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Post by Oily on Nov 17, 2004 14:13:11 GMT -5
Ummm but wasn't Satan one of God's angels and technically doesn't that mean too that God created Satan? Sounds like a faux pas to me. So if one's perfect and the other is imperfect but the perfect one made the imperfect one doesnt that make the perfect one really imperfect as well? Cripes, now I know why I don't worry about white-mans' religion. eeks! I think my brain's going to explode trying to figure that out. Heh, there was a funny logical puzzle that went: "God is all powerful. So thus he should be able to make his hand to heavy to lift." But if it's too heavy to lift, then he's not all powerful...and yeah ^^ You cannot debate morality, which underpins this argument, but you can chip away at some of the side arguments ^^ |
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Post by Komori on Nov 17, 2004 14:44:27 GMT -5
That's where I believe you are wrong. The mistake IS suddenly okay. People made mistakes, but they ARE excused for their mistake making. In fact, they can make all the mistakes in their life, and still get in to Heaven. That is the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross. He died there so we would get into Heaven. All of our sins are forgiven, past, present, and future ones. In essence, He was saying, "I understand you are human. You make mistakes, and you sin. Because of that, you'd never get into Heaven, you are too sinful. But I don't want you to go to Hell, so I will be your sacrifice. I will die instead. I wil take all your sins with me on the cross, and they will die with me. They will not weigh you down when you ascend to Heaven. And all I ask in exchange is that you just accept it. Don't try to go this road alone, trust me to take care of you. I love you that much." Of course, accepting Jesus's sacrifice means that you will try not to sin, in order to emulate the life of Christ, but He's not expecting you to be perfect.  You know, writing this all out makes me very happy now. *hugs everyone* Spread the LOVE! |
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Post by Buddy on Nov 17, 2004 14:51:21 GMT -5
*comes out with air hole driller* Time to set record straight... As Stal pointed out, there is that phrase "Love the sinner, hate the sin". Now, did God make me a liar? Does he make anyone that way? No. Big, fat, no. So why do we sin? Well, there's this funny little guy called the Devil, or Satan, your choice. Same funny little guy. Same funny, evil, twisting, conniving little guy who is the reason there IS sin. I'm not going to go into the whole story, but I assume a substantial amount of people here know the story of Adam and Eve. We are made in God's image - perfect. Satan twists us. God never made anyone a liar, or a thief, or a murderer, of any of that. Satan is the one. God gave us free will (hence the tree of good and evil and all that jazz in Genesis) and it is because of said will we can choose to follow God or Satan. And there is a better choice  In closing, God. Did. Not. MAKE/CREATE. Anyone. A sinner. God is perfect. Satan is anti-perfect. Case closed. But IDL, what about those who don't believe in Satan, the Devil, or Hell? If you believe there is no Satan, then you believe that God created everything just as it should be, therefor accepting that God homosexuals, therefor that homosexuality is okay, therefor that gay marriage is perfectly fine. To say "God is perfect and created all things as they should be - except for those bad things that we don't like over there! But those are because of Satan, so those don't count!" is really a sort-of cop-out, isn't it? |
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Post by KittyKadaveral on Nov 17, 2004 15:09:38 GMT -5
Yeesh, and here I was thinking that Christians were taught to 'love thy brother' or something like that. But yet, they turn their backs on gays, non-Christians, Wiccans, and whatever else. Guess that statement is wrong too? I suppose it all boils down to the point of you do your own thing I do mine and the world will all be a much better place for it. Just let people live in peace and just be thankful that they are and have love in their hearts. Isn't that good enough?
