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Post by icon on Mar 30, 2012 10:55:32 GMT -5
Well, I have a somewhat relevant question that could address where some of the problem is coming from. And this isn't to make a point; I am legitimately asking if this has been done before: Has anyone asked politely for someone to move their current RPing elsewhere if it's becoming too big/problematic for the main Taco? Again, not trying to be condescending or anything, I just want to see if there have been past examples and how well they have gone over. I know it's sort of an obvious thing to ask, but I just wonder if people are getting too caught up in avoiding conflict and being afraid to offend someone that something as simple as just asking is being overlooked as a solution. What I don't mean is 1) demanding that a RP be taken elsewhere, as that causes more conflict, as well as being backseat modding, or 2) becoming passive-aggressive to declare your frustrations subtly, which can be unclear and cause more friction. But keeping calm and requesting that someone take it elsewhere because it's making you uncomfortable, or becoming too overbearing for the main thread, or any other reasonable justification for the request... I think that would go over well. Often people are just unaware of what is bothering other people, especially online when we're not privy to other people's body language. You guys are all friendly; I don't believe that any one of you would deliberately carry on with something if you knew it was making other people upset. Again, such a request would be just that: you are asking someone to move it elsewhere, and they would not be required to comply if they believed it fit reasonably within the Taco's realm to carry on there. But I don't think that this sort of disagreement would crop up that much, and as long as both sides remain calm it would be much easier to avoid the sort of anger that flared up in the past. So has this tactic been used before? If so, have people been generally receptive to it? And if not, perhaps it would be a useful and easy method to keep things running smoothly. For the most part, this sort of thing hasn't become a problem because most people have gotten better at judging for themselves when something gets blown out of proportion. Many Tacoers have no problem with saying "hey guys, our conversation is getting a bit too RP-ish, can we move it to a different thread or something" at which the other participants are usually happy to oblige. Problems like backseat modding haven't occurred quite as frequently. Most notable exceptions to the above statement being when OOC discussion or debates rise up. If too many posts about how someone's day went, or an amusing picture rise up people are more likely to ask it to stop? At least judging from my own experience. Although as a whole most of the Tacoers have gotten better at judging that as well. People have voiced support of a sort of "PK server", if you would. Draco and Terra for starters. I can think of at least two to five others that might be interested if it were put up. That's a possibility of seven people. That's plenty of activity. Forgive me if I'm reading your post wrong, but from what I can read you seem to be making the conclusion that people who are in favor of this split will most certainly be participating in the thread? Which isn't in itself completely accurate. You yourself seem to be supporting this split, but for different reasons- not that you want to fight more, but that you don't. Just because people would be in support of a split doesn't mean that they would be active in either/both topics. Although that mostly seems to be arguing semantics again? Like Zylaa said, even if it results in having low levels of activity on occasion, having that sort of split would still result in less tension all around. I certainly feel like it's a fair compromise.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2012 11:30:31 GMT -5
Forgive me if I'm reading your post wrong, but from what I can read you seem to be making the conclusion that people who are in favor of this split will most certainly be participating in the thread? Which isn't in itself completely accurate. You yourself seem to be supporting this split, but for different reasons- not that you want to fight more, but that you don't. Just because people would be in support of a split doesn't mean that they would be active in either/both topics. No worries, Iconator, it's all good. You were reading my post wrong, though. I said there was a possibility, not a certainly.
