Anti-Americanism...

[Stal At college no PC]

SLE said:

You know, I really wish a lot of U.S.ians had respect enough for themselves NOT to bash the government. No good comes out of it - I'm sick and tired of hearing people complain about the government day after day or making fun of the latest "Bushism." I don't care if someone criticizes Bush's ideas or decisions, but the only word I have to describe people who lack respect for this country and its leaders - for people so incredibly blinded that all they do is sit around and ridicule the U.S. leaders and everything that they stand for - is an idiot. Whether you live here or not, if you fall under that category... then you are an idiot. I don't care what you think of Bush or anyone else who helps to run this country, but - U.S.ians especially - if you can't respect our government for getting in there and working for you - and if you don't work at correcting the faults that you see here - if all you do is complain and whine and lady dog about it - then I have no use for you. As far as I'm concerned, if you're unhappy with your country, then you should do as much as is within your power to change it, even if it's as simple as voting for someone else. Otherwise, I'm not so sure if I can respect you.

The U.S. was designed for people to have that sort of freedom. It was designed for people to have a voice and be able to do something, not for people to have freedom to slander.

If a person can't be proud of his government, then can he really be wholly proud of his country? And if he can't be proud of his country, then can he be proud of anything - his home, his family, his work, himself?

People outside of this country who hate us sadden me. People inside of this country who hate us sicken me.

While I tend to agree with most of what you said, SLE, let me pose a question. What if there are people trying to do things about it and complaining because they don't like the way things are? Let's say Kerry gets in office and Conservatives are doing what they can to change the country (much to no avail), and they complain. If Kerry does stupid things and turns this Country into something they're not proud to be a part of, while having done all they can to stop and oppose it...what then? Are they idiots as well?

You made a blanket statement there. Many times there's more depth to things than appears.

[Kiddo]

I can understand complaining about one thing or another. Heck, when Clinton was in office I was certainly upset over him committing purjery and getting away with it. I complained, but it was not the incessant "OMG BUSH IS STUPID I HATE HIM!!oneoneone" I hear so much of.

The thing that annoys me is people who write off the president as a "loser" "idiot" "moron" etc. It's a -tough- job being president. Everytime you do something someone is going to yell about it. I don't like what Clinton did in office, but I don't think he was an idiot.

I wish people had a bit more respect for the dignity of the office. If you don't agree with our leader, at least have the curtousy to refrain from childish insults. Disagreeing with issues or policies is one thing. Name calling is something else entirely.

My number one pet peeve? "Oh, it isn't our fault, we elected a moron."

It is too your fault. It's called 'voting.' 'Being active.' 'Being aware.' Not to mention with all the layers of government we have, it's pretty presumptious to saddle everything on a single person. Because everything that ever goes wrong in America is Bush's fault. Right. Go learn the system of checks and balances, please.

It never ceases to amaze me how politics can turn educated and reasonable individuals into a pack of name-calling preschoolers.

[mushroom]

I think, inside the U.S., it's a good thing that people call politicians idiots. I'm not sure exactly how to articulate what I mean, but people complaining about Bush's tax breaks today might be what makes the 57th president think up her brilliant plan for tax reform that makes everyone happy and settles the whole tax issue for the fifty years following her presidency. Complaint is also evidence of an opinion, which is necessary for a functional representative democracy. If enough people complain about Evil Representative, maybe some of the people who don't really care end up "catching" the idea that Evil Representative's Opponent should be voted in, with careless comments like "Yeah, he's as dumb as Evil Representative." And, finally, I like living in a spot where complaint--opposition of the current Way Things Are--is not only not a crime, but also encouraged; maybe the next Way is a step back and maybe it's a step forward, but either way it's better than stagnation.

[Crystal]

Guest-Stal said:

While I tend to agree with most of what you said, SLE, let me pose a question. What if there are people trying to do things about it and complaining because they don't like the way things are? Let's say Kerry gets in office and Conservatives are doing what they can to change the country (much to no avail), and they complain. If Kerry does stupid things and turns this Country into something they're not proud to be a part of, while having done all they can to stop and oppose it...what then? Are they idiots as well?

