Separation of Church and State

[sollunaestrella]

Buddy said:

You almost caught my point with the first part - that just because you're Christian, doesn't mean that going to church every Sunday gives you a better sense of right and wrong, nor does it make you a better person, than someone who isn't. My point is that this kid is Christian, yet, he does just as many bad things as me, a non-Christian. Proving my point that, just because you're Christian, doesn't mean your "moral compass" is any straighter than mine.

I did catch your point; I made that point as well, that Christians are people too. What I said at that part was that just because his dad is a Christian doesn't make him an automatic Christian as well; that depends upon his own choice. I agreed with the point that you made.

[Buddy]

SLE said:

I did catch your point; I made that point as well, that Christians are people too. What I said at that part was that just because his dad is a Christian doesn't make him an automatic Christian as well; that depends upon his own choice. I agreed with the point that you made.

Oh no, he's Christian, too! How devout, I don't know. But I do know he's Christian!

[Patjade]

Some things to consider about Morality and Religion:

The Crusades were based on religion.

The Spanish Inquisition was based on religion.

The Salem Witch Trials were based on religion.

The Dark Ages and suppression of discovery was because of religion. (The world was flat and the universe revolved around it).

So comments that morality can only be achieved through (one certain) religion can't possibly be true. It appears that many of the greatest evils perpetrated upon the earth have been done by people in their zealous fervor to "convert" all to this particular religion.

At the time the American Colonies (the Unites States) were being formed, and the Constitution being written with a separation, England had it's own little fun going on. Henry the 8th had established his own religious people to allow himself to marry and murder wives at will. The war of the Roses was the wholesale massacre of possible future kings and queens because some were Catholic and others Protestant. (That war is still seen in Ireland, BTW). There is even talk TO THIS DAY of Prince William having to abdicate if he decided to marry his Catholic girlfriend.

You have a Christian Pope in Rome. There is an Eastern Orthodox Pope elsewhere (does wnyone even know his name or where his seat of power is?). You have a jillion Protestant sects with their own leaders scattered all over the place. And each of these claim the other is false and hellbound.

And you wonder why there should be a separation...

[KittyKadaveral]

Patjade said:

Some things to consider about Morality and Religion:

The Crusades were based on religion.

The Spanish Inquisition was based on religion.

The Salem Witch Trials were based on religion.

The Dark Ages and suppression of discovery was because of religion. (The world was flat and the universe revolved around it).

One mustn't forget the Native American people here that were constantly hounded, harrassed and beat up because they didn't believe in a Christian God. So right there is the oxy moron of Christians, don't believe in my way you're going to die. Thou shalt not kill...didn't think there was a footnote anywhere in the Bible that said Oh yeah, you can kill any natives of any country, homosexuals, nonwhites etc. The Native Americans had a far more advanced culture than white people give credit to or acknowledge. They had a very sacred wedding cerimony as well as dancing was very spiritual and if anyone was close to their Creator it is them, but since they didn't go to a man made building to pray they were considered savages. If God's supposed to be everywhere who's to say you have to ONLY pray in a church or get married in one? As for that matter, why would anyone go to a priest for any marital advice when they don't even know what a relationship could possibly be like? I don't think the alter boy stuff counts either Wiccans are also people of the earth and use insense for prayers...funny, don't Catholics do that too? If you honestly sit back and think about it, it's all the same junk. Every culture has a belief in a Supreme being, they just have different names and ways to say howdy to him/her. It's not a difficult thing, but certain folks do make it a difficult issue. If people would stop looking at what is different and pay more attention to what is the same maybe this world wouldn't be as screwed up as it is.

[Patjade]

I agree. I have found validity in most of the major religions I have studies, and a lot of similarities. The names and the nuances may be a bit different, but the foundation is almost identical. For any one religion to call itself "true" and the others "false" smacks of conceit.

[sollunaestrella]

KittyKadaveral said:

Thou shalt not kill...didn't think there was a footnote anywhere in the Bible that said Oh yeah, you can kill any natives of any country, homosexuals, nonwhites etc. The Native Americans had a far more advanced culture than white people give credit to or acknowledge. They had a very sacred wedding cerimony as well as dancing was very spiritual and if anyone was close to their Creator it is them, but since they didn't go to a man made building to pray they were considered savages. If God's supposed to be everywhere who's to say you have to ONLY pray in a church or get married in one? As for that matter, why would anyone go to a priest for any marital advice when they don't even know what a relationship could possibly be like? I don't think the alter boy stuff counts either

Wow, you're making some huge assumptions. And those stereotypes are not true.