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Post by Dan on Mar 30, 2012 11:52:38 GMT -5
I remember when Flight of the Yatagarasu started becoming a big thing. We collectively decided to move it into its own thread, I think. There was a recent robot conflict with no specific name that was a point of uneasiness for quite some time before someone spoke up. I don't really remember who sent the PMs, though. I do remember people not wanting to be the one to ask it to move, for various reasons. As far as I know, it can create several misunderstandings. Sometimes the RPers who have a continuing RP in the main Taco board don't exactly realize how much its grown, and asking them to move it creates a minor argument. I also know that there was a sort of passive-aggressive statement going around about how people would complain if the Taco was active and if it was inactive. Nobody complains about activity, but that came up because of asking roleplays to be moved, I believe. Generally speaking, not that often, from what I understand. </definite answer> For the most part, this sort of thing hasn't become a problem because most people have gotten better at judging for themselves when something gets blown out of proportion. Many Tacoers have no problem with saying "hey guys, our conversation is getting a bit too RP-ish, can we move it to a different thread or something" at which the other participants are usually happy to oblige. Problems like backseat modding haven't occurred quite as frequently. Most notable exceptions to the above statement being when OOC discussion or debates rise up. If too many posts about how someone's day went, or an amusing picture rise up people are more likely to ask it to stop? At least judging from my own experience. Although as a whole most of the Tacoers have gotten better at judging that as well. Okay, for the most part I'm sensing a general trend: it doesn't happen much, and not nearly enough when it's most important, i.e. for debates and extended OOC chat that cause the most frustration, like Icon mentioned. It's a positive step that people are recognizing to move their own threads off the main chat, yes. ^^ But at best there were one or two examples here of people speaking up politely when something was problematic and they wished to see it cleared it up civilly, be it for an arc getting too big or for off-topic chat becoming bothersome. In a lot of cases, this should be the first response. Like I said, a lot of people just aren't aware that what they're doing is an issue. And the best way to get them to realize it is not a delayed jab saying that you've always had an issue with it; it's to inform them when it first becomes a problem. It'll save you from being angry for a long period of time, and it will save them the frustration at having never been told that they're doing something that annoys people. And if it is brought it to them not framed as a conflict, but as a request so that things can remain pleasant for everyone, I think they'll be much more inclined to agree to your request. It might not happen every time, no, but you catch more flies with honey, right? Lastly, I wanted to reply to a specific thing Drew said about it causing misunderstandings. In my experience of watching the board, those arguments that sprang up at being asked to move were because those doing the asking weren't exactly keeping their frustration in check. I'm not trying to point fingers and if I read those situations wrong let me know. But I think in the cases I remember, it really came from a place of irritation finally being let out of its bottle, as opposed to a request to keep things open for everyone. That's where the frustration then appeared on their side, as they became defensive and used the activity debate to deflect a bit.
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Post by PFA on Mar 30, 2012 12:18:10 GMT -5
On the topic of the random antics vs. chaos, personally I think the difference is more of a "lasting effect" type of thing. If you cut someone's arm off, that's going to have a lasting effect, leading to surgeries or repairs or what have you. (Or the magic fourth wall undo button, granted, but those of us who RP serious don't really like to do that.) Whereas Bettyscience has always been a "lasts however long the writer wants it to" deal and is basically entirely voluntary. I dunno if that makes sense?
Either way, though, it doesn't have to be some kind of strict "anything that crosses this line has to move to another thread" thing so much as a case-by-case thing where if someone asks to move it, it gets moved. Heck, I don't see why even the random antics couldn't get a new thread if someone asked. it would make it easier to scrapbook anyway
And again, I'd be fine with a fighting/chaos thread as long as it's not treated as a separate chat. It could just be a place where people start fights/drag lengthy fights from the main chat over to. But if we were to segregate everything into separate chats, that would just get confusing.
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Post by Stal on Mar 30, 2012 12:32:50 GMT -5
On the topic of the random antics vs. chaos, personally I think the difference is more of a "lasting effect" type of thing. If you cut someone's arm off, that's going to have a lasting effect, leading to surgeries or repairs or what have you. Whereas Bettyscience has always been a "lasts however long the writer wants it to" deal and is basically entirely voluntary. I dunno if that makes sense? Either way, though, it doesn't have to be some kind of strict " anything that crosses this line has to move to another thread" thing so much as a case-by-case thing where if someone asks to move it, it gets moved. Heck, I don't see why even the random antics couldn't get a new thread if someone asked. it would make it easier to scrapbook anywayAnd again, I'd be fine with a fighting/chaos thread as long as it's not treated as a separate chat. It could just be a place where people start fights/drag lengthy fights from the main chat over to. People will treat it how they treat it. And instead of trying to say that people can't chat on it (getting back to the no need to legislate what people can and can't do), the best thing would be to see how people do treat it. But there's something to really keep in mind. Some people are wanting a place to hangout that is a bit more fast, loose, and freeform. Others are not wanting anything like that at all, but a bit more calm (generally) and under control. The two views aren't really compatible. If you try to combine the threads, only the fast and loose people win. Having two threads, two places to hangout is the best way to go about this. Even if you would prefer only having one main thread, this fact remains undeniable. I'm afraid that saying you only support it as long as people didn't use it as a place to hang out seems rather... Well missing the point and not really supporting at all. The ability for people to hang out there and have a place to go is part of the entire reason this was suggested. And there would be no reason to stop people from hanging out there as well.
