Gay marriage: for or against ?

[KittyKadaveral]

IDL said:

It would be good enough - fill me in when such a place exists.

If everyone did their own thing, there would be no repercussions, no judgment, no nothing but utter and total anarchy. Complete chaos. That theory doesn't work with a certain race I call humans.

Where does this place exist? It's wherever you are if you want to make it so. I don't bother anyone. I don't 'do what i want' that is awful, I know right from wrong. Freedom doesn't mean chaos. I wake up, go to work, come home and do whatever it is I need to do. I have a great relationship with my parents so much so that we're more like best friends than anything else. Not too many of the big shots at work know I exist. Why? Because I don't cause trouble, I don't whine and moan and complain and simply put, I have a job to do, I do it and that's that. I dont gossip and I don't care to worry about what other people do. I have a ton of friends so don't even start with that one. They all have HIGH remarks about me saying I'm friendly and fun to be around. I'm sure a lot of that lingers on the fact that I don't judge people for whom they love or what they do as long as it's making them happy and they're not hurting anyone. Hakuna Matata my friends...hakuna matata. I see so many people getting angry and upset over meaningless things while they're on vacation down here and for what? Since I got rid of my cheating/mentally abusing boyfriend of five years I've realized so much and am much happier and relaxed now. Hardly anything bothers me or upsets me. Your SELF is where such a place exists. You make your world how you want it to be. If you want it full of gossip, worrying about what other people do so much you give yourself an ulcer and forcing people to think how you do then of course you're going to live in torment and not find your true happiness. That too is the meaning of life. Such a simple question, but so many people look for other answers instead of the obvious. I can sit back and say I'm 100% pleased with my life and wouldn't change a thing, can you?

I don't believe in any ONE religion. You can't honestly tell me that before the Bible was written all those people that existed before hand are burning in some kind of Hell. I think I would also pity a religion where good people that find love that is mutal with someone should be condemmed. I don't even recall a verse anywhere in that good book of stories and parables that states gays are bad must burn in hell and be restricted from love or that Satan thought it would be fun to create them. I could be horrible right now and ask what a grown man was doing always hanging around 12 other men constantly and wonder about the preferances there, but I won't go there, I'll leave that up to you.

And my thing about a scape-goat was simple enough and I'm sorry you didn't see it. I was saying people blame a god and a devil on things they do and that's pretty lame too. I kick the kid down the street because he stomped in my flowers and I say the devil made me do it and I win the trophy for employee of the month and I say it was an act of god. That's what I mean by scape-goat. It's no different than saying kids burn down houses because of Beavis and Butthead or whack people in the head with a hammer because of Tom and Jerry. I want to know too then why does the god let the devil do bad things to his people? That's kind of sadistic if you think about it. It's like having a child and letting the bully down the street always beat the snot out of it for no reason. You are responsible for your own actions since you have your own free will and thoughts. That is what I mean by a scape-goat. No one seems to take responsability for what they do by blaming or giving themself that credit.

[Crystal]

KittyKadaveral said:

I want to know too then why does the god let the devil do bad things to his people? That's kind of sadistic if you think about it. It's like having a child and letting the bully down the street always beat the snot out of it for no reason.

You know, I had a perfectly good, and extremely bad-tempered response to this. But seeing as I'll probably regret it later when a thread pops up in Mod Squad about it, I'll just save it in Word and hold my tongue.

The title of the document was 'snarl', by the way.

Sorry guys. I don't really mean to be this rude, but it's just that this kind of thing is a sure way to drive me up the wall. And it doesn't happen very often, so I'd like to keep it that way.

[Kiddo]

I may be off the mark here, but if people choose to use God or whatever as a scapegoat, why does it offend you? Didn't you say that you make your world as you want it to be and don't let anything bother you?

