Separation of Church and State

[Princess Ember Mononoke]

Oh, and Sol, it's Unconstitutional that they don't allow you to PRIVATELY AND QUIETLY pray in your school. That's restricting the free practice of religion, and it is WRONG. You could really fight that.

[thegreenmooseofdoom]

TheComedian said:

I don't even know what my religion is, or if I even have one, since Atheism is often called a religion (perhaps incorrectly?), but the definition of religion is a belief in a supreme being.

Anyways, here are my two cents...plus more.

Religion in School
-Only private prayer should be allowed.
-Religion/belief clubs should not be allowed at schools where you need a supervisor, as not every religion/belief will be celebrated/believed by someone that can supervise. Also, any religion/belief club should be allowed to be started, not just certain ones.
-The Pledge of Allegiance should only be said if the words "Under God" are removed (so that the pledge is restored to it's original version, for one thing).
-Religious discussions should not be held in class.

Religion in the Government of the U.S.A.
-Religion should not be used as a manner to persuade people as it has no true bearing in politics.
-Morals should be allowed in politics since they have no justified bases in religion.
-"In God We Trust" should be removed from all Government items.

Now really, Democracy and Schools are just as imperfect as Communism, only in a different way. They try to make everything fair for everyone, but that is completely impossible. If they allow schools to put the ten commandments on their property, they're accused of giving recognition to religion. If they have the commandments removed, they're accused of denying the existence of some religions. In my opinion, they should be allowed to remove the tablets and ban the placement of them, but it's so touchy that no one knows how to deal with it.

Amen to that, so to speak.

[ghostision]

Ember said:

Oh, and Sol, it's Unconstitutional that they don't allow you to PRIVATELY AND QUIETLY pray in your school. That's restricting the free practice of religion, and it is WRONG. You could really fight that.

*Nods* I don't think they should have school sponsored prayers in school, but going to the other extreme and banning them is fairly stupid also.

As to the Pledge of Alliegance, (can't spell today,) I don't see why people are making such a big deal out of it. I don't believe in God, but I'm not severely offended by it. As someone said: (I think it was either a lawyer or someone in Congress, but I don't remember) "It might have been a mistake to put it in, but it would offend too many people if we took it out now." 19 out of 20 people in America believe in some religion. It might not be belief in God, but I'll wager a majority of America does believe in God. If we were to take a vote, instead of letting our dear Supreme Court handle it, most likely, "under God" would stay. If the phrase were to be added today, instead of back when they were fighting against "Godless Communism," there's no way that anyone would agree to it. But now that it's here, why should we bother it? I have a lot of nonreligious friends, they're not terribly bothered either. It's like Harry Potter, except the other way around. As someone said before, it only takes one loud obnoxious parent to get things banned, and my favorite radio talk show host's been calling him that for a long time. I let him influence my opinions too much, I think.

EDIT: Point of randomness, didn't they use the "under God" thing in the remake of the movie Miracle on 34th Street to prove that some guy was Santa Clause?

[Princess Ember Mononoke]

ghostision said:

EDIT: Point of randomness, didn't they use the "under God" thing in the remake of the movie Miracle on 34th Street to prove that some guy was Santa Clause?

No... they used the fact that the American Postal Service has a nearly spotless record and they delivered all of their "Dear Santa" letters to the guy.

Of course, in reality the poor postal workers were just sick of all the letters piling up, and found this "Santa on Trial" thing the perfect way of getting rid of them.

