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Post by Omni on May 6, 2012 2:15:03 GMT -5
Holy barnacles, there's a lot to respond to. You never told me that you disliked debating in of itself. I was under the impression that you enjoyed it, at least in the sense of 'I like it if I can get the other person to think the way I do.' The fact that you continued, and continued, and keep on continuing to do it convinced me of this. In fact, even now you seem to be trying to continue to do so, after you stated that you hate it. I'm okay with debates, because people who have open minds and are willing to accept that they may be wrong are supposed to be the ones engaged in them. What we have are fights. There are no arguments being started in that post. Perhaps you meant a different one? I'm open to new ideas. It's just that in of itself, a statement is just a statement, and I'm not terribly inclined to believe a claim without something to back it up, especially if I've seen some very strong evidence to the contrary. This is a big reason why I try to look stuff up when I give my reason for something. Tried that, it only gave you the impression that I suddenly agreed with you. I don't seem to remember this. Still, did you outright state that you just wanted to stop, or did you just say nothing? Either way, that was then, this is now. We hadn't had this debate back then. I'm willing to try again. Tried that, you forgot. So for future reference: If you have a question about how something techy works, answer the question yourself. I avoid concrete answers on how things work because that's the sort of thing that dates science fiction quickly. Anything I carefully research today will be changed in 5-10 years, and things we can only dream of today will exist and be commonplace 'tomorrow'. Yeah, that sounds like me. Still, letting me know the name of the thing to research would be helpful. Considering I had complaints given at the city being infected and I was given permission to remove it, it seems pretty obvious that those who wanted to get involved did, and those who didn't were afraid they would be forced to. Which they would have been, because even though they didn't have to get infected themselves, random city citizens would have been and they would have had to deal with that. I seem to remember reassuring them several times that they didn't need to worry, and they didn't need to join in if they didn't want to. Of course, I know how flimsy memory can be, so that's not the best claim, and I'm not inclined to dig up this stuff at this time. We didn't agree to do it, we just did it. Does Protoman vs. Caracura ring a bell? We didn't try to do that, that's just something that happened because of mistakes. XD But yeah. This is a big reason why I tend to ask for details, especially in fights. Granted, I may have swung too far to the other side of the pendulum, though I would still like you to know that often, when I'm not sure what's going on and asking for details, the PvC incident often comes to mind. (For those who don't know, ProtoMan vs. Caracura is a fightscene we RPed where because one, little, detail, wasn't mentioned, misinterpretations occurred and things ended up being a mess. We had to backtrack and rewrite quite a bit. It left an impression on my RP behavior. Granted, the misinterpretation was a particularly opposite one, but still.) It worked out for me that month I didn't show up at the Taco. I only came back because I got that message you sent me and then I lied to you because I didn't feel comfortable informing you that my absence had been because I was tired of dealing with you. "Hurt me with the truth, but never comfort me with a lie." -- Picture I saw on Facebook. I'm not angry about it. Disappointed, yes, but not angry. It's not general inaccuracies that get annoying, it's very specific ones when the characters you rp share your religious, political, and cultural beliefs. Like Dr. Light saying woman aren't as capable as men, Protoman saying the world is too big for humans to ever trash all of it and or use all the resources, or Hidden Phantom implying that parents don't love their children if they don't homeschool them. It is annoying when the characters you rp act just like you. First off. He didn't say they weren't as capable. He said they generally weren't as capable at specific things; that they had different specialities. Secondly, please understand that not every aspect of the characters is clearly defined. I can make a guess based off of what I know, but after a point... What am I supposed to do? However, when I RP opinions like that, I leave out parts that they definitely wouldn't know or believe, try to flavor it with their personality and upbringings, and I won't do it if I feel it's genuinely improbable. There are some things that I would never have certain characters say or believe, at least not without some major event happening to help give them a paradigm shift. It's nigh impossible for the way I see and portray things to not be influenced by my knowledge and beliefs, but even in the more-extreme cases, I try to keep it so that at least, at the very least, it's not entirely me talking. There's a difference between not sugar coating and being a jerk. Indeed, to the point where I wonder how the two could be confused. Your attempts at being nice tend to come off fake, condescending, and even more insulting then your harshness. How?!You should consider how what you will say make others feel. Ask yourself if something really matters. If they didn't ask for a critique then you should probably keep your criticisms to yourself. Maybe compliment something you do approve of. I try. I try hard to think of such things... But I'm no mind reader. More often than not, even when trying to see how something could be interpreted as mean, I get reactions that are far different from anything I would have thought of. It's just... something that doesn't come naturally. I'm finding myself at a loss. I was extremely excited when you started your first class, for many reasons plus I hoped it would help with your social skills. If it's had an effect it wasn't large enough