Anyways, I find the whole "OMG it's God's fault!" thing funny. I had a period where everything was God's fault - after all - why DID my dad get sick? Where was He? Huh? Course the whole time I hated him and resisted any attempt on His part to comfort me. So yep. It's totally God's fault. I mean, we tell Him to bugger off, it's our lives, we should live them as we wish without interference. So God says, "Okay! You have fun with that." And then we whine when bad stuff happens because God did it or isn't fixing it for us.

As for the gay marriage issue... as long as it's not condoned within the church I don't care.

[The Wanderer]

Let me start by saying, I have nothing on homosexuals, other than the fact they annoy me with their prancing around, yelling "I'm homosexual, la la la la!" To me, and a lot of others, this translates into: "I'm homosexual, and there's nothing you can do about it, since this is a free country."

True, no one can stop you, because this really is a free country. But the thing that bothers me is the fact that you got your rights. I mean, they can vote, get educated, be an American Citizen. I mean, isn't that enough? People can ostracize gays and lesbians because that is all part of freedom of speech. So even if getting called not-so-nice derogatory terms is hard on them, they can only turn the other cheek, because that is all they can do.

Now when we talk about marriage, we are talking about something that is religious, and should be considered sacred. Granted, I am offended by people that get married, and then decide their marriage "just isn't working out," at any given time, and break the bond through divorce. A homosexual wedding is no different. If they do it, in the name of religion, then they are doing something that a lot of religious people do not want, which is to see their religion get abused by something that is considered " a part of the present times."

Alright, so suppose homosexuals are granted the right to get married. What next? Will they be satisfied, or will they push for something else? Given the history of human behavior, then they will most likely act on the latter. ("If you give a mouse a cookie... he'll want a glass of milk," and so on, and so forth.)

Just so you know, I don't have any real valid points to speak out against gay marriage. This is because, there are no valid points that speak in favor. Think about why they want gay marriage, and think about why opponents want to block it, and then you'll see what I mean.

[Stal]

I'd respond in some fashion...if I wasn't so offended by some of the recent posts made on here. Kitty, I'm just going to ask that you please think about what you're going to say before you post it. There were so many things in that last post that have made me angry and I'm having to keep from lashing out on right now (just like Crystal). So please, just think about how something is going to be taken by what you said before you say it.....

And before I go, I will make one quick comment...kind of expand on what Kiddo briefly touched on...correct me if I'm wrong, but your philosophy is let people do they're thing. It's their life, their world, you have no say in it and stuff like that. Why does it seem to be to me that you're trying to convert everyone else to that same way of thinking...? It's almost as if there's a hidden clause of fine print that says you're only happy and use that philosophy when people are all ready doing what you want. When people are neither using that ideology, or even agreeing with your own ideas on other topics, you seem to get extremely riled up and do your best to convert to that way of thinking that you have.

And this is not an observation based on this thread alone, but with experience. Perhaps you ought to think about that and how those two clash with one another....

[Buddy]

IDL said:

Except, saying the sky is red has no basis whatsoever

And to that degree, nor does saying that there is a Satan have any basis to me.

And what I tried to explain was the only "facts" I intended to say were the facts of the Christian faith and what the Bible says, no more.

If that is the case, then you need to better phrase yourself. Saying, and I quote:

The fact there is a Satan in undeniable proof of free will...

Isn't presenting it as a belief - it is a blantant attempt to present something as fact when such is not unversally accepted as so. Some do not believe in Satan - so, to present his existance as a fact is wrong, as it is not nessecarily so.

You presented Satan as a fact - I said it was not so, as Satan's "existance" is merely based on what you believe.

Do you understand what I'm saying? How many more ways can I explain this? Honestly - I've said this so many times, I'm beginning to confuse myself!

And as for what Crystal said: We've had so many debates on gay marriage in the past, we're really just beating a dead horse here. How many more ways of looking at this issue can there be?

And, as I feel it needs to be said... People, keep this civil. Watch what you say and how you say it. And consider how others (especially those deeply commited to their beliefs) will react to your statements.