You made a blanket statement there. Many times there's more depth to things than appears.

I think he was referring to the people who didn't do anything, just complained.



Just a random tidbit - I was talking to my dad about Bush once, and about how it seemed to me like so many of his people didn't support him. (Honestly, that's the picture you're giving. Living out of the US, almost all I hear about your President are accusations, name-calling, profanity, total and blatant lack of respect. The only people who have ever backed him up even a little are all in this forum. Everyone else simply shows - not complaining or valid reasons, both of which I understand even if I don't agree, but all-out, childish bashing and it frankly lowers my opinion of America in general. Aren't you just proud that that's all that people outside your country hear about you? That you don't even back your own government up? I look at the Internet and I see more people bashing Bush than I see bad things Bush did.)

Off topic. Anyways, my dad looked at me, and said something like: "Let them run for Presidency first, survive five years, and THEN they can carp and criticize and backstab as much as they want. But I'm betting you that after they do, they won't, 'cause they'll know how hard it is."

That shut me up immediately.

Did I just offend anybody? I honestly think the US is a great country. I respect the ideals you've got. But the way you're acting toward the government - and I'm not referring to the people who are politely disagreeing here - that's what peeves me off.

*flees from pitch-forking crowd*

[Buddy]

Ninja said:

I think he was referring to the people who didn't do anything, just complained.



Just a random tidbit - I was talking to my dad about Bush once, and about how it seemed to me like so many of his people didn't support him. (Honestly, that's the picture you're giving. Living out of the US, almost all I hear about your President are accusations, name-calling, profanity, total and blatant lack of respect. The only people who have ever backed him up even a little are all in this forum. Everyone else simply shows - not complaining or valid reasons, both of which I understand even if I don't agree, but all-out, childish bashing and it frankly lowers my opinion of America in general. Aren't you just proud that that's all that people outside your country hear about you? That you don't even back your own government up? I look at the Internet and I see more people bashing Bush than I see bad things Bush did.)

Off topic. Anyways, my dad looked at me, and said something like: "Let them run for Presidency first, survive five years, and THEN they can carp and criticize and backstab as much as they want. But I'm betting you that after they do, they won't, 'cause they'll know how hard it is."

That shut me up immediately.

Did I just offend anybody? I honestly think the US is a great country. I respect the ideals you've got. But the way you're acting toward the government - and I'm not referring to the people who are politely disagreeing here - that's what peeves me off.

*flees from pitch-forking crowd*

Sadly, what Crystal says is not entirely untrue. There's far too much hating of people without actually figuring out why they should be hated. I dislike Bush for specific reasons - but I don't blantely, out-right hate him for being him.

[althechia]

Ninja said:

I think he was referring to the people who didn't do anything, just complained.



Just a random tidbit - I was talking to my dad about Bush once, and about how it seemed to me like so many of his people didn't support him. (Honestly, that's the picture you're giving. Living out of the US, almost all I hear about your President are accusations, name-calling, profanity, total and blatant lack of respect. The only people who have ever backed him up even a little are all in this forum. Everyone else simply shows - not complaining or valid reasons, both of which I understand even if I don't agree, but all-out, childish bashing and it frankly lowers my opinion of America in general. Aren't you just proud that that's all that people outside your country hear about you? That you don't even back your own government up? I look at the Internet and I see more people bashing Bush than I see bad things Bush did.)

Off topic. Anyways, my dad looked at me, and said something like: "Let them run for Presidency first, survive five years, and THEN they can carp and criticize and backstab as much as they want. But I'm betting you that after they do, they won't, 'cause they'll know how hard it is."

That shut me up immediately.

Did I just offend anybody? I honestly think the US is a great country. I respect the ideals you've got. But the way you're acting toward the government - and I'm not referring to the people who are politely disagreeing here - that's what peeves me off.

*flees from pitch-forking crowd*

You know, a competent president WOULD be able to handle his office pretty darned well, despite how hard it would or could become and despite how un-American his people are acting. Bush isn't.