[Deleted]

ghostision said:

As to the Pledge of Alliegance, (can't spell today,) I don't see why people are making such a big deal out of it. I don't believe in God, but I'm not severely offended by it. As someone said: (I think it was either a lawyer or someone in Congress, but I don't remember) "It might have been a mistake to put it in, but it would offend too many people if we took it out now." 19 out of 20 people in America believe in some religion. It might not be belief in God, but I'll wager a majority of America does believe in God. If we were to take a vote, instead of letting our dear Supreme Court handle it, most likely, "under God" would stay. If the phrase were to be added today, instead of back when they were fighting against "Godless Communism," there's no way that anyone would agree to it. But now that it's here, why should we bother it? I have a lot of nonreligious friends, they're not terribly bothered either. It's like Harry Potter, except the other way around. As someone said before, it only takes one loud obnoxious parent to get things banned, and my favorite radio talk show host's been calling him that for a long time. I let him influence my opinions too much, I think.

I just feel that if people get away with something as little as the pledge, they're going to try for more. It's not like it's a 5-year multi-billion dollar project to take out two words.

[Princess Ember Mononoke]

TheComedian said:

I just feel that if people get away with something as little as the pledge, they're going to try for more. It's not like it's a 5-year multi-billion dollar project to take out two words.

No, but it would anger a lot of people, and we don't need that kind of rift. It shouldn't have been put into it in the first place, but taking it out is just going to upset people and is unnecessary. Keep in mind that there ARE a lot of ways in which this "separation" thing has been taken way too far. We don't want "Separation of Church and State" to turn into full-fledged religion-phobia. We need to just compromise where we can, and stick fast on the issues that REALLY matter.

[Deleted]

Ember said:

No, but it would anger a lot of people, and we don't need that kind of rift. It shouldn't have been put into it in the first place, but taking it out is just going to upset people and is unnecessary. Keep in mind that there ARE a lot of ways in which this "separation" thing has been taken way too far. We don't want "Separation of Church and State" to turn into full-fledged religion-phobia. We need to just compromise where we can, and stick fast on the issues that REALLY matter.

Well, thanks for making that clearer.

Although, I still think the "majority over justice" thing really bites.

Anyways, this is one of those things that I get really worked up about, so I won't post as often.

[Crystal]

resurrectedwarrior said:

Those are all some very good points (excluding Ember's thing). Of course atheists can promote good morals, it's just quite inconsistent with what their beliefs implicate. I mean, really, how can you have "good" morals when you don't even know what "good" and "bad" are?

Uh oh.

*scuffs foot on ground* Well, I'm not going to try to argue this, but I think what RW meant was NOT the real clear-cut stuff like "thou shalt not kill" or stuff like that. I mean, I'm quite sure that anyone here would know not to and it'd be terribly insulting to imply that you wouldn't. She was probably referring to abortion, perhaps, umm, maybe homosexuality, premarital sex... the kind of stuff that is fuzzy-like or in the grey, if you get my meaning.

Still, I'm sorry, RW, but that was rather badly put, because everyone does have a conscience. I do agree with most of your other points though, although most of this is generally Greek to me.

About that prayer in school thing. My school prays every day - Christian. So far no one's really objected to it because when they're Buddhist or such they don't have to listen or to bow their heads. And my school is a Christian private school, so it's actually more or less up to them. Before I went to this one, I went to a government school. Over there they prayed to Allah every day. And no, I didn't take offense. It was inconvenient, standing there in the blazing hot sun, but I didn't really mind.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the fact that they teach evolution in schools to you guys yet though. That's against every religion I've seen so far if you want to follow the doctrine strictly. I'd much rather they prayed to another God every day at prayer, where I don't have to listen, than if I had to study Islam's (biased version of) rise to power in my History book for the next two or three months. Which I do have to do, by the way. It makes me sick just thinking about it, how I have to write essays in the exams, praising something I don't believe in to the point that you'd never recognize what the original facts were.

For the full-blast rant about my History book, please go here.

frostcrystal.deviantart.com/journal/2649401/

Patjade said:

Catholics and Protestants believe in nmot only the same God, but the same Jesus. But they will kill each other because the other does it in a different nuance. Does this really make sense? Does "Thou Shalt Not Kill" and "Love Thy Neighbor" ONLY apply to those in your particular sect only? I must have missed the fine print.

