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Post by TheEaterofWorlds on Nov 5, 2004 19:14:21 GMT -5
The most I can say is that God _never_ condoned it. He just let them make their mistakes while working with them, much the same way he continues to work with me despite my many many mistakes. Couldn't that work equally well with homosexuality? I think many gay people would be more willing to accept Christianity if many of it's members were not so hostile towards them. As it is, people are telling gay people that 'God Hates ***s', instead of saying 'God loves you! Why don't you come with us and expireance his love?' Accept people for what they are and try your best to help them. If they don't change, it's all up to God and at least you tried. Letting Gays get a non-secular marriage with the same benifits will not change any of that. The rules of man change, not the rules of God, so... why not let them have this on Earth and then we'll see what God has to say when we get there? This anti-gay sentiment that I see everywhere- it doesn't save anyone. It pushes people away from God. Both gays and people who see the treatment of gays and don't want associated with the religion. Christianity is a religion of love, I know that. However the people who don't see love from Christians will never take the time to find that out. THAT is one of the reason homosexuality should be tolerated. Tolerating doesn't mean that you agree with it, or that you won't talk to them about it or try to save their souls, just that you tolerate them. Everyone should tolerate everyone else, it's that simple. Humans will never see eye to eye, so let's try not to kill each other over something stupid like who you're sleeping with. I just think that intolerance of homosexuality leads to the kind of mindset that makes people think it's okay to hurt and kill LGBTs. I see the ban against gay marriage as a government sanction of anti-homosexual sentiment. |
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Post by Stal on Nov 5, 2004 19:26:45 GMT -5
Doesn't work like that. The point of Christianity is to live God's way of life as was commanded.
Those people made mistakes, but they weren't excused for the mistake making. The mistake wasn't suddenly okay. To be totally honest, there's no gaurantee Solomon will even be in the Kingdom of God based on how he lived his life (well, through my own religion's perspective).
There were many times where the prophets spoke out about the sins of the nation and he was ignored. There were calls to repent, which isn't just a feeling of saying "sorry" but rather going a total 180-degree change and turning your life around. Actions as well as your heart.
So to suddenly okay homosexuality within someone's church is not okay. Nor is allowing polygamy. I myself am against it, but I'm shrewd in the fact that I will argue someone's own logic against them, even if it means arguing for something I'm against myself. Hard to describe.
But you're right that there is a huge problem with the way they're treated. I've never treated someone bad just because of their sexual orientation. I've never stopped being friends with someone because of their orientation. When I was younger, pre-NTWF, I had one of those "Online Relationships" similar to the tabloid couples here, yet a tad more serious....we actually considered ourselves to be going out and all. XD Anyway, this girl I 'went out with', Riana, was very open about the fact she was bi.
So I will accept them as people. But I will neither accept no condone their actions just as I won't accept nor condone the actions of adulterors, fornicators, pornographers, liars, etc.
There's an old cliche that goes "Love the sinner, hate the sin" and that's more or less what I can be described as doing, and that IS what God does. He doesn't hate the homosexuals at all...if anything, my guess is He is saddened by their choice of lifestyle.
((You also have to understand I get these views because my religion does not believe in a heaven or hell...so we see God as more merciful and loving than many Christians who see Him as a strict disciplinarian quick to anger and just waiting for you to mess up and throw you in the ever burning pits of Hell))
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Post by TheEaterofWorlds on Nov 5, 2004 19:53:36 GMT -5
Off topic, but what is your domination/religion and what are the thoughts on what happens after death if there is no heaven or hell? I'm just curious and you don't have to answer if you don't want to.
Obviously, most of my beliefs come into conflict with Christianity in one way or another. It's a little hard for me to debate religiously, since I can't put myself in the same mindset that these opinions come from. I know many muslims, atheists, Christians (Catholic, Baptist, Lutheren, Methodist, Scientologists, so many...) Universal Unitarians, Buddists, agnostics, and we all think we're right. So it seems impossible to me to accept people making legislature based on religious beliefs. We have to make laws that everyone can live with in one way or another. I am truely sorry that the existance of homosexuality tinkles people off, but the existance of Christianity tinkles some people off too. I don't think either should be forced to stop existing.
Even different kinds of Christians can't get along. I was walking with a friend in Philly and this group of folks outside of this youth Christian thingy started yelling at her and calling her a 'Whore of the Catholic Church'. Even people who believe in the same God still hate each other for religious reasons.