Let's pick at Bush's brain for a second. Now, this is the president who took the longest vacation in the oval office for decades at the very start of his term. He's obviously a person who is used to having other people work for him rather than running things himself. He has driven several companies he headed into the ground. As a child, he tortured animals (which I admit I did too, I loved to sit by anthills and squish ants all day). He was rich and extremely spoiled. He's really more of a party guy, so he turns out to act more like a Party President.

9/11 happens, and suddenly Bush is Mr. Vigilant, Responsible, Ruler of the Universe President, which must be hard on the poor guy. He's literally storming around the white house, cussing and swearing at people and getting into horrible, awful moods. He's actually taking anti-depressants, as I understand it. He can't handle it.

Now, if Bush ever uses this argument, that being president is big, hard, stressful work on his fragile little mind, and the only way to save the country is to give him another vacation...yeah. I wouldn't admire him any more than I do right now. We'd be doing him a favor getting him out of there.

But this is just my opinion. I don't think we have to admire a president to admire a country.

[Oily]

Ninja said:

Just a random tidbit - I was talking to my dad about Bush once, and about how it seemed to me like so many of his people didn't support him. (Honestly, that's the picture you're giving. Living out of the US, almost all I hear about your President are accusations, name-calling, profanity, total and blatant lack of respect. The only people who have ever backed him up even a little are all in this forum. Everyone else simply shows - not complaining or valid reasons, both of which I understand even if I don't agree, but all-out, childish bashing and it frankly lowers my opinion of America in general. Aren't you just proud that that's all that people outside your country hear about you? That you don't even back your own government up? I look at the Internet and I see more people bashing Bush than I see bad things Bush did.)

Off topic. Anyways, my dad looked at me, and said something like: "Let them run for Presidency first, survive five years, and THEN they can carp and criticize and backstab as much as they want. But I'm betting you that after they do, they won't, 'cause they'll know how hard it is."

That shut me up immediately.

Did I just offend anybody? I honestly think the US is a great country. I respect the ideals you've got. But the way you're acting toward the government - and I'm not referring to the people who are politely disagreeing here - that's what peeves me off.

*flees from pitch-forking crowd*

It's possibly just the Bush haters who shout louder. In the latest poll, I think Kerry had 48% support and Bush 44% ? Both have plenty of supporters and, from what I've heard, Kerry's lead is slipping. Everything's filtered through a bias – the media's bias, or our own, or other's peoples. Plenty of people back the Government; support for the Iraq war is about 50-50, so I've heard. You don't get "People happy with President" headlines – that's not sensationalist enough.

The thing is, governments are always complained about. There's always haters of this president, or the other. I think Bush is a problem because he's not a figure to respect, or to deserve respect. Not only does he consistently mangle basic English, but I think he seems relatively simple :/ That's an opinion I've formed, and I'd be worried if he ran my country. If someone is a leader, is charismatic, it shines through. Even if you make terrible errors of judgement, your personality can be enough to go on unscathed. If you're not up for the job, it's not hard to retire.

And politics is criticising and back stabbing and basically arguing. All people do is complain about governments. It's never going to change In fact, it shows a healthy interest in politics, one that helps to motivate people to go out and reform things.

(It's funny, but since this board was posted I've read at least three articles that are about this sort of thing. For instance, how conservative America is compared to other countries and something on the Olympics and something on support for Bush. Odd how you notice more stuff cropping up after things like this. I think it's called something resonance. It's like when you buy a brand of car and suddenly you notice a lot more of them around.)

[Buddy]

Oily said:

It's possibly just the Bush haters who shout louder. In the latest poll, I think Kerry had 48% support and Bush 44% ? Both have plenty of supporters and, from what I've heard, Kerry's lead is slipping. Everything's filtered through a bias – the media's bias, or our own, or other's peoples. Plenty of people back the Government; support for the Iraq war is about 50-50, so I've heard. You don't get "People happy with President" headlines – that's not sensationalist enough.

Although different polls give you slightly different numbers, the country as a whole is split right down the middle - about 50 percent Bush, 50 percent Kerry.

And yes, you only tend to hear about people hating Bush or hating Kerry. People liking a candidate doesn't make very good news.