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Post by Ducky being lazy on Nov 17, 2004 15:15:27 GMT -5
Yeesh, and here I was thinking that Christians were taught to 'love thy brother' or something like that. But yet, they turn their backs on gays, non-Christians, Wiccans, and whatever else. Guess that statement is wrong too? I suppose it all boils down to the point of you do your own thing I do mine and the world will all be a much better place for it. Just let people live in peace and just be thankful that they are and have love in their hearts. Isn't that good enough? I take offense to that. I'm a Christian. One of the ones who became Christian by my own choice, chooses to go to church every week, etc. But I have gay friends. I have Wiccan, Atheist, and Agnostic friends. And I am pro gay marriage. But I love God. There. I just disproved your statement. |
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Post by KittyKadaveral on Nov 17, 2004 15:29:16 GMT -5
I take offense to that. I'm a Christian. One of the ones who became Christian by my own choice, chooses to go to church every week, etc. But I have gay friends. I have Wiccan, Atheist, and Agnostic friends. And I am pro gay marriage. But I love God. There. I just disproved your statement. Then to you I shall apologize for you are probably one of the minority and I only wish more could be more open and caring on those things. People are good or evil on their own choice. Scape goats are created to make things seem better. I've always said I have no problem with a persons beliefs so they should not have a problem with me. Unfortunately not too many people see things that way, they'd rather make someone else's life miserable just to make their life seem better. Again, to you and the other open minded religious folks I do apologize to. Everyone does have a right to how they think or feel, but I still think it's kind of sad where people actually will condemn a person for something that isn't harming anyone. Love is supposed to be a beautiful thing isn't it? |
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Post by irishdragonlord on Nov 17, 2004 16:33:32 GMT -5
Ech... Should I make my speel about free will? Mm-hmm. Let me brief y'all on Lucifer. See, God is nice, so we're not robots, which is the reason we all don't believe in Him. Angels - like Lucifer/Satan - have free will. Lucifer was the greatest of the angels, as the Bible goes, but he decided he was sooo great he would usurp God's power. Usurping someone who can't lose is a bad idea. Lucifer was cast out of heaven, became Satan, and began to reek havoc. And a cop-out? Only if you put it in the terms you did. The fact there is a Satan in undeniable proof of free will, the single greatest gift - I feel - God gave us. That is why we choose evil; free will. Satan is the one who keeps us on the path. And yes, GhostKomori - if you repent, you're set. There's a verse in Romans talking about God's grace and how our sins obtain us grace, but by sinning for the sake of obtaining grace is pointless, for if we know what to do, why would we sin? No more grace. And Kitty, I will be here all night explaining to you I take heavy offense at the word back-turning. Heavy. Which part of "Love the sinner, hate the sin" did you not understand? Is that back-turning? No! I am a rotten little maggot if you count up every little sin I ever committed, yet God loves me, I am sorry for my sins, badda bing badda boom problem solved. And scape-goat - are you saying that if someone tries to apologize to me I should hold a grudge so I don't "make things seem better"? Honestly, this is making little sense. And what precisely does making someone's life miserable to make yours better mean? Really, this is an honest question - I don't understand what you mean. |
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Post by irishdragonlord on Nov 17, 2004 16:35:06 GMT -5
I suppose it all boils down to the point of you do your own thing I do mine and the world will all be a much better place for it. Just let people live in peace and just be thankful that they are and have love in their hearts. Isn't that good enough? It would be good enough - fill me in when such a place exists. If everyone did their own thing, there would be no repercussions, no judgment, no nothing but utter and total anarchy. Complete chaos. That theory doesn't work with a certain race I call humans. |
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Post by irishdragonlord on Nov 17, 2004 16:36:14 GMT -5
But IDL, what about those who don't believe in Satan, the Devil, or Hell? If you believe there is no Satan, then you believe that God created everything just as it should be, therefor accepting that God homosexuals, therefor that homosexuality is okay, therefor that gay marriage is perfectly fine. To say "God is perfect and created all things as they should be - except for those bad things that we don't like over there! But those are because of Satan, so those don't count!" is really a sort-of cop-out, isn't it? Well, if you only believe in evolution and no God the whole scheme is a-ok as well And the bad things are, as I said, the whole free will bit. |
