your godliness. One's faith becomes evident through their works and it's a living faith, not the dead stagnant kind of faith that doesn't result in anything else.

What's also nice about that passage is that it also contains the scriptural reference that Nim had been making (you were referencing that, right?)

Taking all these things into consideration, and not disregarding anything...it still takes more than just a belief in the Most High to make it to His Kingdom (I won't say get into Heaven, as again, that goes against my beliefs, but I very much being in God's coming Kingdom, New Jerusalem, all that stuff, and yeah, there are requirements for making it into that)

[Komori]

stalos said:

If you read the entire context, Romans 10:1-13, it seems to be that Paul isn't just saying "all you have to do is believe."

And usually, belief in the heart will result in one's actions being Godly. Not just giving lip-service, but full acceptance.

In fact, to go further on and read James...

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[d] works, and I will show you my faith by my[e] works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[g]And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

James 2:14-26

Now James isn't saying that works alone justify you. What he's talking about is that works are a natural accompaniment of faith. Which makes sense--if you have faith and believe something, then you act upon it and display your godliness. One's faith becomes evident through their works and it's a living faith, not the dead stagnant kind of faith that doesn't result in anything else.

What's also nice about that passage is that it also contains the scriptural reference that Nim had been making (you were referencing that, right?)

Taking all these things into consideration, and not disregarding anything...it still takes more than just a belief in the Most High to make it to His Kingdom (I won't say get into Heaven, as again, that goes against my beliefs, but I very much being in God's coming Kingdom, New Jerusalem, all that stuff, and yeah, there are requirements for making it into that)

Yeah, I know what you're saying. If you never try to act in a godly manner, then it's likely that you aren't truly believing after all, for if you truly believe in your salvation, you'll do all that you can to glorify the One who's saved you. But I'm just kinda' talking in really basic, simple terms, that no number of good acts are going to get you any closer to the Kingdom of God without the belief in Jesus.

Good works are the result of your salvation, not the cause of it.

jacob said:

ghostkomori said:

How much energy are we talking about? Considering you can pray without even speaking out loud, I think technically it uses less energy than using your vocal chords to talk to a person. I consume enough calories in a day, I think I can divert one or two of them to thinking at someone.

Considering you are using energy to have a conversation in your head rather than a real conversation with someone, you are wasting energy, and time for that matter. Conversing with the world around you utilizing that energy for you to grow and the world with you. You can be by yourself and think, and that's ho most people work, but to have a conversation with someone? I just don't get it...

Just because I pray doesn't mean I don't talk to other people. Besides, I usually pray when no one's around anyway, so how can I divert that energy to talking to people? How can I talk to someone right before I got to sleep at night? How can I talk to another person in the shower? How can I talk to someone sitting in an empty park? Praying is no different than thinking. You think to yourself, don't you? It's no more energy to think to someone else, is it?

And why exactly the fixation on the energy it takes to pray? I mean, it takes more energy to read the Bible, it takes more energy to go to church every Sunday, what's wrong with a little bit of energy-efficient prayer?

jacob said:

Free Thinking - This is always the topic which gets the most heat, isn't it? All I (think I) need to say is you shouldn't think something a certain way just because someone says something, be it teachers, government, pastors or highly held books. Am I saying we need to reject everything taught to us? Yeah, I guess I am. How else are you going to learn something new when you only know what's been taught to you? dissecting your thoughts, taking offense to new ideas...if there's no debate, there's no growth.

So, you're saying you have to reject and rethink everything anyone tells you, ever? Your mom says it's raining outside, do you have to go and check? The Monopoly instructions tell you how to play the game, do you have to think and decide whether those instructions are telling you the best way to play? Your textbooks say 2+2=4, that plants are living things, that water is made with two parts Hydrogen and one part Oxygen, do you have to go out and test those things yourself? And you're concerned with the energy it takes to pray? I mean yeah, you've got to be skeptical about the things you hear in the news, and no one person is ever perfect or right, but talk about reinventing the wheel.

[Stal]

I see what you mean, Komori. Sorry about that, it just looked like you were arguing that faith alone was enough. And you're very correct about works as well--works or faith alone won't save anyone; they're two sides of the same coin and go together.