to be noticeable. I'm still holding out for when you get your first job. Sorry. My classes so far mostly involve sitting in front of a computer and reading books, and I don't have lunch period or gym. And one time when I did get into a conversation, the instructor asked us to stop. One social thing I've been doing though is attending various church activities. They really have a bunch of them, and I usually try to attend when I can. I don't think learning in the class is really going to help you. I took so many psychology classes that if I had fit in one more I'd have a degree. There is a big gap between theory and practice. We'll see. From what I've seen, it really is a different format than the other classes I've taken, and I'm pretty sure it will involve actual interaction to an extent. And what I've heard so far from a 'relations' chapter does seem to suggest a lot of options that I wouldn't have considered. You are being provocative. What do you call your short response? And turning passive-aggressive into deceptive-aggressive is an act of passive-aggressiveness itself. How?... A way to buy myself some time to work on something for a job application that had a fast-approaching deadline? I'm not the one changing it. I heard about it and thought the concept sounded reasonable. ('Passive' means that you're not doing anything, while 'deceptive' means you're trying to fool people into not doing anything when you really are. If anything, what I'm doing really is passive-aggressive. Or maybe stupid-agressive at some times...) It IS a one-way deal. That is what I am angry about. I name my character's attacks and color code them because you asked me to. I also color code my characters because you asked. I make reference sheets for you and take the time to make sure you see and understand what something does before you ever have to deal with it. And you don't even have the courtesy to acknowledge what has been shown to you, choosing to follow your own interpretation. You also don't have the courtesy to describe your own attacks. Instead you link to a stat sheet. How a fiction weapon affects a fictional metal does not help me decide how it affects my characters, especially back when I knew next to nothing about the Megaman franchise. It is also aggravating that you demand more detail out of me then you yourself can give, and you require me to explain everything my character does and have repeatedly diagnosed them with various mental illnesses. When called out on your behavior you resort to name calling and derogatory remarks, such as when I became irritated at you for surrounding my characters with enemies and not bothering to write it out. I continued to write as though they were not surrounded and was only clued in when discussing stuff with you on the side. And you called me a godmodder for wanting that sort of information. They weren't hidden or trying to be stealthy, there was no reason for my characters to not know they were there. Simply put, if there's room for interpretation, there's room for interpretation, whether or not it's been shown. Don't get me wrong, some things just tend to be difficult to notice by nature. I feel like I probably can give it. Each experience tells/reminds me to do a certain something, and they build. It takes time, particularly to find a balance, rather than swinging to one extreme or another. Please, calm down. And please understand, you would be surprised at the typed of troubles that the average person has, and the problems that few people are exempt from. Nobody's perfect. Everybody has a problem of some sort. Nobody's exempt. I don't consider myself exempt from things, even after reading about them and getting advice on how to avoid them. In some cases, if anything, I may be worse. Guys, please... Socializing and clear, inoffensive communication is not something that comes easily to me. Nobody's perfect; everyone has their weaknesses, and this is one of my big ones. I feel like I could give it all my effort and I would still fall short. And after a point... I feel like I wouldn't be true to myself. I do still believe that lack of audible communication is probably a big part of it. While I do still have the occasional problem, I don't think I've ever had this type of trouble speaking to someone live, even if it was over the phone or something. Still, where I do make mistakes, I can learn. Granted, socializing is something I have trouble in particular with because, as my dad was telling me, the rules keep changing, which is something I do not easily adapt to. At least not without being told outright what the changes are. I feel like I get a lot of mixed messages, and sometimes I feel like I'm being told to do something that I consider (for lack of a better word) immoral. I'd rather come clean on something than lie about it. I'd rather not lie at all. I'm not going to deny things that I know to be true, one way or another. Little things, varied nuances, they confuse me more than they come to me. Some of the bigger mistakes though? I can learn from those, easily. As I mentioned to Scrac, 'that was then, this is now.' I can learn and mature, and when it comes to older things, bigger things, there's a good chance I really have learned something already. But time and time again, I see people bringing up old stuff and holding it against me, letting it stack up in their views of me and acting on it. I'm tired of being treated that way. I don't want there to be animosity... I just want it to stop. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying people that do that are terrible sinners and need to repent or anything like that. I'm not even asking for an apology. I just want enough respect that I can try to make amends somehow, that things of the past can be let go of - particularly really old stuff - not snap at me when something new does come up, and that I can try again. Really, in some ways, I'd like to just start over with a clean slate. Whatever the case, I'd like to be given another chance.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2012 17:13:56 GMT -5
zy you are awesome and helpful ---
It's impolite to ignore a question.