[Komori]

KittyKadaveral said:

I want to know too then why does the god let the devil do bad things to his people? That's kind of sadistic if you think about it. It's like having a child and letting the bully down the street always beat the snot out of it for no reason.

Like everyone else said, that's a really offensive thing to say, and it makes me sad. But, since you said you want to know the answer, I feel like I ought to explain it, because if no one does, you'll feel like your statement is right and justified because no one has the answer. I feel that I do.

Bad things happen to people. All people. As for why bad things happen to good people... If Christian's lives were oh-so-easy, then we wouldn't learn. Christians aren't perfect people, we need to have hardships. These hardships are what strengthen us in our faith in the Lord. If we are suffering, and we still have faith in Christ, then when the bad thing is over, we are all the stronger for it. So when bad things happen to us, God tells us to rejoice. Because He never gives us anything we can't handle, and He promises we will be stronger.

And if Christian's lives were so wonderful and easy, the non-Christians would convert because they want to have easy lives. But that's the wrong reason to become Christian. It's greedy and selfish. Christianity is about recieving and spreading the love of the Lord, not about getting lots of earthly goodies like perfect health and finances. It's about finding the right path among all the paths that seem right. It's about finding the true God among all the false gods.

But that doesn't mean that Christians shouldn't love others. Jesus Christ once sat and ate dinner with prostitutes and murderers and other bad people, because He loves everyone, not just the ones who claim to be oh-so righteous.

[irishdragonlord]

KittyKadaveral said:

Where does this place exist? It's wherever you are if you want to make it so. I don't bother anyone. I don't 'do what i want' that is awful, I know right from wrong. Freedom doesn't mean chaos. I wake up, go to work, come home and do whatever it is I need to do. I have a great relationship with my parents so much so that we're more like best friends than anything else. Not too many of the big shots at work know I exist. Why? Because I don't cause trouble, I don't whine and moan and complain and simply put, I have a job to do, I do it and that's that. I dont gossip and I don't care to worry about what other people do. I have a ton of friends so don't even start with that one. They all have HIGH remarks about me saying I'm friendly and fun to be around. I'm sure a lot of that lingers on the fact that I don't judge people for whom they love or what they do as long as it's making them happy and they're not hurting anyone. Hakuna Matata my friends...hakuna matata. I see so many people getting angry and upset over meaningless things while they're on vacation down here and for what? Since I got rid of my cheating/mentally abusing boyfriend of five years I've realized so much and am much happier and relaxed now. Hardly anything bothers me or upsets me. Your SELF is where such a place exists. You make your world how you want it to be. If you want it full of gossip, worrying about what other people do so much you give yourself an ulcer and forcing people to think how you do then of course you're going to live in torment and not find your true happiness. That too is the meaning of life. Such a simple question, but so many people look for other answers instead of the obvious. I can sit back and say I'm 100% pleased with my life and wouldn't change a thing, can you?

No, I can't. Life is not perfect, and it will not always be perfect for you. I have had perfect lapses, but it's not an end-all. Also, don't tell me you believe making "self" perfect will work. Like I said, no-one - NO ONE - has a perfect life, or will keep a perfect life, nor will everyone abide in peace and happiness - where do you think Hitler came from? And the people who followed Hitler? They did what they wanted, and the result was far from perfect.

I don't believe in any ONE religion. You can't honestly tell me that before the Bible was written all those people that existed before hand are burning in some kind of Hell. I think I would also pity a religion where good people that find love that is mutal with someone should be condemmed. I don't even recall a verse anywhere in that good book of stories and parables that states gays are bad must burn in hell and be restricted from love or that Satan thought it would be fun to create them. I could be horrible right now and ask what a grown man was doing always hanging around 12 other men constantly and wonder about the preferances there, but I won't go there, I'll leave that up to you.

You really don't enjoy listening to what I am saying, do you? Sorry for being mean, but don't debate when you won't listen.