Jacob, if you want to talk about energy, then let's look at this in a wider margin.

People who pray, in my experience, are usually less high-strung or bound to stress and worry about things. Sure it still happens during certain crunch times, but in general, they tend to be people at lot more at ease with situations, not bound with anxiety or worry. They're usually happier. They also tend to do good things like volunteer or help people out. They put spare energy and time to good use. One of the big reasons for that is the path they've chosen to walk.

So if one of the "costs" is a little bit of energy here and there (which I sincerely dispute anyway--it really takes no energy to pray. A lot less than the amount it's taking you to claim it is...wouldn't that energy be best used doing something else?), then isn't that little bit worth it given the other benefits that come along with it? Just saying...

Also, Jacob, your philosophy bugs me in a way that I'm not sure I can really articulate...but I'm going to try. I don't think you've done this on purpose, but it's what you've done.

It's kept you closed-minded, in the illusion of open-mindedness. What your "disregard everything someone tells you" thought pattern has done is allow you to maintain a view of the world in your head that can't be shaken. Ever. You could say the world is flat, and in your mind, you'd ALWAYS be right because you're not allowing to learn from the experience of others. Which is also the case with religious people here.

You've painted them in such a way in your head. They've countered with plenty of evidence contrary, but you get to completely disregard and ignore it and maintain the view of the world you want to have. You really ought to think about that and how it's really hampering what you can take from things.

A healthy skepticism is good, yes, but too much can actually be detrimental...

[Jacob]

nimras23 said:

That said, Jacob, this thread is for the expressing of our views and ideas; not simply here to bash people you don't agree with. Please try to keep an open mind, alright? An attempt to try to actually understand where the people you are talking to is coming from would be very appreciated. Remember that the people you are talking to here are real people, with real emotions and religions. We're not talking about some made up religion in a roleplay or LARP here; so please keep the weasel words out.

Not trying to bash or hurt anyone. Just hoping I can come to an understanding of what I can't understand. My mind is as open as can be, but if something doesn't sound right... *shrugs*

Never role played much before...and what's a LARP?

laurensk90 said:

Jacob, I think you greatly overestimate the 'energy' someone puts into something as prayer. I'm not religious, but I felt I needed to reply.

You say it's energy and time consuming to pray, and since God doesn't exist, it's wasting time and energy. Well, have you never hoped for something, wished for good things? A wish or hope is essentially the same as a prayer, the only difference with someone who believes in God is that they direct their wish to something, someone. And feeling that there's someone who listens to you can be a great comfort.

As I said already, wising/hoping is different from prayer in my eyes. Thinking versus real action. I think people would feel a lot better if they really knew someone was listening (more explanation...hopefully...down below).

ghostkomori said:

Just because I pray doesn't mean I don't talk to other people. Besides, I usually pray when no one's around anyway, so how can I divert that energy to talking to people? How can I talk to someone right before I got to sleep at night? How can I talk to another person in the shower? How can I talk to someone sitting in an empty park? Praying is no different than thinking. You think to yourself, don't you? It's no more energy to think to someone else, is it?

And why exactly the fixation on the energy it takes to pray? I mean, it takes more energy to read the Bible, it takes more energy to go to church every Sunday, what's wrong with a little bit of energy-efficient prayer?

jacob said:

Free Thinking - This is always the topic which gets the most heat, isn't it? All I (think I) need to say is you shouldn't think something a certain way just because someone says something, be it teachers, government, pastors or highly held books. Am I saying we need to reject everything taught to us? Yeah, I guess I am. How else are you going to learn something new when you only know what's been taught to you? dissecting your thoughts, taking offense to new ideas...if there's no debate, there's no growth.

So, you're saying you have to reject and rethink everything anyone tells you, ever? Your mom says it's raining outside, do you have to go and check? The Monopoly instructions tell you how to play the game, do you have to think and decide whether those instructions are telling you the best way to play? Your textbooks say 2+2=4, that plants are living things, that water is made with two parts Hydrogen and one part Oxygen, do you have to go out and test those things yourself? And you're concerned with the energy it takes to pray? I mean yeah, you've got to be skeptical about the things you hear in the news, and no one person is ever perfect or right, but talk about reinventing the wheel.