[Ice not logged in]

All right then *cracks knuckles*

I don't necessarily HATE my country, I just disagree with some of it's tactics for going about things, Bush himself...well...I don't like him all that much, I think he's trigger-happy, but hey, it's our fault, WE put him in office so we can't blame everything on him.

But I was talking about this with my father today and he says it's different when you travel to other countries (he has traveled to Europe several times in his life) you are on the outside of America looking in and seeing things that you never would have seen from the inside.

Some countries think we're nothing but cowboys, gun-toting fools who's only answer for everything is killing things. We didn't NEED to invade Iraq, Saddam was NOT a terrorist, he was a dictator, yes, but NOT an immediate threat. I am glad that they caught him, he was doing horrible things to his people, but they shouldn't have invaded Iraq.

Bush is so busy with terrorists in the Middle East that he forgets that there are problems here in America, like a collasping economy and the constant threat of terrorists here, AMERICAN terrorists. John Kerry is a liar, I don't like him either, but he is the lesser of two evils, he'll probably make us look like evil people too if he is elected, but, hey, it'll be OUR fault for putting him in office.

I think I'm getting off-topic though...

I don't love our hate my country, it has it's proud moments in history and today, and it is my home and it always will be my home no matter where I move, even though if anyone else asked me 'do you hate your country?' I would answer 'no, the people here are just stupid,' (though, not EVERYONE is stupid)

And there are bullies when it comes to expressing your opinion, like...down in the 'Deep South', the 'rednecks' don't seem to like it when you go through their town with a bumper sticker that says 'you lost, get over it' since they ripped off the sticker. Saying that they are allowed to express their opinon but no one else is allowed to express one different from theirs is called 'bully patriotism' (again, not everyone is like that, but it does happen and it IS called bully patriotism)

Sorry if I offended anyone, got off-topic, or said anything wrong, I usually prefer to avoid politics so I'm not all that sure what's going on.

[Crystal]

Thanks Buddy. ^^

Classic said:

You know, a competent president WOULD be able to handle his office pretty darned well, despite how hard it would or could become and despite how un-American his people are acting. Bush isn't.

Let's pick at Bush's brain for a second. Now, this is the president who took the longest vacation in the oval office for decades at the very start of his term. He's obviously a person who is used to having other people work for him rather than running things himself. He has driven several companies he headed into the ground. As a child, he tortured animals (which I admit I did too, I loved to sit by anthills and squish ants all day). He was rich and extremely spoiled. He's really more of a party guy, so he turns out to act more like a Party President.

9/11 happens, and suddenly Bush is Mr. Vigilant, Responsible, Ruler of the Universe President, which must be hard on the poor guy. He's literally storming around the white house, cussing and swearing at people and getting into horrible, awful moods. He's actually taking anti-depressants, as I understand it. He can't handle it.

Now, if Bush ever uses this argument, that being president is big, hard, stressful work on his fragile little mind, and the only way to save the country is to give him another vacation...yeah. I wouldn't admire him any more than I do right now. We'd be doing him a favor getting him out of there.

But this is just my opinion. I don't think we have to admire a president to admire a country.

But Al, you have REASONS. As long as you present your own reasons for disliking him, I'm fine with it. I may not like it, but I'll respect your opinion at least. I was talking about the people who sit back and club away without giving reasons or anything. (You get the idea). Those are the people who make me think that you don't show any respect of any form to your government - and those are the people I see 99% of the time. Not only Bush, but the government as well. And as far as it goes, Bush himself's only human too, in the face of a situation like that.

Why am I defending a guy who's not even my president? Geesh, talk about illogical... ^^

Oily said:

It's possibly just the Bush haters who shout louder. In the latest poll, I think Kerry had 48% support and Bush 44% ? Both have plenty of supporters and, from what I've heard, Kerry's lead is slipping. Everything's filtered through a bias – the media's bias, or our own, or other's peoples. Plenty of people back the Government; support for the Iraq war is about 50-50, so I've heard. You don't get "People happy with President" headlines – that's not sensationalist enough.