I like to RP. But when I see huge fights starting over minor details that have no bearing on the plot, I don't want to RP, because I don't like those arguments and I don't want to get into one. I am wary of RPing with you because I don't want you to nitpick my posts. I don't have a lot of patience for that sort of thing.
Asking for a lot of details is the issue, though. When posts are nitpicked and people are asked about how the physics of an attack work or some other small detail or little to no consequence, RPing becomes a chore. I feel like you're not considering that you could be wrong, and that you're not taking what Torkie, Scrac, and myself have to say seriously. As Zylaa said, you've dismissed our problems with your questions, and you are saying that it's our attitude that's the problem instead of your questions.
(Most other people have addressed the points that I had wanted to make, regarding the anon and Wolfer's concerns.)
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Post by Also hurt on May 6, 2012 23:35:55 GMT -5
Omni, I feel that you're asking to start over with a clean slate without understanding how to prevent yourself from muddying it again. It seems that you're asking "How?!" to statements saying you've been rude and hurtful in the past, to back up my point.
Please, I ask that posts are read over before they are sent. Putting oneself in the shoes of someone else and reading the message they typed as if someone that hurt them sent it... It makes you think. If someone had hurt you greatly in the past, and they responded to your feelings with a captioned image stating "attitude is everything", I think that sending that image would've been rethought.
Furthermore, please be careful with how many of those custom smileys you use per post. It unintentionally comes across like you do not take this seriously.
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Post by Sage Harpuia on May 10, 2012 11:21:33 GMT -5
I'm going to stay out of the current discussion at hand, being that I have nothing further to add than everyone else has said.
However, I want to bring a small issue to the plate. If one wants to call it small.
You see, I find it hard to begin communications with most people here (note, I said most, there are exceptions). I'm usually the last to respond to a conversation before it just ceases, if it even starts. I find it hard to talk with anyone, and it feels like they are avoiding doing so. It has led me to believe that perhaps I am doing something wrong, or am not pleasant to deal with. Most attempts at a pleasant conversation have failed. There's only one or two people I can have an extended conversation with, and if we try to have a conversation with three, I am usually left behind by the time I return to the taco (Bear in mind that I'm not always around here, as I have college and classes to attend to, as well as projects to finish), or my half has been ignored. While I am aware this forum is for casual chat and roleplay, as in the taco, it is still hard to hold a conversation, at least for me.
Not to mention the fact that I've made posts directed at people, which have been blatantly ignored.
It's either really easy to just glaze one's gaze over my post or people are avoiding me. Which makes me feel unwelcome, and is seriously making me reconsider coming here on my spare time.
As such, I'd like to know if there are problems people have with me.
PS: It also makes me feel like the taco has cliques going on, or however you spell that eve
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2012 16:41:01 GMT -5
Wolfer, I've been communicating with you and other people, but I want to be vocal about this here so others can see the effort being put into this. I'll mail you slightly more details in a moment, but the general idea should be known.
I've talked to four other people so far in addition to myself. None of them hate you. And again, I don't think any of the others do, either.
I think you came at a very bad time, and the nature of the Taco tends to cause abandoned conversations to die off. I now how that is, being in college myself, but you're not the only one it happens to.
It really hurts and frustrates me that you are saying this, because I just don't see anything happening to you that is different than what happens to us. The truth is that even for the "regulars" and the "old timers", the amount of effort put in does not always correlate to what you get back. A person's timing in general can affect this, but also right now just isn't the best of times…?
I can't speak for everyone of course, but there it is.
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Post by Sage Harpuia on May 10, 2012 18:21:39 GMT -5
I never intended to hurt nor frustrate anyone, being that I was clearly expressing my concern not that people were ignoring me, but that maybe I was doing something wrong and people were too put off to converse with me. However, if it's not the case, then yes, you're right and I came at a bad time.