Oddly enough, I've never quite understood that myself.... once someone came up to my aunt (I was walking with her) and tried to convert her to the Mormon way or something. I just didn't understand it - as long as you believe that God loves you and you accept that Jesus sacrificed himself for you, what difference does it make, these little bits here and there? I like the denomination I follow because I like the way they worship and pray and have fun while doing so. (I can't wait until tomorrow - the entire service will be run by the teenagers and college students... ;D)

SLE said:

Wow, you're making some huge assumptions. And those stereotypes are not true.

By the way... was it Christians who killed natives of every country, non-whites, and homosexuals? Yeah, probably some, and that's not right. But it's not right for anybody to kill anybody. And Christians are not the only guilty ones.

It's very odd how Christians get pegged with all these stereotypes and false assumptions. I guess it goes back to the post in which I went on that very odd tangent. It seems as if many people are trying hard to discredit Christianity by tacking these stupid, untrue things on. Everybody does something bad or sinful, including Christians. We would be Christians if we hadn't.

Oddly enough, I've noticed that too. People get all worked up and defensive when you bash any other religion. Yet how many LJ posts or forum posts or messageboards have I seen happily grinding Christianity into the ground? Why is it that you swear with the name of Jesus Christ instead of "Allah", or "Siddhartha Gautama Buddha?" And I've actually never seen one in which anyone bashes athiesm, or Islam, or Buddhism, or any other religion yet, unless you count those where the person is doing so unintentionally, and most of them always apologize later. Yet I've seen stuff like "All the f****** Christians can just go and die". Yet those very people will defend another religion being bashed. I don't know. It just seems... unfair?

[KittyKadaveral]

Crystal said:

Oddly enough, I've noticed that too. People get all worked up and defensive when you bash any other religion. Yet how many LJ posts or forum posts or messageboards have I seen happily grinding Christianity into the ground? Why is it that you swear with the name of Jesus Christ instead of "Allah", or "Siddhartha Gautama Buddha?" And I've actually never seen one in which anyone bashes athiesm, or Islam, or Buddhism, or any other religion yet, unless you count those where the person is doing so unintentionally, and most of them always apologize later. Yet I've seen stuff like "All the f****** Christians can just go and die". Yet those very people will defend another religion being bashed. I don't know. It just seems... unfair?