First off- the first books of the Bible were written by Moses. Now, are you insinuating until the Bible came into existence, everyone was too dull to tell right from wrong? "In the begginning, the Word was, and the Word was God." Word = Bible, Bible = God. God was in the begginning and he wasn't twiddling His thumbs. So no, any person with ears could indeed know what to do.

Second - Romans, Leviticus, and unless I am mistaken, Philippians. Considering just how vast your Biblical knowledge is, I don't find it surprising you don't know where the Bible speaks against gays. Have you memorised the Bible? Have you even read the entire thing front-to-back?

And my thing about a scape-goat was simple enough and I'm sorry you didn't see it. I was saying people blame a god and a devil on things they do and that's pretty lame too. I kick the kid down the street because he stomped in my flowers and I say the devil made me do it and I win the trophy for employee of the month and I say it was an act of god. That's what I mean by scape-goat. It's no different than saying kids burn down houses because of Beavis and Butthead or whack people in the head with a hammer because of Tom and Jerry. I want to know too then why does the god let the devil do bad things to his people? That's kind of sadistic if you think about it. It's like having a child and letting the bully down the street always beat the snot out of it for no reason. You are responsible for your own actions since you have your own free will and thoughts. That is what I mean by a scape-goat. No one seems to take responsability for what they do by blaming or giving themself that credit.

OK-ey Kitty, remember that "all night" bit? Change it to all week.

First off- the first books of the Bible were written by Moses. Now, are you insinuating until the Bible came into existence, everyone was too dull to tell right from wrong? "In the begginning, the Word was, and the Word was God." Word = Bible, Bible = God. God was in the begginning and he wasn't twiddling His thumbs. So no, any person with ears could indeed know what to do.

And Crystal, thank you for putting in plain terms what I fumbled on - you are shown the path and you choose. And how many times need I tell you FREE WILL? YOU choose, YOU decide. No blaming. Ok?

Ok, God lets Satan be evil. You should praise your lucky stars, unless you would prefer to be a robot? Again - FREE. WILL. God lets Satan be Satan because of free will - to choose Him or not, to follow or reject him. You may think it's sadistic, but the true sadism would have been making us all mindless robots, serving Him and nothing else. Would you have liked that? No, you wouldn't have. Better to have a God that cares about you enough to not force you to do things than take away that gift; "Hell is locked from the inside," as they say. Every sin I have committed was my own fault and no other's; I rejected God and listened to Satan. Do you understand me now?

[The Angry Artist]

Wanderer said:

Let me start by saying, I have nothing on homosexuals, other than the fact they annoy me with their prancing around, yelling "I'm homosexual, la la la la!" To me, and a lot of others, this translates into: "I'm homosexual, and there's nothing you can do about it, since this is a free country."

True, no one can stop you, because this really is a free country. But the thing that bothers me is the fact that you got your rights. I mean, they can vote, get educated, be an American Citizen. I mean, isn't that enough? People can ostracize gays and lesbians because that is all part of freedom of speech. So even if getting called not-so-nice derogatory terms is hard on them, they can only turn the other cheek, because that is all they can do.

Now when we talk about marriage, we are talking about something that is religious, and should be considered sacred. Granted, I am offended by people that get married, and then decide their marriage "just isn't working out," at any given time, and break the bond through divorce. A homosexual wedding is no different. If they do it, in the name of religion, then they are doing something that a lot of religious people do not want, which is to see their religion get abused by something that is considered " a part of the present times."

Alright, so suppose homosexuals are granted the right to get married. What next? Will they be satisfied, or will they push for something else? Given the history of human behavior, then they will most likely act on the latter. ("If you give a mouse a cookie... he'll want a glass of milk," and so on, and so forth.)

Just so you know, I don't have any real valid points to speak out against gay marriage. This is because, there are no valid points that speak in favor. Think about why they want gay marriage, and think about why opponents want to block it, and then you'll see what I mean.

This post really irks me. Bascially you are spreading misinformation. You seem to be under the impression that all homosexuals are falmboyent and love to rub it in eveyrone's faces. I have no idea where you got that idea.