Still, the fact remains, that if people have an issue with how I behave, I'd rather they tell me about it so I try hard to change it, or we can come to a compromise. I will not feel insulted if people think something about me is bothersome, I would rather we sort things out and shake hands. I am rather reasonable, or at least I think I am, so we can hopefully sort things out IF you guys think something of me is bothering yeh.
Still, thank you for bringing things a bit further in public, and thank you for taking the time to at least try and respond to my... issues.
I lack a large amount of confidence as per my behaviour around people due to past experiences, and I am hoping I was not a bother.
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By the way, Omni, I recommend you take a walk out on your own to a park where you can find a lot of people, then try and socialize with them (if you feel too unsafe and own a large pet like a dog, go ahead and take it with you. People are also more compelled to talk to others who have very amiable-looking pets, and it can protect you in case a stranger tries something with you). From what I know about you, you lack a bit of comprehension as to how people will react depending on your wording. It's not bad as much as it is that you lack experience. Interacting with strangers might help you understand it better than mere communications on the internet. This is, though, a suggestion, but please at least consider. I'm pretty socially awkward myself, but I try to fix it by interacting with people around me more often, even if I am horribly scared of strangers. It could help you as well.
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Post by Gelquie on May 10, 2012 20:09:49 GMT -5
Well, I was going to save posting for later when I have all of my thoughts in order. But I do want to say some things before I go back to thinking about what I want to say.
First, a reply to Wolfer: I don't think you're being a problem or anything, and I don't really have any issues with how you behave. Admittedly, I also don't know you very well, and I think you started coming here during my hiatus from the forum, so you probably don't know me that well either. But I've been watching things and I don't really have any issues with your behavior. And I commend you for your approach to the problem.
I think you're right in that the Taco seems to have its own little cliques. Then again, the Taco as a whole seems pretty clique-y by itself. I've been on the Taco since the beginning, but I can see how it'd be really hard for new people to get in if they don't know how things go with established Taco-people. (And I mostly mean people new to the area of the forum, not people new to roleplaying.) Though the problem with new people not knowing what happened with X character in the last Y months seems to have been lessened; I think things have gotten better with that.
But there's still the thing with new people and people not responding as much to them. As much as I hate to say it, cliques are a little bit natural; people gravitate towards what they know, and that includes people. But that doesn't mean that that can't be fixed with effort on both sides. What I think can really get the ball rolling with not being as ignored by other people is direct responses to others/others' characters. This is especially important for starting conversations, especially with new people; I know the feeling with how hard it is to get into one, both on the internet and IRL. If I'm in a new group, I can very afraid to say anything, and I'll often just sit in the corner doing my own thing unless someone comes up to me and starts talking to me. Other people when they're new group can pick up on a topic another group is currently talking about and input their own opinion, and eventually get into the conversation that way. (I don't know entirely how it works. I think the group in question would have to be pretty open to the new people. But since this is an internet forum and not real life, it's easier to tell when it's okay to jump in because you can see all the context. For the established group in question, they have to be open enough that they don't close people out, even accidentally. Unless it's intended to be a closed conversation, but a general public roleplay place isn't necessarily the best place for that anyway.) Even something as simple as: *Character A approaches Character B and says, "Hi, what's your name?"* can help others feel more included. (And fill in whatever for what fits the character.)
So overall--as advice for everyone--I think people just need to be conscientious about other peoples' involvement and take action if someone is expressing concerns about it or whatnot. If everyone does this, I think it would definitely make progress with the self-isolation of the Taco, and would probably help other potential new people step in.
And I have a few other issues myself that's kinda related to this, but one thing at a time. (Though I'll address them if they're brought up.)
(And let me know if something I said isn't clear. ^^; )
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2012 21:57:07 GMT -5
I'm not really one with much right to speak for inclusion and exclusion as I'm not as active as I used to be. This is largely because of the ongoing issues and the fact that I didn't/don't feel entirely welcome anymore.
But yeah, I've talked with people, Wolfyfriend. I haven't come across a single person who says they are avoiding you. :I
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Post by Omni on May 13, 2012 0:57:01 GMT -5
Just thought I'd mention real quick that there are a few things I think I should wait for before replying, such as Bettyming finishing her post. I don't really want to delay right now, but I think certain things should be done in order this time around.
I'll try not to be too long; maybe two or three days, particularly since tomorrow's Mother's Day and such. If there's something on your mind, go ahead and say it in the meantime, but I'd like you guys to know that I'm not trying to ignore this. Just a few days, hopefully.