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Post by PFA on Mar 30, 2012 12:57:18 GMT -5
On the topic of the random antics vs. chaos, personally I think the difference is more of a "lasting effect" type of thing. If you cut someone's arm off, that's going to have a lasting effect, leading to surgeries or repairs or what have you. Whereas Bettyscience has always been a "lasts however long the writer wants it to" deal and is basically entirely voluntary. I dunno if that makes sense? Either way, though, it doesn't have to be some kind of strict " anything that crosses this line has to move to another thread" thing so much as a case-by-case thing where if someone asks to move it, it gets moved. Heck, I don't see why even the random antics couldn't get a new thread if someone asked. it would make it easier to scrapbook anywayAnd again, I'd be fine with a fighting/chaos thread as long as it's not treated as a separate chat. It could just be a place where people start fights/drag lengthy fights from the main chat over to. People will treat it how they treat it. And instead of trying to say that people can't chat on it (getting back to the no need to legislate what people can and can't do), the best thing would be to see how people do treat it. But there's something to really keep in mind. Some people are wanting a place to hangout that is a bit more fast, loose, and freeform. Others are not wanting anything like that at all, but a bit more calm (generally) and under control. The two views aren't really compatible. If you try to combine the threads, only the fast and loose people win. Having two threads, two places to hangout is the best way to go about this. Even if you would prefer only having one main thread, this fact remains undeniable. I'm afraid that saying you only support it as long as people didn't use it as a place to hang out seems rather... Well missing the point and not really supporting at all. The ability for people to hang out there and have a place to go is part of the entire reason this was suggested. And there would be no reason to stop people from hanging out there as well. First off, I didn't say it couldn't necessarily be a hangout. I don't really care if people decide to chat OOC stuff on it or whatever. I'm just saying I'd rather not have some formal second Taco thing so much as I'd prefer one free Taco with various supplementary threads to keep things running smooth. Like 'bloids and the various Splatterboard threads, for example. Am I making sense? <_>
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Post by Stal on Mar 30, 2012 13:51:05 GMT -5
People will treat it how they treat it. And instead of trying to say that people can't chat on it (getting back to the no need to legislate what people can and can't do), the best thing would be to see how people do treat it. But there's something to really keep in mind. Some people are wanting a place to hangout that is a bit more fast, loose, and freeform. Others are not wanting anything like that at all, but a bit more calm (generally) and under control. The two views aren't really compatible. If you try to combine the threads, only the fast and loose people win. Having two threads, two places to hangout is the best way to go about this. Even if you would prefer only having one main thread, this fact remains undeniable. I'm afraid that saying you only support it as long as people didn't use it as a place to hang out seems rather... Well missing the point and not really supporting at all. The ability for people to hang out there and have a place to go is part of the entire reason this was suggested. And there would be no reason to stop people from hanging out there as well. First off, I didn't say it couldn't necessarily be a hangout. I don't really care if people decide to chat OOC stuff on it or whatever. I'm just saying I'd rather not have some formal second Taco thing so much as I'd prefer one free Taco with various supplementary threads to keep things running smooth. Like 'bloids and the various Splatterboard threads, for example. Am I making sense? <_> You kind of contradict yourself a little. But that aside, I knew what you were getting at. My post was in response to this view. What you desire there, all laid out, is in direct contradiction to what others also want. It's almost impossible to reconcile it all.