As far as voting, being educated, and being a citizen, it is discrimination to deny them the right as citizens to marry whom they choose that everyone else enjoys.

You seem to think marriage is all about doing it in the name of religion and preserving the scantity of it. Number one, don't people get married for love (or sometimes money or fame)? People don't say, "I don't like you, but since my religion tells me to marry I'm going to marry you." Marrige is just a declaration of love that is covered by religion. Further, what religion would homosexuals insult by marrying athiesticly?

As far as divorce, half the people who get married get divorced, in case you haven't notice the rest of the thread. Yeah, marriages sometimes don't work out. Sometimes a couple find out they don't love each other as much as they thought. So does that mean they should stary married while disliking each other? Of course not.

Your argument for homosexuals wanting more is not only unfounded but just wrong. That is a Slippery Slope argument, an argument that if one bad thing happens it will lead to a downhill slope of further undesireable events. Take a look at the civil rights and the women's suffrage movements in the United States. Women wanted to vote. Colored citizens wanted to be treated as equal. They got what they wanted. Did they then ask for supremacy over others? No. The U.S. gave the mice cookies, and they didn't ask for milk.

[irishdragonlord]

Buddy said:

And to that degree, nor does saying that there is a Satan have any basis to me.

Using that logic, your beliefs had the same effect. Saying the sky is red is a blatant lie, not a belief.

[/quote]
If that is the case, then you need to better phrase yourself. Saying, and I quote:



Isn't presenting it as a belief - it is a blantant attempt to present something as fact when such is not unversally accepted as so. Some do not believe in Satan - so, to present his existance as a fact is wrong, as it is not nessecarily so.

You presented Satan as a fact - I said it was not so, as Satan's "existance" is merely based on what you believe.
[/quote]

I apoligize; please, realize these are the "facts" of my beliefs, and the "fact" there is a Satan says there is free will. Please try to understand.

Do you understand what I'm saying? How many more ways can I explain this? Honestly - I've said this so many times, I'm beginning to confuse myself!

And as for what Crystal said: We've had so many debates on gay marriage in the past, we're really just beating a dead horse here. How many more ways of looking at this issue can there be?

And, as I feel it needs to be said... People, keep this civil. Watch what you say and how you say it. And consider how others (especially those deeply commited to their beliefs) will react to your statements.

Yes, I understand, and for a while felt the same towards you, but I believe we understand each other now, correct?

And it may be a dead horse, but people are still debating. XP

[The Wanderer]

The said:

This post really irks me. Bascially you are spreading misinformation. You seem to be under the impression that all homosexuals are falmboyent and love to rub it in eveyrone's faces. I have no idea where you got that idea.

As far as voting, being educated, and being a citizen, it is discrimination to deny them the right as citizens to marry whom they choose that everyone else enjoys.

You seem to think marriage is all about doing it in the name of religion and preserving the scantity of it. Number one, don't people get married for love (or sometimes money or fame)? People don't say, "I don't like you, but since my religion tells me to marry I'm going to marry you." Marrige is just a declaration of love that is covered by religion. Further, what religion would homosexuals insult by marrying athiesticly?

As far as divorce, half the people who get married get divorced, in case you haven't notice the rest of the thread. Yeah, marriages sometimes don't work out. Sometimes a couple find out they don't love each other as much as they thought. So does that mean they should stary married while disliking each other? Of course not.

Your argument for homosexuals wanting more is not only unfounded but just wrong. That is a Slippery Slope argument, an argument that if one bad thing happens it will lead to a downhill slope of further undesireable events. Take a look at the civil rights and the women's suffrage movements in the United States. Women wanted to vote. Colored citizens wanted to be treated as equal. They got what they wanted. Did they then ask for supremacy over others? No. The U.S. gave the mice cookies, and they didn't ask for milk.