By the way... was it Christians who killed natives of every country, non-whites, and homosexuals? Yeah, probably some, and that's not right. But it's not right for anybody to kill anybody. And Christians are not the only guilty ones.

It's very odd how Christians get pegged with all these stereotypes and false assumptions. I guess it goes back to the post in which I went on that very odd tangent. It seems as if many people are trying hard to discredit Christianity by tacking these stupid, untrue things on. Everybody does something bad or sinful, including Christians. We would be Christians if we hadn't.

It's my view that religion is not a bad thing. All religions are designed to provide guidance for a person's life and often after death. Is there anything wrong with that?

It's when humans muck it up that people start viewing it as an enemy that they want to rip apart at all costs. The Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the Salem Witch Trials, the Dark Ages, even the September 11th attacks - they weren't about religion. They were about people so dedicated to their religion that they completely gave it up.

[sollunaestrella]

Patjade said:

For any one religion to call itself "true" and the others "false" smacks of conceit.

Why follow a religion in the first place if you don't believe that it's true?

Obviously, religions should have respect for one another and not be trying to kill each other over disagreements and contradictions. But to follow a religion that you don't personally call true is a horrible thing to do to yourself and to the god or gods you say you worship.

[Patjade]

SLE said:

Why follow a religion in the first place if you don't believe that it's true?

Obviously, religions should have respect for one another and not be trying to kill each other over disagreements and contradictions. But to follow a religion that you don't personally call true is a horrible thing to do to yourself and to the god or gods you say you worship.

What I am saying is that to think that YOUR religion is the ONLY one, and to kill others for disagreeing or worshiping in a different way smacks of conceit.

Catholics and Protestants believe in nmot only the same God, but the same Jesus. But they will kill each other because the other does it in a different nuance. Does this really make sense? Does "Thou Shalt Not Kill" and "Love Thy Neighbor" ONLY apply to those in your particular sect only? I must have missed the fine print.

[sollunaestrella]

Patjade said:

What I am saying is that to think that YOUR religion is the ONLY one, and to kill others for disagreeing or worshiping in a different way smacks of conceit.

Catholics and Protestants believe in nmot only the same God, but the same Jesus. But they will kill each other because the other does it in a different nuance. Does this really make sense? Does "Thou Shalt Not Kill" and "Love Thy Neighbor" ONLY apply to those in your particular sect only? I must have missed the fine print.

Yes, I would agree there:

SLE said:

The fact that there ARE different denominations in Christianity just makes a statement about how divided we are and how we act so hugely about petty differences in theology and whatnot.

[Princess Ember Mononoke]

SLE said:

And I am rather offended by the comment that Christians do good things just because God told them to and others do good things because they like to. I try to do good things because I want to please God, yes, but I also get joy from doing them.

I didn't mean it that way. I really didn't

It's just the way RW made it sound, you either do good things because God tells you to or you don't know what's right and wrong.

I'm sorry you got the wrong message.

[Deleted]

I don't even know what my religion is, or if I even have one, since Atheism is often called a religion (perhaps incorrectly?), but the definition of religion is a belief in a supreme being.

Anyways, here are my two cents...plus more.

Religion in School
-Only private prayer should be allowed.
-Religion/belief clubs should not be allowed at schools where you need a supervisor, as not every religion/belief will be celebrated/believed by someone that can supervise. Also, any religion/belief club should be allowed to be started, not just certain ones.
-The Pledge of Allegiance should only be said if the words "Under God" are removed (so that the pledge is restored to it's original version, for one thing).
-Religious discussions should not be held in class.

Religion in the Government of the U.S.A.
-Religion should not be used as a manner to persuade people as it has no true bearing in politics.
-Morals should be allowed in politics since they have no justified bases in religion.
-"In God We Trust" should be removed from all Government items.

Now really, Democracy and Schools are just as imperfect as Communism, only in a different way. They try to make everything fair for everyone, but that is completely impossible. If they allow schools to put the ten commandments on their property, they're accused of giving recognition to religion. If they have the commandments removed, they're accused of denying the existence of some religions. In my opinion, they should be allowed to remove the tablets and ban the placement of them, but it's so touchy that no one knows how to deal with it.

