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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2004 17:30:38 GMT -5
Ember, I love you.... EDIT: Where did you get all those quotes from? I'd really like to know, in case someone tries to bring up that point again. Wow, I've never found two people that seem to agree with me so much... Anyways, I think the movie Inherit the Wind is a lot like this conversation. |
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Post by Princess Ember Mononoke on Jun 15, 2004 19:47:54 GMT -5
Anyways, I think the movie Inherit the Wind is a lot like this conversation. Strangely, there's also something on the website I got the quote from about the Scopes Monkey Trial. There was really some interesting stuff, including quotes from an article written in a French paper about it (translated, of course). *goes to look for it* EDIT: www.borndigital.com/scopes.htm |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2004 20:18:00 GMT -5
Heh, I found something funny on that website.
Ah, I remember the religious debates over Harry Potter, they amused me. It's just a book, for crying out loud!
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Post by Buddy on Jun 15, 2004 21:08:46 GMT -5
Heh, I found something funny on that website. Ah, I remember the religious debates over Harry Potter, they amused me. It's just a book, for crying out loud! Actually, the out-cry over Harry Potter really scares me. Really, it makes me worried! I mean, to think there are people in this world who can be so ignorant... One can only hope these types of people never gain any true power. If so... *shudders* If you can't tell, the whole "controversy" over Harry Potter really makes my blood boil. Maybe it has something to do with that I hope to be a writer-type person someday. Whatever it is, it kind of hits close to me (as do most types of cencorship, really). So just thinking about, thinking about all the ignorance and idiocy surrounding it, it just makes me... Grrr! |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2004 21:39:03 GMT -5
Actually, the out-cry over Harry Potter really scares me. Really, it makes me worried! I mean, to think there are people in this world who can be so ignorant... One can only hope these types of people never gain any true power. If so... *shudders* If you can't tell, the whole "controversy" over Harry Potter really makes my blood boil. Maybe it has something to do with that I hope to be a writer-type person someday. Whatever it is, it kind of hits close to me (as do most types of cencorship, really). So just thinking about, thinking about all the ignorance and idiocy surrounding it, it just makes me... Grrr! It doesn't make me mad because nothing has been done about it (has there? If so, then I AM mad!). I find it amusing that these people say it's evil, but they can't convince schools or any place at all to ban it! |
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Post by Princess Ember Mononoke on Jun 15, 2004 21:45:21 GMT -5
It doesn't make me mad because nothing has been done about it (has there? If so, then I AM mad!). I find it amusing that these people say it's evil, but they can't convince schools or any place at all to ban it! Oh, quite a number of schools have banned it. Including one of my old schools. Kids didn't get in trouble for carrying around a home copy or anything, but it was banned from being stocked in the school library. That was during my Mom's short stint as a teacher. She got into quite a bit of trouble over it. She was subbing for a Language Arts class and gavew a talk about how essential a free flow of ideas is, and how ignorant it is to ban books, siting Harry Potter as an example. She was then informed that HP was indeed banned from the school library, and had to give a rebuttal of her own speech, explaining that there were actually quite a few good reasons for books being banned, and that the school itself had banned Harry Potter. Then the principal told her that Harry Potter wasn't really banned, it just wasn't in stock. Before she could take back her latesst mistake, someone else told her that that was a lie - the book was banned from the library, but the school didn't want anyone to know except for the people who would actually appreciate it. I don't remember what she ended up doing, but she sounded quite confused. |
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Post by Buddy on Jun 15, 2004 21:46:36 GMT -5
It doesn't make me mad because nothing has been done about it (has there? If so, then I AM mad!). I find it amusing that these people say it's evil, but they can't convince schools or any place at all to ban it! Oh yes they can! And they have! It only takes one loud, ignorant parent to complain... the schools will usually just take the book out simply to shut the parent up. I've heard of school systems who require parents to sign a wavier to allow their children to read Harry Potter. The parents have to grant special permission so they're kids can read Harry Potter - of all books! What's this world coming to?! |
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Post by Squirrelgirl on Jun 15, 2004 21:48:05 GMT -5
I don't mind Church and State joining on a few things (like, I don't mind religious refferences in the government), but in some issues I do believe the Church should just back off. I mean, I'm pretty religious, but the American government is for the whole American people, and not all of us are Catholics. I mean, I don't support abortion, it's against my religion and it seems rather cruel to me (my religion teacher thrilled this into my head for about two weeks, even though I already had formed the same opinion about it... Dang, he was boring!), but that's just my beliefs and I don't want to force them upon anyone else, because that would violate some laws and whatnot. I think the Church just needs to state their opinion on the matter, give the reasons why, and just step back. They can't force people into believing anything.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2004 23:51:13 GMT -5