So I'm never saying that you're wrong with you religious opinions, it's just that your opinions only truely apply to you. Faith is a personal decision. If homosexuality is a personal decision it is equaly valid because it is a matter of what you fel in your heart and what the government has a right to tell you what to do.
Not being a particularly religious person in my own right, I do believe in the validity of all religions. (So obviously I'm not an atheist- saying there is no God takes just as much blind faith as saying there is. I do not mean the term 'blind faith' in a negative way, also.) We all think we're right and none of us really know. (Of course we tell ourselves, 'Well, I *know* because this or that says so.') Everyone with faith in their religion feels it is the right religion. In a way I think we're all right- but at the same time we're all wrong. There is a definate margin of error that comes with being a human.
What you believe, you have a right to live. I am not talking about murder or anything like that, it is generally accepted by human kind in general that killing=bad. Yes yes, religions have killed people- Islam, Christianity and the Pure Land sect of Buddism have converted by the sword. Drugs are stupid, and are not the basis for a system of beliefs. This is about how we want to live, not how we want to kill ourselves or others. It's about how we as adults chose to live.
In China many Christians are murdered and have to worship in secret. They have a right to live the way they want without fear. Being the minority doesn't make them any less deserving.
People have a right to believe and live how they want, and someone will always disagree. Im sure you would hate it if someone told you what you could and could not believe, and I feel the same way. I hate it. I want to believe what I want to believe and if I want to marry another woman, that's a part of my belief system and shouldn't be make sea monkeysed with by anyone else.
Umm... the end? I don't think we're ever going to come to an agreement on this. Such is human nature and that's exactally my point. There is my opinion and yours and both of us are right, in our own way and neither of us should ever have a law telling us differently.
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Post by Stal on Nov 5, 2004 20:08:59 GMT -5
At this point, anything I say will just be getting to reiteration/redundancy and slipping into rhetoric. I feel, despite some of my disagreements with the statement, TEoW made what could be considered the best closing statement to this entire debate...
So, I'll use this opportunity to withdraw, even though I wasn't exactly debating to begin with, just discussing, really.
TEoW: I'll PM you with the info, or maybe next time you're on AIM or something. Whatever I get around to first. n.n;
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Post by issue100 on Nov 5, 2004 21:35:32 GMT -5
Lol, agreed. There shouldn't be a band on gay marriage. Because if there was, there album would not be a hit.
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Post by The Wanderer on Nov 5, 2004 23:07:47 GMT -5
Lol, agreed. There shouldn't be a band on gay marriage. Because if there was, there album would not be a hit. A little off the record, but I do know of a gay/lesbian band. But their name is inappropiate for this particular forum, so I won't mention it. However, they do exist. |
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Post by mushroom on Nov 6, 2004 0:14:24 GMT -5
Just some random points:
One article I read that was strongly in favor of gay marriage stated that the reason *marriage*--not a civil union or such--is important is the kinship bit. It isn't the legal benefits that are so important, although they're nice--it's the ability to make this other person your family, recognized as such by society and the law. A girlfriend isn't your family. A "significant other" or "long-term partner" isn't always recognized as such. A husband or wife *is*.
Also, like others have stated, there are major differences between homosexuality and bestiality:
-Animals can't give consent. Body language is *not* legal consent. Even words are not always legal consent--if a person is drunk, no matter how many times that person says "yes," they still haven't given legal consent. If a person is underage, no matter how many times or how emphatically they say "yes," they still haven't given consent. If a person is coerced (or feels coerced--say, a big, rough-looking man makes advances on a little-bitty woman in ways that make the woman believe there will be nasty consequences with a "no"), they can't give legal consent. On the other hand, there is no reason an adult can't give consent to a person of the same gender. Bestiality is rape; homosexuality isn't.
There are also big differences between polygamy and homosexuality:
-One of the biggest impediments to polygamy is the sheer logistics. What happens if each of a man's six wives has six husbands, each with six wives, each with six husbands? How does custody work? Which spouse(s) does your insurance have to cover? What about property division upon divorce or death? There is no such impediment with monogamous homosexual marriage--there wouldn't need to be any adaptations made whatsoever for a couple of the same gender, except to allow homosexual couples to marry as well. Everything's already worked out.
-The other major impediment for a polygamous marriage is the relationship between the partners, and the partner's partners--how do you treat your husband's other wives? How do you treat the children that are your wife's but not yours? What if your husband seems to like his newest wife best? That doesn't happen in a monogamous homosexual marriage; you have two people who love each other. There are going to be problems, of course, but not ones that don't occur in heterosexual marriages (with the exception of the coming-out and acceptance bits, which won't be an issue in fifty years or so if all goes well. Anyway, that *did* happen with interracial and interfaith marriages once).