I think everyone else is fixated on the word "energy". Not me. ;D I'm saying I don't see the point. That the gods are there or not, or even listening, doesn't make any difference. besides the idea that who you are speaking to may not be there, it won't really change things here in the real. You can pray, "Hey god, I really wish my friend would get better," and it says, "That's nice," and that's pretty much it. As far as I can see at least. It's at their whim after that, no matter how devote you are or how you are hurting. Sure, you can have peace of mind by having "spoken with someone", but I would rather see someone really speak with someone. There's more growth in it from that, because you are really connecting with another. That is where I would rather prayer go towards.

Way on being a smart aleck to my "Free Thinking" response. No, I don't think you should be paranoid to the point in wondering if 2 + 2 = 4. Can you imagine the insanity of trying to figure out why you have 10 fingers? I'm talking about healthy criticism, and being able to relearn concepts you know in new ways. The exploration and renewal of ideas, and most importantly, knowing for yourself. That's the journey of living.

stalos said:

Also, Jacob, your philosophy bugs me in a way that I'm not sure I can really articulate...but I'm going to try. I don't think you've done this on purpose, but it's what you've done.

It's kept you closed-minded, in the illusion of open-mindedness. What your "disregard everything someone tells you" thought pattern has done is allow you to maintain a view of the world in your head that can't be shaken. Ever. You could say the world is flat, and in your mind, you'd ALWAYS be right because you're not allowing to learn from the experience of others. Which is also the case with religious people here.

You've painted them in such a way in your head. They've countered with plenty of evidence contrary, but you get to completely disregard and ignore it and maintain the view of the world you want to have. You really ought to think about that and how it's really hampering what you can take from things.

A healthy skepticism is good, yes, but too much can actually be detrimental...

I can be shaken. My mind changes. It's always going to change. That's the wonder of learning and expanding myself. If I find something that's worthwhile, I examine it and try to understand it. If I see something that doesn't make sense, I examine it anyway and see if I can understand it. Isn't that being "open minded"? I thought that's what I've been doing.

[penguinofdoom]

ghostkomori said:

Your textbooks say 2+2=4, that plants are living things, that water is made with two parts Hydrogen and one part Oxygen, do you have to go out and test those things yourself?

Your textbooks also say about evolution but I suspect as a fundamentalist Christian you disregard that one so

[Stal]

penguinofdoom said:

ghostkomori said:

Your textbooks say 2+2=4, that plants are living things, that water is made with two parts Hydrogen and one part Oxygen, do you have to go out and test those things yourself?

Your textbooks also say about evolution but I suspect as a fundamentalist Christian you disregard that one so

Hey, Penguin, we already said no Christian bashing and to avoid the attitude.

Please review the various thread warnings and rules of the forum. They aren't just suggestions or guidelines.

[penguinofdoom]

OK I'll leave Komori to parody herself

[Gav]

I think, if I have it right, that Jacob, it's just that your opinions are worded a bit such that... they may seem extremely offensive or insulting. Perharps their meanings might be differently intended, but they do seem to come off as having a stereotypical image or bias. Just try to see how others might view those statements and decide if it's pushing on any limits.

[Jacob]

gav said:

I think, if I have it right, that Jacob, it's just that your opinions are worded a bit such that... they may seem extremely offensive or insulting. Perharps their meanings might be differently intended, but they do seem to come off as having a stereotypical image or bias. Just try to see how others might view those statements and decide if it's pushing on any limits.

*nods* I will take it into consideration. Every conversation is a new chance to learn how to better speak with others, yes?

[Crystal]

Gav kind of has it. ^^ It's really not that we're trying to target you, Jacob, seriously. xD It's just that a lot of your posts have been coming off with a kinda self-righteous tone that kind of contradicts what you asserted about your own open-mindedness, and it just gets people's backs up a lot. I know a lot of people have been smacking you down in this thread.