Oh yes they can! And they have! It only takes one loud, ignorant parent to complain... the schools will usually just take the book out simply to shut the parent up. I've heard of school systems who require parents to sign a wavier to allow their children to read Harry Potter. The parents have to grant special permission so they're kids can read Harry Potter - of all books! What's this world coming to?! ACK!!! And I thought those people were just shrugged off like maggots! It's sort of like how the Adventures of Huckleberry Finn have been banned because it's considered racist, but many people (including me) believe that it's probably the most anti-racist book ever written! Then again, it does mock the school system, so I can see why schools would want to ban it...then again, that's stopping free thought and stuff.#nosmileys |
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Post by Crystal on Jun 16, 2004 12:08:07 GMT -5
Well, I didn't want to bring up Maylaysia (forgive me, as I may have misspelt it) specifically, but yeah, now that you mention it, the whole thing with your history book is what came to mind first for me. That, as well as other things you've told me, are a prime example of what happens when you mix politics and religon together. Unfortunately, some people don't see that. Since a certain stance conforms with their religon and they're belief, they don't really care that it may not quite be what other people believe. They don't understand, or perhaps just don't care, that other people don't believe the same thing. They think that everyone should think the same way, since it's their way. And their way is always right. "There are two things you should never talk about with someone - religon and politics." I don't know who said that phrase, but I like it. Though it makes me wonder: if discussing politics or religon with someone is bad, what can come of combining them both into one? Yep, you misspelt it again. XD It only has 1 y, the second one. About abortion... well, I disagree with it because to my simple mind, you're killing the baby, so that's murder. *shrug* If they didn't want a baby, what the heck were they doing having sex without protection in the first place? Actions are followed by consequences - you can't slip outta them by having the most innocent person of all in the entire thing murdered. As for rape - I dunno. I think the girl should have the child and give it up for adoption. And about the Harry Potter thing... I dunno. I've read all the books, but yes, I HAVE heard rumors about some people turning to witchcraft and stuff because of it. Although they may be rumors for all I know - no need to produce evidence, people... it was just a stating of fact and they're only rumors anyway. As for the movies, I watched the 2nd one and concluded that they were bad in terms of acting and stuff. My dad's a pastor, and he pretty much allows me to read them, as long as I get it straight that it's just a fantasy book and not to be applied to reality, which was okay by me, since I'm pretty good at seperating reality from the fantasy worl... OMG, is that a Nazgul hiding in the corner there?  ;D |
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Post by Oily on Jun 16, 2004 13:15:03 GMT -5
Yes, but I remind you, you only have the rights that you do - to follow any religion (or lack thereof) because of Christianity. If the Founding Fathers had been athiest, I doubt any of us would have been this well-off. (And before you go off, that was not meant to be a slight on you. I doubt the USA would have been a democracy [which, when you get down to it, is seen in the early stages of Israel's history {in other words, it's from the Bible}] - probably would have ended up with a monarchy, and those can mean trouble.) I don't know. England used to be a Catholic country, then split away to form the Church of England, but it has a monarchy, and it's democratic. Rome was both a democracy and then a republic, and they weren't all Christians until one of the Emperors converted. I don't think you can argue democracy has its basis in Christianity. Certainly, some forms of Christianity promote good morals and ideals, but so can atheists, with their own moral systems. And, as Ember showed, the USA's democracy has little basis in Christianity either. Besides, with the whole bishop-excommunication thing, it doesn't matter if the bishop doesn't know. The person who voted will know and it will torment them because they think they've sinned. Sure, they may not be excommunicated, but they will feel guilty. |
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Post by resurrectedwarrior on Jun 17, 2004 16:03:27 GMT -5
#1. You should at least try to read what I said correctly. I'll remind you:
Did I say democracy developed in Israel? Nope. I said it WAS in Israel's early history. It was implimented as a fully developed system (though it wasn't completely like our own.) You're arguing the wrong point.
#2. If you disagreed, you should have gotten more information as to WHY I said that. Perhaps then you would have been able to come up with a more diplomatic answer.
#3. But, that Democracy IS in the Bible, check out the book of Judges. It between Joshua and Ruth in the Bible. When the state of Israel was in need, Yahweh would select a person to lead the people. This person would lead until the time for their leadership was over.