I realize this debate's closed itself, but I wanted to post this anyway. *shrugs*
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Post by issue100 on Nov 6, 2004 13:08:22 GMT -5
A little off the record, but I do know of a gay/lesbian band. But their name is inappropiate for this particular forum, so I won't mention it. However, they do exist. Lol... okay... |
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Post by Rishiy on Nov 6, 2004 19:47:57 GMT -5
Lol, agreed. There shouldn't be a band on gay marriage. Because if there was, there album would not be a hit. ... Was that supposed to be funny? x.x;; |
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Post by issue100 on Nov 7, 2004 20:32:36 GMT -5
... Was that supposed to be funny? x.x;; Uh... yeah... Anyway...*nudges person next to me* Person next to me: Ow ! |
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Post by tennisblondie16 on Nov 10, 2004 20:17:40 GMT -5
Uhh, yeah, again I'm late, but I'm for gay marriage. I mean, just because someone is different from other people is no reason to strip them of rights such as getting married. I'm Catholic, and I'm still for it. I believe if you truly love someone, you should be able to and not have to worry about it.
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Post by KittyKadaveral on Nov 11, 2004 5:27:31 GMT -5
Uhh, yeah, again I'm late, but I'm for gay marriage. I mean, just because someone is different from other people is no reason to strip them of rights such as getting married. I'm Catholic, and I'm still for it. I believe if you truly love someone, you should be able to and not have to worry about it. I agree 100% with you. In a way telling a person they can't get married is big time discrimination because what's next...I can only marry another person that has blue eyes or maybe I can only marry someone that has both blonde hair AND blue eyes. No that's not good how about I can only marry someone WHITE...eeks! Or someone German! See, it boils down to just being stupid and singling people out. And if you're so worried about what your "god" has to say about it...HE/SHE was the one that 'created them and made them what they are so why would they have a problem with it? Sounds hypocritical to me. |
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Post by irishdragonlord on Nov 16, 2004 17:39:14 GMT -5
And if you're so worried about what your "god" has to say about it...HE/SHE was the one that 'created them and made them what they are so why would they have a problem with it? Sounds hypocritical to me. *comes out with air hole driller* Time to set record straight... As Stal pointed out, there is that phrase "Love the sinner, hate the sin". Now, did God make me a liar? Does he make anyone that way? No. Big, fat, no. So why do we sin? Well, there's this funny little guy called the Devil, or Satan, your choice. Same funny little guy. Same funny, evil, twisting, conniving little guy who is the reason there IS sin. I'm not going to go into the whole story, but I assume a substantial amount of people here know the story of Adam and Eve. We are made in God's image - perfect. Satan twists us. God never made anyone a liar, or a thief, or a murderer, of any of that. Satan is the one. God gave us free will (hence the tree of good and evil and all that jazz in Genesis) and it is because of said will we can choose to follow God or Satan. And there is a better choice  In closing, God. Did. Not. MAKE/CREATE. Anyone. A sinner. God is perfect. Satan is anti-perfect. Case closed. |
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Post by The Angry Artist on Nov 16, 2004 19:52:17 GMT -5
Hmm... This thought just occured to me:
This argument is completely arbitrary -- what is moral is arbitrary and what the Bible says is completely arbitrary.
How can what you say be right and what another man says be wrong? Who are you to decide what is right for other people? Did they elect you? Even if you say they're wrong, that doesn't mean they're wrong simply because you are the person of authority.
The Bible is completely arbitrary because it is a religion. There are many religions in the world. Is one of them right because it says all the others are wrong? What's right and wrong is completely arbitrary. One man's rubbage is another man's treasure.
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Post by KittyKadaveral on Nov 17, 2004 13:14:45 GMT -5
In closing, God. Did. Not. MAKE/CREATE. Anyone. A sinner. God is perfect. Satan is anti-perfect. Case closed. Ummm but wasn't Satan one of God's angels and technically doesn't that mean too that God created Satan? Sounds like a faux pas to me. So if one's perfect and the other is imperfect but the perfect one made the imperfect one doesnt that make the perfect one really imperfect as well? Cripes, now I know why I don't worry about white-mans' religion. eeks! I think my brain's going to explode trying to figure that out. |
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