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Post by Omni on Mar 30, 2012 14:05:02 GMT -5
One instance? That's it? …One data point doth not a confirmation to a theory, hypothesis, or argument make. But please, do link us to it when you find it. That's just what stands out in my mind. It doesn't mean other occurrences aren't out there, just that it would take some extra digging. ^_^; Omni, I'll be honest with you. I think perhaps that what you want isn't possible. It seems that what you want just isn't possible. We don't know that. We won't know until we try. If we split now, it's never going to be tried. Perhaps it isn't possible. I say that even if chances are slim, there is still a chance. Right now you're the only one I can see actively arguing against it. Not everyone involved has posted here. Let's not be too hasty. Capcom cancelled MegaMan Legends 3 because there were only about 4,000 people on the forum and they assumed that's all that would buy it. Now there are tens of thousands of people asking them to start it back up again, or at least to release the prototype that they apparently already have finished. They just weren't brought out of hiding until things were bad, and things wouldn't have got bad if Capcom hadn't jumped to conclusions. If they'd been a bit more open and patient, maybe the whole issue would have been avoided. Like I said, a lot of people just aren't aware that what they're doing is an issue. And the best way to get them to realize it is not a delayed jab saying that you've always had an issue with it; it's to inform them when it first becomes a problem. It'll save you from being angry for a long period of time, and it will save them the frustration at having never been told that they're doing something that annoys people. And if it is brought it to them not framed as a conflict, but as a request so that things can remain pleasant for everyone, I think they'll be much more inclined to agree to your request. It might not happen every time, no, but you catch more flies with honey, right? ^ This. With all due respect, I don't see how this is much different from the Taco/'Bloids split. The Taco/'Bloids happened because a lot of people didn't like what other people were doing and felt it was overwhelming the thread. Granted, this is on a smaller scale, but it still feels like basically the same thing. Also, we'd be allowed to do whatever we want on the second thread, but we can't mix chat with Taco, as we originally intended? Alright, you guys have thrown around the term 'common sense.' Now it's my turn. If your car is having trouble, you don't automatically go and buy a new one. You try and learn what the problem is and get it fixed. Then, if you can't reasonably get it fixed, you get a new car. Same thing with a bicycle, or a computer, or pretty much anything. Granted, a lot of computer repair places charge you $70 just to look at the computer, but you can still try checking support forums and such first. Even in a tech support center, technicians try to help with a problem themselves before escalating it to someone with more experience, or that's their boss or supervisor or something. It's only common sense. (Some problems you're not allowed to escalate because they're so simple.) Granted, the digital process of creating a new thread isn't that hard. But figuring out a name, how often we want to make a new thread to keep each one from becoming to big, as well as the emotions involved... not so much. One month. I request that we give getting along a try for at least one month. (We're at the end of a month anyway, so the timing's pretty good for this.) No, maybe it won't work, but we won't be able to tell for certain until we give it a try. Please, let's not automatically assume that it won't. Let's give it a chance. Let's find out for ourselves.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2012 14:16:51 GMT -5
That's just what stands out in my mind. It doesn't mean other occurrences aren't out there, just that it would take some extra digging. Then please do so.
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Post by PFA on Mar 30, 2012 14:27:40 GMT -5
First off, I didn't say it couldn't necessarily be a hangout. I don't really care if people decide to chat OOC stuff on it or whatever. I'm just saying I'd rather not have some formal second Taco thing so much as I'd prefer one free Taco with various supplementary threads to keep things running smooth. Like 'bloids and the various Splatterboard threads, for example. Am I making sense? <_> You kind of contradict yourself a little. But that aside, I knew what you were getting at. My post was in response to this view. What you desire there, all laid out, is in direct contradiction to what others also want. It's almost impossible to reconcile it all. I don't know, I thought my solution was super simple, but now I'm just confused. <_> All the pros and cons for both solutions in my head are a bunch of obscure hypothetical scenarios and maybe I should just stop trying to predict the future. Look, I'll run with whatever people decide to do. I'm just saying that splitting the Taco might not be a perfect solution. But then again, what is.
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Post by Stal on Mar 30, 2012 14:44:17 GMT -5
To be fair, Omni, haven't you guys had more than one month to try solving these issues and getting along?
Now you're asking for another month delay--nothing has even been decided or changed here? I'm not sure there is any benefit in dragging things out for that much longer.
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I've picked up on and noticed that one of the major frustrations people are having is dragging things out forever and in endless debate. This thread was set up to solve issues... Not to rush through them, certainly, but to solve them anyway.
There's been a lot of interest expressed over just trying the second thread and seeing if it works. There are concerns over the long-term viability, but nothing to stop it from being attempted. And while your argument about "not everyone speaking up" is accurate... You are still the only voice trying to stop it. And I think that is actually unfair to hold off on trying a new thing just for that.
If people want to try it, people should try it.
As I said before, what people are wanting are not compatible with each other. If you try to keep it on one thread, one group loses. One group feels alienated and out of place. What is the harm in actually giving it a shot? What is the logical reasoning for -not- doing it.