(Bettyming, don't feel pressured, especially if you still don't feel well. Your health comes first.)
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Post by Andrea on May 14, 2012 18:13:39 GMT -5
I guess we're waiting on your reply, Omni.
I haven't had much to say here in terms of helping, so I'm sorry. I'd like to pitch in that I think Wolfer is pretty cool and I don't hate him at all, and I have nothing to say on the subject of Taco Cliques. I know it seems that way, but those who are considered the 'regulars' or those who form the 'cliques' hardly show up as much, and I know those I've talked to have really been trying to make the Taco less of a sectioned-off, insider thing. Heck, I thought that making the Hard Taco and Soft Taco was a step in the right direction, because then someone can go to either thread for either type of RP. In my own experience, I've hardly been showing up a fraction as much as I used to... and if I don't reply to someone, I just forgot or got distracted and didn't see it. It's not been intentionally ignoring anyone not part of a secret club as far as I act, or try to.
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Post by Omni on May 20, 2012 1:52:33 GMT -5
I don't know how to start this smoothly, but this is what I feel.
No, maybe I haven't figured out how to keep from making the same mistakes again... yet. I ask how and why what I do comes across as offensive because I want to learn, and because I'm finding it distressing how many of my efforts have an effect that largely contrasts what I'm going for, even when I try to take how it will come across into account. I try to be inspiring, it comes across as offensive. I try to be polite, it comes across as offensive. I try to be humble, it comes across as offensive... It just keeps going on and on.
I don't want it to keep going on... It's been going on for what feels like forever and I just want it to stop! I don't want to keep coming across as aggressive and accidentally bring up a wedge to put between myself and others... I've tried. Believe me, I've tried, and I've tried, and I've tried. I tried considering different ways to bring things up. I've tried different approaches, considering what phrasings might have what effect, and what sounds like it might be offensive and what does not. After awhile, I find myself grasping at straws. Lately I feel like I've tried just about everything except actually letting myself get angry on purpose and letting it all out, and even with my struggles, I'm pretty sure that's a bad idea.
I want to learn how to change that, but social skills aren't something that someone can learn on their own. Whatever the scenario I try to learn in, I'm probably going to have questions. But if I'm going to get answers I need someone else to willingly give them.
I'm sorry for any aggression I may have used, intentionally or otherwise. I'm sorry for having been difficult to deal with.
I will definitely try to be careful about not asking for too much detail, but if I still end up going too far, I want you to know that you can let me know when to stop. I'm not asking to ignore the questions, I'm asking you to let me know if I'm going too far. You may then stop it there if you need to, just let me know when you're doing so.
I'm willing to try again when it comes to interactions, but I need some help in order to learn.
I would appreciate it if you would help me. Please.
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Post by Zylaa on May 20, 2012 19:19:07 GMT -5
Omni, thank you very much for your apology.
And now, some general words of wisdom for everyone, and I do mean everyone. There have been a lot of promises on this thread of change and compromise, and those are fantastic. But please, everyone keep in mind that nobody can change themselves overnight. It's a process, and one I know people are willing to have. If everyone could be patient, and tolerant, that would do a world of good. Everything we've talked about so far probably boils down to patience, listening to others' complaints, and clearer communication.
No, I'm not asking everyone to suddenly be perfect friends with sunshine and rainbows and kittens. Even though I approve of all friendships with sunshine, rainbows, and kittens. But even if you aren't friends with some other forumers at the moment, recognize that they're people, they've got feelings and they have a right to be tolerated and welcomed on this forum. Whether a forumer is a newbie or an oldbie (I can make up words), friendship is not an instant thing. What is instant, and constant, is consideration for the feelings of others. That's something we can all try to always have.
That said, a more specific question: What else do you all think needs to be addressed in this thread? If you think we've covered everything, please do post and say that-- if people don't respond, that could just as easily mean there's an elephant in the room people are avoiding.
Everyone's done a great job with this discussion, and I am sure everyone will continue to do so. You all help make the fantastic community that is the NTWF, and I know you guys are just as eager as me to help it be the welcoming place we love. ^_^
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2012 0:58:47 GMT -5
I have plenty to say, but not here on this thread. I feel my participation here is over unless something someone else wants to talk about drags me back.
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Post by Andrea on May 21, 2012 22:55:00 GMT -5
I imagine that there is not anything left to be said here.
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