[KittyKadaveral]

foi.missouri.edu/civilliberties/indivisible.html


that is a good site that deals with that Under God nonsense in the Pledge

and YES the Crusades were a religious thing...or did the word Christian in front of that word just throw you for a loop? ::wonders if it was the Jewish Crusade instead or maybe the Buddhist Crusade::

[sollunaestrella]

TheComedian said:

If they allow schools to put the ten commandments on their property, they're accused of giving recognition to religion. If they have the commandments removed, they're accused of denying the existence of some religions.

I'm not sure if I agree with that, though.

This reminds me of the issue of the ten commandments in the courtroom.

Seriously, I thought that was a tad ridiculous. All the Ten Commandments are are a moral code, really. The only one that referred to anything having to do with religion is the "Thou shalt not have a god before Me," which I suppose could be removed; and even so, that one commandment is so vague that it can refer to all religions that believe in one God, so it's not purely "Christian" (or Jewish, for that matter, as the Ten Commandments are part of the Torah too!).

So that one commandment could have been removed; most of the others are laws, anyway, and I don't see what the huge fuss was all about then.

EDIT: By the way, Ember, it's fine.

[KittyKadaveral]

TheComedian said:

I don't even know what my religion is, or if I even have one, since Atheism is often called a religion (perhaps incorrectly?), but the definition of religion is a belief in a supreme being.

Anyways, here are my two cents...plus more.

Religion in School
-Only private prayer should be allowed.
-Religion/belief clubs should not be allowed at schools where you need a supervisor, as not every religion/belief will be celebrated/believed by someone that can supervise. Also, any religion/belief club should be allowed to be started, not just certain ones.
-The Pledge of Allegiance should only be said if the words "Under God" are removed (so that the pledge is restored to it's original version, for one thing).
-Religious discussions should not be held in class.

Religion in the Government of the U.S.A.
-Religion should not be used as a manner to persuade people as it has no true bearing in politics.
-Morals should be allowed in politics since they have no justified bases in religion.
-"In God We Trust" should be removed from all Government items.

Now really, Democracy and Schools are just as imperfect as Communism, only in a different way. They try to make everything fair for everyone, but that is completely impossible. If they allow schools to put the ten commandments on their property, they're accused of giving recognition to religion. If they have the commandments removed, they're accused of denying the existence of some religions. In my opinion, they should be allowed to remove the tablets and ban the placement of them, but it's so touchy that no one knows how to deal with it.

::pounces on you and hugs you:: FINALLY!! Thank you!

[Buddy]

SLE said:

I'm not sure if I agree with that, though.

This reminds me of the issue of the ten commandments in the courtroom.

Seriously, I thought that was a tad ridiculous. All the Ten Commandments are are a moral code, really. The only one that referred to anything having to do with religion is the "Thou shalt not have a god before Me," which I suppose could be removed; and even so, that one commandment is so vague that it can refer to all religions that believe in one God, so it's not purely "Christian" (or Jewish, for that matter, as the Ten Commandments are part of the Torah too!).

So that one commandment could have been removed; most of the others are laws, anyway, and I don't see what the huge fuss was all about then.

EDIT: By the way, Ember, it's fine.

Actually, only a few of the commandments are real moder-day laws... like, three or four, I believe. Less than half, I'm sure.

As for prayer in school, seriously, I don't see what the deal is. I mean, what is this compulsive need to have school-led prayers?! Is praying at night and at church on Sunday (and Wednesday, depending) not enough for you? I mean, I have no problem with individual people praying - if you wanna pray before a test or at lunch, or before the day starts, go ahead! I definently think that should be allowed! But school-led prayer is something entirely different - by the school leading a prayer, that's the school's (and, directly, the government's) way of accepting that religon as the "offical" religon.

To give you a better idea of why I dislike it, think of it this way: when you say "prayer" in school, you mean "Christian prayer", correct? Well, what if they made you pray to Buddah? Or Allah? Well, you wouldn't take that, right? I mean, people would be bouncing off the walls, annoyed that they have to be forced to pray to a religon other than theirs. That's how it is for people like me when it comes to school prayer - I don't want to be forced to pray to a religon I don't believe in. Just as you wouldn't, either.

Besides, if you do feel such a higher calling to pray in school, there are other alternatives - private Christian schools, home-schooling, ect. You don't wanna pray to Allah - I don't wanna pray to Yeshaw. It all evens out.

When it comes to the other stuff, well, there's a simple fact we need to understand: you'll never entirely purge government of religon. This is because the government is made up of men - religous men. I think it's a pretty fair trade: no prayer in school, but "Under God" in the currency and pledge. We'll never purge the government entirely, so it's useless to try. Me, I'm happy enough with the way it is now.