Because letting things continue like they always have isn't working and why the mods felt the need to facilitate a discussion.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2012 14:55:38 GMT -5
Actually, I'm not really minding the reading after all, everyone tried to be very thoughtful in their statements - *clicks link* ... Separate but equal.If I understand your formatting correctly, I know what you mean. Okay you guys. This is the sort of thing that definitely belongs here and not on the main thread. All I can say is… seriously? Are you seriously going to try and say that? This is not like the segregation by race, you guys. Nor by socioeconomic status. We are in no way trying to kick people out or say "You can't come here because you are XYZ". Alright? That's not it at all. As many of us have said before time and again, there are just two very different groups at play here. One groups wants to be able to rough-and-tumble, Let's Get Dangerous, more on the rowdy and maybe somewhat violent side of things. The ability to cause explosions and stab people and dramatic sorts of events that cause a lot of damage. The other group wants the opposite; wants to be able to walk in and stay In Character and have their characters be safe. Don't both groups deserve a chance to use the board? Yes, yes, we've had our disagreements in the past. Most of the time I really don't like writing unplanned trips to the hospital or reactions to the town blowing up and stuff like that. It really makes me cross. If I have to participate in an environment where that sort of thing happens often… I just won't participate. I'm not the only one like this, as you have seen. But on the other hand, others don't like having to reign in their characters. Maybe they can't do that and stay In Character. I'm sure they would like a place where they can have fun, too. Are we saying "You can't come in here if you are XYZ"? No. Not in the slightest. We're saying "Please respect our RPing preferences". And it goes both ways. I can also say that I don't think that it will be completely exclusive. I thought on it earlier and realized I might be able to use a "PK-server" Taco thread to give people like Eoleo and Jason some more action, even if many of my other characters are better suited to a safer environment. There are at least two other people who have said they would also probably participate in both.
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Post by Stal on Mar 30, 2012 15:01:24 GMT -5
Very well put, Torkie.
Also a thought, main Taco could just as easily become more freeform with a second more rigid thread started.
Doesn't matter which the second thread really is.
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Post by Omni on Mar 30, 2012 15:01:43 GMT -5
Now you're asking for another month delay--nothing has even been decided or changed here? I'm not sure there is any benefit in dragging things out for that much longer. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I've picked up on and noticed that one of the major frustrations people are having is dragging things out forever and in endless debate. This thread was set up to solve issues... Not to rush through them, certainly, but to solve them anyway. And while your argument about "not everyone speaking up" is accurate... You are still the only voice trying to stop it. And I think that is actually unfair to hold off on trying a new thing just for that. If people want to try it, people should try it. What is the harm in actually giving it a shot? What is the logical reasoning for -not- doing it. ... Really? Because I was under the impression that we were making a lot of progress toward how we could get along. I figured we could give that a try, since it seems like not a lot of effort has been put into doing so in the past. What's been suggested (and I'm not talking about the second-Taco thing) seems a lot different from what's actually been done.The harm in giving it a shot is that one party still loses. In fact, all things considered, I think two parties will probably technically lose. I'm not trying to drag a debate out. More like I'm trying to drag a potential win-win solution out of hiding. We could possibly bump it down to half-a-month, but I feel that a single week is probably too short. I really think we should have some time to give stuff another chance and give people to think, evaluate, and calm down. I really think setting up a 'fight allowed along with everything else' area is rushing, and that it will catch some people off-guard, particularly those that haven't even looked yet. I really think we should put on the brakes a little and make sure we're seeing things clearly before we jump in.
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Post by Stal on Mar 30, 2012 15:04:38 GMT -5
Now you're asking for another month delay--nothing has even been decided or changed here? I'm not sure there is any benefit in dragging things out for that much longer. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I've picked up on and noticed that one of the major frustrations people are having is dragging things out forever and in endless debate. This thread was set up to solve issues... Not to rush through them, certainly, but to solve them anyway. And while your argument about "not everyone speaking up" is accurate... You are still the only voice trying to stop it. And I think that is actually unfair to hold off on trying a new thing just for that. If people want to try it, people should try it. What is the harm in actually giving it a shot? What is the logical reasoning for -not- doing it. ... Really? Because I was under the impression that we were making a lot of progress toward how we could get along. I figured we could give that a try, since it seems like not a lot of effort has been put into doing so in the past. What's been suggested (and I'm not talking about the second-Taco thing) seems a lot different from what's actually been done.The harm in giving it a shot is that one party still loses. In fact, all things considered, I think two parties will probably technically lose. I'm not trying to drag a debate out. More like I'm trying to drag a potential win-win solution out of hiding. We could possibly bump it down to half-a-month, but I feel that a single week is probably too short. I really think we should have some time to give stuff another chance and give people to think, evaluate, and calm down. I really think setting up a 'fight allowed along with everything else' area is rushing, and that it will catch some people off-guard, particularly those that haven't even looked yet. I really think we should put on the brakes a little and make sure we're seeing things clearly before we jump in. Okay. These are feelings. Opinions. Can you give a well-reasoned logical argument about why it would actually cause harm, why there is damage in trying something new? That has so far been nebulous and undefined. If you feel that strongly about it, please, elaborate on the harm and damage.
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