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Post by Buddy on Nov 17, 2004 17:15:11 GMT -5
Well, if you only believe in evolution and no God the whole scheme is a-ok as well And the bad things are, as I said, the whole free will bit. Yes, but you stradled around my question. Yes - "if". We're not talking about "if" - we're talking about "is". You said in your other post "the fact that there is a Satan" - as if it is some type of provable fact with evidence that you can prove. But you can't prove it, can you? It is based on belief. You believe in Satan, Hell, and all that stuff - I don't. You can't pass what you believe off as proof just because you see it as such. See, IDL, this is just the very issue at hand - at every turn, you take something which is your belief and present it as some indisputable fact that somehow proves you're right. And you've simply got to move past that - just because you believe something to be a fact, does not mean it others take it as such. To some, the idea of Lucifer is just a fairy tale, created to explain things that cannot be explained otherwise. Yet, you present it as a proven fact that you can back up with proof. |
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Post by irishdragonlord on Nov 17, 2004 17:38:11 GMT -5
Yes, but you stradled around my question. Yes - "if". We're not talking about "if" - we're talking about "is". You said in your other post "the fact that there is a Satan" - as if it is some type of provable fact with evidence that you can prove. But you can't prove it, can you? It is based on belief. You believe in Satan, Hell, and all that stuff - I don't. You can't pass what you believe off as proof just because you see it as such. See, IDL, this is just the very issue at hand - at every turn, you take something which is your belief and present it as some indisputable fact that somehow proves you're right. And you've simply got to move past that - just because you believe something to be a fact, does not mean it others take it as such. To some, the idea of Lucifer is just a fairy tale, created to explain things that cannot be explained otherwise. Yet, you present it as a proven fact that you can back up with proof. What exactly are your ideals, Buddy? If they are evolution, prove them to me. You can't. I cannot prove God to you; no one can "prove" anything. I am saying, in my Christian ideals, my beliefs. That is all, sorry if you misunderstood. But to have someone tell me my ideals and the Christian faith without knowing it - I am saying what the Bible says. The "fact" is the fact about Christianity and what the actual ideals are. |
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Post by Buddy on Nov 17, 2004 17:51:58 GMT -5
What exactly are your ideals, Buddy? If they are evolution, prove them to me. You can't. I cannot prove God to you; no one can "prove" anything. I am saying, in my Christian ideals, my beliefs. That is all, sorry if you misunderstood. But to have someone tell me my ideals and the Christian faith without knowing it - I am saying what the Bible says. The "fact" is the fact about Christianity and what the actual ideals are. My ideals? I'm agonistic - I neither believe nor disbelieve in a God. I think the possibility certainly exists, but no one ever has, nor ever will, prove it one way or another. I'm not convinced there is one - but I'm not convinced there isn't, either. I took a straw from TEOW's basket - I believe in the concept of evolution, but whether or not we evolved from monkeys is still up in the air. Again, no one will ever know for sure. I don't believe in a Hell - I don't think there's anything anyone could ever do that would deserve an eternity of Damnation. Of course, if I don't believe in Hell, then I obviously doubt the existance in any Devil. Which would explain why I don't believe in your "fact". IDL, you may believe in what you wish. But don't try and present them as some type of "fact" which is proven, indisputable, and accepted by anyone and everyone with a brain. Along with that, keep in mind that what you believe to be a "fact" may not be what everyone else accepts, either. And if the people you are debating with do not accept it as fact (which is the case), and you cannot prove that it indeed is (which you cannot), then it is no more a fact than my saying the sky is red. Belief and fact. They are two wholly seperate entities. |
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Post by irishdragonlord on Nov 17, 2004 18:42:03 GMT -5