I think the main reason anyone bashes Christians is because of what they make themselves out to be and what it is they do to contradict themselves. They have their little 10 Commandments that they're so proud of (funny that it was all Jews in the Bible that did these things but Christians came from it). They swear by these laws of their God and then toss them out the window. Thou Shalt not kill...Ok, but if you don't believe in their God they killed you or burned you as a witch.(probably dont do it in this day and age but if the shoe fits) Love Thy Neighbor...only if they're not gay. Isn't everyone supposed to be God's children? If so why do the Christians have the biggest mouth in slamming people of homosexuality or other religions by trying to convert them? I follow my own way of life, I believe in the Great Spirit, but you don't see me grabbing my Jewish, Christian, Mormon etc friends and say YOU ARE GOING TO THE UNHAPPY HUNTING GROUNDS YOU NONBELIVER. Honor Thy Mother and Father...I'm not touching that one because I'm not sure about the majority of kids that shoot their parents and what their background is let alone the folks that shove their parents in Old Age Homes and don't even visit them. Thou Shalt Not Steal...well, aren't half of them doing that in the churches? I thought you weren't supposed to earn money in the name of any God or Supreme being and that is supposed to be one of those minor sins? I also think it's funny that you get a ton of priests that molest little boys, but yet the same religion is against same sex marriage. I think Catholics are the only religion that has that sex stuff so screwed up with the premarital sex and same sex issues. Like I said before, why would anyone go to a sexless, womanless priest for advice on how to manage a relationship? That's like going to a blind guy asking him how to paint the Mona Lisa. I suppose what I'm trying to say is the main reason Christians get bashed the most is because they're always trying to force other people into their religion and not be tollerant of other thoughts. The quote I heard long ago on a cartoon of all things is "Just because our beliefs are different does not mean that they are wrong." It also makes me mad when you get the idiots out there that use their religion as an excuse. I have a family across the street from me and when I first talked to mom she was all like Oh My kids are good little kids that respect their parents and other people and respect people's property. I teach my kids to be God loving and good Christians. Well, it's funny that these "good little Christains" have caused so much damage and destruction on this block we all want them out of here and are putting huge pressure on the estate manager to get them out. These 'good kids' tore up my landscaping, threw rocks and sand in my neighbours little fish pond, pulled a knife on my friend's grandbaby (these kids are less then 8 years old by the way) they run rampant through yards, they have harrassed the sandhill cranes that come around here and almost killed the baby (which is a federal offence to boot) they take stray cats and if they're not throwing them in the air they're beating them to death with sticks, they took my neighbours gravel path and threw fistfuls of the stones in the street, kicked in her siding, had the nerve to falsely accuse someone of leaving their child home alone and actually brought the cops in on the lie and the people they reported have to be the best parents I've seen in ages, the boy tells his mother the F word and gives people the finger...cripes the list can go on, but like I said they are GOOD CHRISTIANS. Is that what Christians do now? If it is, I'm glad I have no part of that insanity and it's no wonder why people are turning their backs on it as well. I suppose this banter is just trying to show WHY people rag on Christians more than any other religions. Christians have set the standards for what they are and what they are supposed to be, but they're always the first to lady dog about something stupid and usually the first to do something bad and cry to their God knowing they'll be forgiven while us folks that have sex out of wedlock, love Harry Potter and have tattoos are all going to burn in Hell.

Sorry...I seriously doubt that the rabbits (or Grimm Brothers as my mom told me) who wrote the Bible meant any of that to happen. God is probably frowning on those awful hypocrates and keeps telling them what they're doing is stupid, wrong and mean, but they probably don't believe Him/Her(?) either and so it'll never stop.

[stoneman3x]

I think I see this as the same deal as people lumping all Muslims as terrorists. Most Christians, and most Muslims, for that matter, aren't like that-- but the obnoxious few make the rest look bad. Christians are human, afterall. And to be human is to be imperfect. But knowing what is right and what is wrong is the important thing, no matter what your religion is, if any. I believe all religions have the same fundamental beliefs: That we shouldn't hurt anyone else-- whether physically, emotionally, through lies or theft or any other means. All religions that believe this are equal and valid. And I am a Catholic... the most bashed Christian sect of all.

[KittyKadaveral]

Perhaps, but remember, it wasn't Christians that were burned at the stake or slaughtered almost to extinction (Native Americans and Jews here for those that still don't get it). I wish I knew what religion Hitler was supposed to be.

The Christians caused a lot of death by their own hands all in the name of God. What kind of muck is that? God tells them not to kill, but then he does? Sorry, I'm confused by that. I think all what anyone, including myself, is saying or trying to say is that the reason Christians get bashed so much is because of thier big mouths and lack of intollerance. You know when I was watching this little bio show about J.K. Rowling this moron actually was crying saying he was praying every day to save the people reading Harry Potter. Ok, that's seriously messed up and that guy should just put a bullet in his head to get those idiot genes out of the pool. Mickey Mouse wore a wizard hat and did magic, but was anyone calling Walt Disney a satanist? There's the tv show called Sabrina the Teenage Witch, but I saw no protests about that show. It's just a little sad when people try to have a bit of fantasy to get out of this sick world and you get sicker people coming along trying to mess that up as well.