[Komori]

jacob said:

You can pray, "Hey god, I really wish my friend would get better," and it says, "That's nice," and that's pretty much it. As far as I can see at least. It's at their whim after that, no matter how devote you are or how you are hurting. Sure, you can have peace of mind by having "spoken with someone", but I would rather see someone really speak with someone.

Well, I can tell one of my buddies, "Hey buddy, I really wish my friends would get better," and I can be sure he'll say "That's nice." (Unless I'm buddies with a doctor.) Now, if I tell God about my sick friend and ask Him to help the friend, even if He acts on a whim, maybe He helps, maybe He doesn't. But if He DOES decide to help, He's God. He can cure the sick. There have been plenty of "medical miracles," people who shouldn't have survived by all accounts of medical science. So just asking Him to consider it sounds like it would be worth that tiny extra effort.

jacob said:

Way on being a smart aleck to my "Free Thinking" response. No, I don't think you should be paranoid to the point in wondering if 2 + 2 = 4. Can you imagine the insanity of trying to figure out why you have 10 fingers? I'm talking about healthy criticism, and being able to relearn concepts you know in new ways. The exploration and renewal of ideas, and most importantly, knowing for yourself. That's the journey of living.

Nah, you said to question everything anyone tells you, not just have a healthy skepticism. Of course everyone should be a little critical of the things around them, including their decision on religion. If people didn't, then there'd be a lot more people joining those crazy cults that say if you commit suicide you get to go to Pluto with the aliens. I have a healthy level of criticism on the world around me, I have simply decided that on the point of religion I've made a solid foundation. That way my skepticism can be geared in a general direction.

penguinofdoom said:

ghostkomori said:

Your textbooks say 2+2=4, that plants are living things, that water is made with two parts Hydrogen and one part Oxygen, do you have to go out and test those things yourself?

Your textbooks also say about evolution but I suspect as a fundamentalist Christian you disregard that one so

Uh-huh, my textbooks do talk about the THEORY of evolution. You can prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that H₂0 is 2H+0, but evolution hasn't become that completely rock-solid. Besides, I do believe that animals can evolve and adapt. You know, like those pepper moths or whatever that famous example is. I figure if God creates a changing planet, no reason He can't create changing animals. I simply believe that humans did not come from apes or ape-like creatures, and that we were created as humans like the Bible says. But there's no reason that Creation has to completely disregard evolution.



See there? My healthy skepticism in action!

[penguinofdoom]

Why did you spell H2O with a zero?

Also, a scientific theory is not JUST A THEORY. My science text book describes it as being the best way to explain the evidence. There is the fact of evolution, i.e. animals change over time to form new species, which we can tell from the fossil record, and then the theory of evolution, which explains that this is caused by natural selection.

Also, your healthy skepticism is great and all, but maybe apply that to your Creationist views too.

[Stal]

penguinofdoom said:

Why did you spell H2O with a zero?

Also, a scientific theory is not JUST A THEORY. My science text book describes it as being the best way to explain the evidence. There is the fact of evolution, i.e. animals change over time to form new species, which we can tell from the fossil record, and then the theory of evolution, which explains that this is caused by natural selection.

Also, your healthy skepticism is great and all, but maybe apply that to your Creationist views too.

Not all scientific theories are "best ways." They attempt to be best ways, but often as our knowledge base grows, we find certain theories no longer hold true and can be proven false.

As for the fossil record, you can't prove from the fossil record that animals change and gain new genetic material. You can theorize, but unless you have actual observable, repeatable, etc evidence, you can't prove it. So what's been done is interpretation. And other people are interpreting that data other ways.

But this isn't a evolution/creation debate thread. If you really want to get into that huge debate I suggest another thread.

And Penguin, as I've already told you, watch the attitude. There's no need for that kind of last remark of yours.

[penguinofdoom]

Yes but creationists are interpreting the data to fit their preconceived ideas and ignoring anything contradictory (with a healthy dose of quote mining thrown in usually), whereas scientists are interpreting the data based on what it is, and change the theory based on that. Religion makes no claim to be malleable in this respect.