This system is not unlike democracy IN THAT there was no monarchy, people of all walks of life led the people, and they were selected by someone other than themselves (in this case, Yahweh).
It DIFFERS from modern-day (and greek) democracy in that ONLY Yahweh selected the leaders and there really wasn't a voting system for all citizens. You may say this is not democracy. I say it's the truest form. When Israel let their fate rest in the hands of Yahweh, they were prosperous. When they rebelled against him, they were invaded and Yahweh rose up a Judge to lead them out of it (AFTER they had repented). One should be able to see that Yahweh, who sees all eternity can make the best descisions for a nation, rather than mortal men who can only see the seconds behind them.
Okies - I've gotta go. It's storming outside. I'll be back to deal with the rest of your post (and several others) either later on tonight or tomorrow. Until then I request you withold your posts - first off so you can cool down if what I said offended you, and secondly so I can make my further posts as clear and consice as possible without getting side-tracked with issues of lesser importance.
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Post by Princess Ember Mononoke on Jun 17, 2004 16:47:26 GMT -5
This system is not unlike democracy IN THAT there was no monarchy, people of all walks of life led the people, and they were selected by someone other than themselves (in this case, Yahweh). It DIFFERS from modern-day (and greek) democracy in that ONLY Yahweh selected the leaders and there really wasn't a voting system for all citizens. You may say this is not democracy. I say it's the truest form. When Israel let their fate rest in the hands of Yahweh, they were prosperous. When they rebelled against him, they were invaded and Yahweh rose up a Judge to lead them out of it (AFTER they had repented). One should be able to see that Yahweh, who sees all eternity can make the best descisions for a nation, rather than mortal men who can only see the seconds behind them. I'm sorry, but that is in NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM democracy. Democracys is DEFINED as Government by the people. NOT as "governent by someone selected by someone else." If the PEOPLE did not select their leader, then it's as far away from Democracy as a monarchy. In fact, it is TECHNICALLY a monarchy, as monarchy is defined as "Rule by one person." It's USUALLY hereditary, but not necessarily. So what you described is actually just a different form of monarchy. IT IS NOTHING AT ALL LIKE DEMOCRACY. And it is just plain ignorant to say that America would not be a democracy if our Founding Fathers weren't Christians/ didn't read the Bible. For one thing, as I pointed out earlier, many of them weren't in fact true Christians. For another, many Christian countries back then were monarchies. In fact, all Christian countries were, unless you count America itself as a Christian country. |
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Post by Buddy on Jun 17, 2004 17:56:51 GMT -5
I'm sorry, but that is in NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM democracy. Democracys is DEFINED as Government by the people. NOT as "governent by someone selected by someone else." If the PEOPLE did not select their leader, then it's as far away from Democracy as a monarchy. In fact, it is TECHNICALLY a monarchy, as monarchy is defined as "Rule by one person." It's USUALLY hereditary, but not necessarily. So what you described is actually just a different form of monarchy. IT IS NOTHING AT ALL LIKE DEMOCRACY. And it is just plain ignorant to say that America would not be a democracy if our Founding Fathers weren't Christians/ didn't read the Bible. For one thing, as I pointed out earlier, many of them weren't in fact true Christians. For another, many Christian countries back then were monarchies. In fact, all Christian countries were, unless you count America itself as a Christian country. Not to mention, isn't it a little.... errr, well, egotistical to say "Oh, it was my religon that made America what it is!"? I mean, I can't help but think of it that way... Did I say democracy developed in Israel? Nope. I said it WAS in Israel's early history. It was implimented as a fully developed system (though it wasn't completely like our own.) You're arguing the wrong point. No, but you very much implied it. What you said: If the Founding Fathers had been athiest, I doubt any of us would have been this well-off. (And before you go off, that was not meant to be a slight on you. I doubt the USA would have been a democracy [which, when you get down to it, is seen in the early stages of Israel's history {in other words, it's from the Bible}] - probably would have ended up with a monarchy, and those can mean trouble.) Now, is that not implying that the idea for Democracy came from the Bible? The Christian Bible? Seems to me that that was what you were saying. EDIT: I see good 'ole Stal has returned! *wonders what his opinon will be* *is sure he will disagree with it* |
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Post by Crystal on Jun 18, 2004 2:41:40 GMT -5
This democracy stuff is giving me a headache....
So I have nothing to argue.
<-------------- n00b
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;D