[sollunaestrella]

KittyKadaveral said:

I think the main reason anyone bashes Christians is because of what they make themselves out to be and what it is they do to contradict themselves. They have their little 10 Commandments that they're so proud of (funny that it was all Jews in the Bible that did these things but Christians came from it). They swear by these laws of their God and then toss them out the window. Thou Shalt not kill...Ok, but if you don't believe in their God they killed you or burned you as a witch.(probably dont do it in this day and age but if the shoe fits) Love Thy Neighbor...only if they're not gay. Isn't everyone supposed to be God's children? If so why do the Christians have the biggest mouth in slamming people of homosexuality or other religions by trying to convert them? I follow my own way of life, I believe in the Great Spirit, but you don't see me grabbing my Jewish, Christian, Mormon etc friends and say YOU ARE GOING TO THE UNHAPPY HUNTING GROUNDS YOU NONBELIVER. Honor Thy Mother and Father...I'm not touching that one because I'm not sure about the majority of kids that shoot their parents and what their background is let alone the folks that shove their parents in Old Age Homes and don't even visit them. Thou Shalt Not Steal...well, aren't half of them doing that in the churches? I thought you weren't supposed to earn money in the name of any God or Supreme being and that is supposed to be one of those minor sins? I also think it's funny that you get a ton of priests that molest little boys, but yet the same religion is against same sex marriage. I think Catholics are the only religion that has that sex stuff so screwed up with the premarital sex and same sex issues. Like I said before, why would anyone go to a sexless, womanless priest for advice on how to manage a relationship? That's like going to a blind guy asking him how to paint the Mona Lisa. I suppose what I'm trying to say is the main reason Christians get bashed the most is because they're always trying to force other people into their religion and not be tollerant of other thoughts. The quote I heard long ago on a cartoon of all things is "Just because our beliefs are different does not mean that they are wrong." It also makes me mad when you get the idiots out there that use their religion as an excuse. I have a family across the street from me and when I first talked to mom she was all like Oh My kids are good little kids that respect their parents and other people and respect people's property. I teach my kids to be God loving and good Christians. Well, it's funny that these "good little Christains" have caused so much damage and destruction on this block we all want them out of here and are putting huge pressure on the estate manager to get them out. These 'good kids' tore up my landscaping, threw rocks and sand in my neighbours little fish pond, pulled a knife on my friend's grandbaby (these kids are less then 8 years old by the way) they run rampant through yards, they have harrassed the sandhill cranes that come around here and almost killed the baby (which is a federal offence to boot) they take stray cats and if they're not throwing them in the air they're beating them to death with sticks, they took my neighbours gravel path and threw fistfuls of the stones in the street, kicked in her siding, had the nerve to falsely accuse someone of leaving their child home alone and actually brought the cops in on the lie and the people they reported have to be the best parents I've seen in ages, the boy tells his mother the F word and gives people the finger...cripes the list can go on, but like I said they are GOOD CHRISTIANS. Is that what Christians do now? If it is, I'm glad I have no part of that insanity and it's no wonder why people are turning their backs on it as well. I suppose this banter is just trying to show WHY people rag on Christians more than any other religions. Christians have set the standards for what they are and what they are supposed to be, but they're always the first to lady dog about something stupid and usually the first to do something bad and cry to their God knowing they'll be forgiven while us folks that have sex out of wedlock, love Harry Potter and have tattoos are all going to burn in Hell.

Sorry...I seriously doubt that the rabbits (or Grimm Brothers as my mom told me) who wrote the Bible meant any of that to happen. God is probably frowning on those awful hypocrates and keeps telling them what they're doing is stupid, wrong and mean, but they probably don't believe Him/Her(?) either and so it'll never stop.

Well, the thing is... most of us aren't LIKE that in the least bit. So why in the world do you keep stereotyping?

[Tracy]

I think all what anyone, including myself, is saying or trying to say is that the reason Christians get bashed so much is because of thier big mouths and lack of intollerance.

I'm pretty sure you're the only one trying to say that. Probably some of the worst stereotyping on this thread. And you mean lack of tolerance anyway.