I re-read my post, and let me re-iterate what I said:

Just so you know, I don't have any real valid points to speak out against gay marriage. This is because, there are no valid points that speak in favor. Think about why they want gay marriage, and think about why opponents want to block it, and then you'll see what I mean.

Yeah... I hate quoting myself too, but obviously I have offended people to the point to where they don't want to hear me out.

I said this for a reason. And it really makes little difference as to whether any of you agree with what I am saying.

It doesn't matter whether you like what you see, and consider "baseless" and "unfounded." How can you prove otherwise?

I don't do in-depth research, and cite facts, to prove my point. I state my feelings on the matter. And since Im not in charge of what goes down in the government, I shouldn't care anyway.

The bottom line is, I stated my two-cents, and I stand by it.

[Stal]

*sigh*

Look, I know I don't have the authority and you people can say whatever you want and stuff like that...but can you guys just let this debate rest? We've practically had a thread about this entire subject going all year long. Look through the archives, there's hardly a time when it's not being debated to some extent.

BOTH sides are doing nothing but rehashing the same tired old arguments. In fact, I look through this thread and see times where I could respond there and poke a hole in something in either side. Pick up the defense of one and so on and so forth. But there's no point in me doing it.

It's like the endgame of chess where you can get into an infinite loop of repeating moves that does nothing. Thankfully in chess a stalemate can be declared when such a situation arises. And whether I have the authority to declare so or not, I'm declaring a stalemate here.

IDL, Buddy, Kitty, TAA, all of you, we could go and C+P some of your old posts as responses and be getting how you guys would respond now. I've noticed you people saying it's a dead horse, but as IDL mentioned, people keep debating it. Yeah. The reason for that is people can't help but respond and make it look like they haven't pulled out due to incapability. Basically, pride and an unwillingness to lose when neither side can win.

So what's going to happen next is up to you all. You can continue to debate it in the same Endless Waltz of always, or let it just end here and mutually withdraw. The decision is up to you all. Just think about it.

[The Wanderer]

Stalos said:

*sigh*

Look, I know I don't have the authority and you people can say whatever you want and stuff like that...but can you guys just let this debate rest? We've practically had a thread about this entire subject going all year long. Look through the archives, there's hardly a time when it's not being debated to some extent.

BOTH sides are doing nothing but rehashing the same tired old arguments. In fact, I look through this thread and see times where I could respond there and poke a hole in something in either side. Pick up the defense of one and so on and so forth. But there's no point in me doing it.

It's like the endgame of chess where you can get into an infinite loop of repeating moves that does nothing. Thankfully in chess a stalemate can be declared when such a situation arises. And whether I have the authority to declare so or not, I'm declaring a stalemate here.

IDL, Buddy, Kitty, TAA, all of you, we could go and C+P some of your old posts as responses and be getting how you guys would respond now. I've noticed you people saying it's a dead horse, but as IDL mentioned, people keep debating it. Yeah. The reason for that is people can't help but respond and make it look like they haven't pulled out due to incapability. Basically, pride and an unwillingness to lose when neither side can win.

So what's going to happen next is up to you all. You can continue to debate it in the same Endless Waltz of always, or let it just end here and mutually withdraw. The decision is up to you all. Just think about it.

I'm sorry... I suffered a lapse of composure. I have no idea why I became involved. Let me further clarify the last part of my first post.

The reason this arguement has no end, is because both sides are right, and both sides are wrong. Because of this, there may never be a resolution to this matter, even if gay marriage is either legalized, or the exact opposite.

Let's just put anything that clashes with religion to rest. It's for the better, since all it does is cause more hatred and outrage.

[Stal]

Wanderer, I clearly understood what you meant. The post wasn't meant for you at all...

[The Wanderer]

Stalos said:

Wanderer, I clearly understood what you meant. The post wasn't meant for you at all...

It doesnt matter. There really are three or four threads that more or less have to do with the same issue. In fact, gay rights was one of the inaugural debates for when this board was created.

Dead horse or not, beating anything dead isn't going to make it any deader. It will just make your own fists hurt.