You have a point there. It really wouldn't make good headlines, would it? (Actually I was talking more on the people online who bash him a lot, not the media, 'cause I don't read the papers all that much, but that's beside the point)

I apologize again for any feelings I may have offended. I have this tendency to stick my foot up my mouth. ^^;;

*shuts up now*

[Oily]

Ninja said:

You have a point there. It really wouldn't make good headlines, would it? (Actually I was talking more on the people online who bash him a lot, not the media, 'cause I don't read the papers all that much, but that's beside the point)

I apologize again for any feelings I may have offended. I have this tendency to stick my foot up my mouth. ^^;;

*shuts up now*

You're far too polite, Crystal
There does seem to be a disproportionate amount of online Bush bashing, but I do think it's just because they shout louder ^^ Also, I think quite a few of those who give no reasons for disliking him are not quite of voting age So it makes less impact on the actual politics.

[Deleted]

I'm anti-American when it comes to the government and the way our society dements the minds of children...but other than that, I could care less. I'm American, I have stuff to be proud of and stuff to be ashamed of. I could care less about what others think.

[Princess Ember Mononoke]

Superhero said:

I can understand complaining about one thing or another. Heck, when Clinton was in office I was certainly upset over him committing purjery and getting away with it. I complained, but it was not the incessant "OMG BUSH IS STUPID I HATE HIM!!oneoneone" I hear so much of.

The thing that annoys me is people who write off the president as a "loser" "idiot" "moron" etc. It's a -tough- job being president. Everytime you do something someone is going to yell about it. I don't like what Clinton did in office, but I don't think he was an idiot.

I wish people had a bit more respect for the dignity of the office. If you don't agree with our leader, at least have the curtousy to refrain from childish insults. Disagreeing with issues or policies is one thing. Name calling is something else entirely.

My number one pet peeve? "Oh, it isn't our fault, we elected a moron."

It is too your fault. It's called 'voting.' 'Being active.' 'Being aware.' Not to mention with all the layers of government we have, it's pretty presumptious to saddle everything on a single person. Because everything that ever goes wrong in America is Bush's fault. Right. Go learn the system of checks and balances, please.

It never ceases to amaze me how politics can turn educated and reasonable individuals into a pack of name-calling preschoolers.

I'm sorry, Kiddo, but my reasons for question his intellect gos beyond my dislike of his policies. If you listen to his unscripted speeches and read his quotes, it's difficualt to come to any other conclusion that he is simply quite dim.

[Stal]

Ember said:

I'm sorry, Kiddo, but my reasons for question his intellect gos beyond my dislike of his policies. If you listen to his unscripted speeches and read his quotes, it's difficualt to come to any other conclusion that he is simply quite dim.

Ember, I actually take offense to that myself.

Did you have any idea that if I were to do an unscripted speach that I would stutter through it, that I would mispronounce words, and so forth? Just because someone isn't eloquent with speaking does not mean they're dim.

[Buddy]

Ember said:

I'm sorry, Kiddo, but my reasons for question his intellect gos beyond my dislike of his policies. If you listen to his unscripted speeches and read his quotes, it's difficualt to come to any other conclusion that he is simply quite dim.

I'm liable to agree with Ember. As I've said many times - when we're able to create whole books, whole daily calenders, whole websites, based on the stupid things our President has said, it's hard to continue saying he's not at least sort of dim.

Although, Stal's not entirely off - people, of any intelligence, are bound to stutter at unscripted speeches. But Bush has stuttered and screwed up on scripted speeches, as well.

Anyone ever notice how Bush never does press conferences? Almost all President do press conferences, at least from time to time (Clinton did them all the time untill that Monica Lewinsky thing). Bush doesn't do press conferences. His advisors are afraid he'll slip up and say something stupid which'll get them all screwed.

And no, mispronouncing thigns from time to time doesn't mean your dumb. But it certainly doesn't help to make you look smart, either. And I, for one, want a smart President in office.

However, to some degree, I do agree with Kiddo - people who do nothing but complain about every little thing all the time (like Ann Coulter - man, I can't stand that woman!) do little else but hurt things. We need people with ideas - not just complaints. It's great that you hate taxes - now what do you plan on doing about it?