Your post actually probably angered me more than the post about Athiests not knowing the difference between right and wrong.

You know when I was watching this little bio show about J.K. Rowling this moron actually was crying saying he was praying every day to save the people reading Harry Potter. Ok, that's seriously messed up and that guy should just put a bullet in his head to get those idiot genes out of the pool.

And you CERTAINLY aren't the person who gets to decide who's opinion is right and wrong. You just condemned someone as an idiot for having a belief. I personally see Harry Potter as being harmless, like the MAJORITY of Christians, but other people are entitled to what they think.

Most of your points convey opinions by minority groups, and frankly... I'm appalled. You're entitled to your own opinion, but your facts are completely messed up.

[KittyKadaveral]

I'm not sterotyping and the only reason I've said what I have is just to show the reason WHY people pick on the Christians. All I am saying is that Christians have this certain way of life that is a certain way and then you get those that come along and tear it up in ways it shouldn't be. I wasn't trying to come off as saying ALL Christians are like that, but lately it seems like it's turning more and more into a majority on the news. Thanks for pointing out that it was tollerance and not intollerance, I was trying to get cat claws out of my leg at the time I have nothing against any religions because as I said in an earlier post they're all basically the same thing, just called by a different name. I don't care who believes in what or how as long as they're happy it's what counts. I know too many people that DO try to force others into their beliefs by literally telling them they are wrong in their ways. A good friend of mine is a Jew and she's wonderful and there was a person in our chat group that actually PITIED her and said he was sorry she was Jewish and if he could pray for her and try to save her Now what is that supposed to be?

[Crystal]

KittyKadaveral said:

I think the main reason anyone bashes Christians is because of what they make themselves out to be and what it is they do to contradict themselves. They have their little 10 Commandments that they're so proud of (funny that it was all Jews in the Bible that did these things but Christians came from it). They swear by these laws of their God and then toss them out the window. Thou Shalt not kill...Ok, but if you don't believe in their God they killed you or burned you as a witch.(probably dont do it in this day and age but if the shoe fits) Love Thy Neighbor...only if they're not gay. Isn't everyone supposed to be God's children? If so why do the Christians have the biggest mouth in slamming people of homosexuality or other religions by trying to convert them? I follow my own way of life, I believe in the Great Spirit, but you don't see me grabbing my Jewish, Christian, Mormon etc friends and say YOU ARE GOING TO THE UNHAPPY HUNTING GROUNDS YOU NONBELIVER. Honor Thy Mother and Father...I'm not touching that one because I'm not sure about the majority of kids that shoot their parents and what their background is let alone the folks that shove their parents in Old Age Homes and don't even visit them. Thou Shalt Not Steal...well, aren't half of them doing that in the churches? I thought you weren't supposed to earn money in the name of any God or Supreme being and that is supposed to be one of those minor sins? I also think it's funny that you get a ton of priests that molest little boys, but yet the same religion is against same sex marriage. I think Catholics are the only religion that has that sex stuff so screwed up with the premarital sex and same sex issues. Like I said before, why would anyone go to a sexless, womanless priest for advice on how to manage a relationship? That's like going to a blind guy asking him how to paint the Mona Lisa. I suppose what I'm trying to say is the main reason Christians get bashed the most is because they're always trying to force other people into their religion and not be tollerant of other thoughts. The quote I heard long ago on a cartoon of all things is "Just because our beliefs are different does not mean that they are wrong." It also makes me mad when you get the idiots out there that use their religion as an excuse. I have a family across the street from me and when I first talked to mom she was all like Oh My kids are good little kids that respect their parents and other people and respect people's property. I teach my kids to be God loving and good Christians. Well, it's funny that these "good little Christains" have caused so much damage and destruction on this block we all want them out of here and are putting huge pressure on the estate manager to get them out. These 'good kids' tore up my landscaping, threw rocks and sand in my neighbours little fish pond, pulled a knife on my friend's grandbaby (these kids are less then 8 years old by the way) they run rampant through yards, they have harrassed the sandhill cranes that come around here and almost killed the baby (which is a federal offence to boot) they take stray cats and if they're not throwing them in the air they're beating them to death with sticks, they took my neighbours gravel path and threw fistfuls of the stones in the street, kicked in her siding, had the nerve to falsely accuse someone of leaving their child home alone and actually brought the cops in on the lie and the people they reported have to be the best parents I've seen in ages, the boy tells his mother the F word and gives people the finger...cripes the list can go on, but like I said they are GOOD CHRISTIANS. Is that what Christians do now? If it is, I'm glad I have no part of that insanity and it's no wonder why people are turning their backs on it as well. I suppose this banter is just trying to show WHY people rag on Christians more than any other religions. Christians have set the standards for what they are and what they are supposed to be, but they're always the first to lady dog about something stupid and usually the first to do something bad and cry to their God knowing they'll be forgiven while us folks that have sex out of wedlock, love Harry Potter and have tattoos are all going to burn in Hell.