My ideals? I'm agonistic - I neither believe nor disbelieve in a God. I think the possibility certainly exists, but no one ever has, nor ever will, prove it one way or another. I'm not convinced there is one - but I'm not convinced there isn't, either. I took a straw from TEOW's basket - I believe in the concept of evolution, but whether or not we evolved from monkeys is still up in the air. Again, no one will ever know for sure. I don't believe in a Hell - I don't think there's anything anyone could ever do that would deserve an eternity of darnation. Of course, if I don't believe in Hell, then I obviously doubt the existance in any Devil. Which would explain why I don't believe in your "fact". IDL, you may believe in what you wish. But don't try and present them as some type of "fact" which is proven, indisputable, and accepted by anyone and everyone with a brain. Along with that, keep in mind that what you believe to be a "fact" may not be what everyone else accepts, either. And if the people you are debating with do not accept it as fact (which is the case), and you cannot prove that it indeed is (which you cannot), then it is no more a fact than my saying the sky is red. Belief and fact. They are two wholly seperate entities. Except, saying the sky is red has no basis whatsoever And what I tried to explain was the only "facts" I intended to say were the facts of the Christian faith and what the Bible says, no more. |
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Post by wolfofthewoods on Nov 17, 2004 23:58:17 GMT -5
Except, saying the sky is red has no basis whatsoever And what I tried to explain was the only "facts" I intended to say were the facts of the Christian faith and what the Bible says, no more. IDL, your telling everyone about how Satan is the one that leads us down the path of free will is something that I, for one, do not appreciate. I don't believe in Satan. I'm not sure whether or not I believe in God -- I, like Buddy, am agnostic. But I'm not going to go and try to disprove to you that Satan exists. What do I believe when it comes to free will? I believe that it is our choice. FREE will. I believe that our ability to make choices is called such and not "Satan's will" because WE make bad mistakes. I don't believe there's anyone luring us into corners. We make mistakes. We have regrets, and we LEARN. But that's sin, no? Mistakes in decision-making? Ever hear of "nobody's perfect"? You can't just live your life blaming anything you've done wrong on the Devil. Then you'd just be a scape-goat, as far as I can see it. But are you saying that preference of who you love is caused by Satan? |
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Post by Crystal on Nov 18, 2004 3:11:32 GMT -5
IDL, your telling everyone about how Satan is the one that leads us down the path of free will is something that I, for one, do not appreciate. I don't believe in Satan. I'm not sure whether or not I believe in God -- I, like Buddy, am agnostic. But I'm not going to go and try to disprove to you that Satan exists. What do I believe when it comes to free will? I believe that it is our choice. FREE will. I believe that our ability to make choices is called such and not "Satan's will" because WE make bad mistakes. I don't believe there's anyone luring us into corners. We make mistakes. We have regrets, and we LEARN. But that's sin, no? Mistakes in decision-making? Ever hear of "nobody's perfect"? You can't just live your life blaming anything you've done wrong on the Devil. Then you'd just be a scape-goat, as far as I can see it. But are you saying that preference of who you love is caused by Satan? Alright, I decided early on that I wouldn't get involved in this discussion, because basically we've already had four--five, maybe six threads on gay marriage, and we're just rehashing old soup over and over again. No one ever really changes their side. About Satan and free will - when I was about six, or seven, I told my father I'd done something wrong in school that day, and I blamed it on Satan. My dad took me by the shoulders and told me to never, ever, blame Satan for anything I'd done. He said that Satan only shows you another path - the wrong one. It's your choice, and yours alone, not God's, not the devil's, to walk down which path. You take the wrong road, YOU make the mistake, YOU bear the consequences. Not the devil. Not God. I'm not going to debate theology because unless I convert any of you you're not going to believe it. And I'm not going to debate whether preference of who you love is caused by Satan or something, because I don't know. I'll save it up to ask God on our dinner date. Basically, can we please just let this thread die a nice, honorable death? Either let it die or sticky it to the top or something, because every month comes along another gay marriage thread and I'm just sick of it. Alright, I'm going to go sleep now and hope my lousy, hacking cough goes away. Don't bash my post too bad in my absence. |
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You know, writing this all out makes me very happy now. *hugs everyone* 