Sorry...I seriously doubt that the rabbits (or Grimm Brothers as my mom told me) who wrote the Bible meant any of that to happen. God is probably frowning on those awful hypocrates and keeps telling them what they're doing is stupid, wrong and mean, but they probably don't believe Him/Her(?) either and so it'll never stop.

KittyKadaveral said:

Perhaps, but remember, it wasn't Christians that were burned at the stake or slaughtered almost to extinction (Native Americans and Jews here for those that still don't get it). I wish I knew what religion Hitler was supposed to be.

The Christians caused a lot of death by their own hands all in the name of God. What kind of muck is that? God tells them not to kill, but then he does? Sorry, I'm confused by that. I think all what anyone, including myself, is saying or trying to say is that the reason Christians get bashed so much is because of thier big mouths and lack of intollerance. You know when I was watching this little bio show about J.K. Rowling this moron actually was crying saying he was praying every day to save the people reading Harry Potter. Ok, that's seriously messed up and that guy should just put a bullet in his head to get those idiot genes out of the pool. Mickey Mouse wore a wizard hat and did magic, but was anyone calling Walt Disney a satanist? There's the tv show called Sabrina the Teenage Witch, but I saw no protests about that show. It's just a little sad when people try to have a bit of fantasy to get out of this sick world and you get sicker people coming along trying to mess that up as well.

Excuse me, but I'm seriously insulted by all that you said. Although you may not have meant it that way, it still was. Like what Stone said, lumping all Christians together into one little ball like that is really out. It's like saying some of my Malay friends or my teachers, who are some of the nicest people I've ever known, are going to hijack a plane and crash it into the White House or something.

Christians have set the standards for what they are and what they are supposed to be, but they're always the first to lady dog about something stupid and usually the first to do something bad and cry to their God knowing they'll be forgiven while us folks that have sex out of wedlock, love Harry Potter and have tattoos are all going to burn in Hell.

Look, I LIKE Harry Potter. And Stal wears a trenchcoat. And I read in Kiddo's journal that she was thinking of getting a tattoo. I'm not going to go to hell for that, neither are they. Honestly, I'm sick of the sterotype that "People who look cool are bad". I have a ton of friends who spike their hair or dye it, wear dozens of necklaces, tight clothes and push the limit on the very strict school clothes policy. They're some of the nicest and most dedicated Christians I've ever met.

I think all what anyone, including myself, is saying or trying to say is that the reason Christians get bashed so much is because of thier big mouths and lack of intollerance.

I'm sorry, but you apparently are showing quite a bit of intolerance right here.

Kitty, the way you speak here brings down people's opinions of the religion - or lack of it - that YOU follow severely. I for one can't have been more insulted in my life. My religion is something very dear to me, and how you're behaving is almost exactly like one of those people who I quoted in the last part of my earlier post.