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Post by icon on Mar 25, 2012 2:18:52 GMT -5
I'd like to go back to the point Dan brought up earlier for a second, if I may. I do feel like there has been a lot more off-topic conversation cropping up in the Taco recently, which I know all of us are susceptible to at times: someone makes an offhand comment or remark, and soon it turns into a full-blown discussion. But we have to keep in mind that this is the IC, or In-Character Chat, and it's supposed to be made for character interaction. A few comments here or there honestly aren't a problem, but if things start to spring into an entire debate than it's probably better to move it elsewhere.
On the other side of the spectrum, though, I feel like this OOC chatter has also been interspersed with a lot of active Roleplaying going on at the same time, which is perfectly fine- up to a point. The IC Chat often has multiple events, mini-arcs and storylines going on at the same time and as a result the continuity is quite tightly woven. But part of the downside of that is that people who don't want to/can't get a basic rundown of all the events taking place will be less inclined to join. Personally speaking, I've been a lot less active on the IC Chat because I just don't have the time to read up on everything that's been happening before, and if I just jump in with a new character I'm usually worried about interrupting something that's already going on. With the 'Bloids or some other general topic, there's hardly any problem with just jumping in, but in the IC Chat I feel that obligation to make sure I know what's going on before I begin to participate.
Added to that is the fact that I honestly haven't been paying a whole lot of attention to the constant discussion and debate regarding the alleged-truce (now apparently being referred to as a pink magical potato?), mostly because a lot of the ground rules of the truce seem pretty obvious.
Not-particularly-hypothetical situation: A while ago, a small joke Roleplay between myself and two or three people suddenly evolved into a full-blown conspiracy uncovering a spaceship full of alien cats that wanted to destroy the world. Eventually we ended up moving the topic to its own thread. Was that a good move? Sure, it's reasonable that it should be moved off to another thread, since there are other people who want to have their characters talking without the looming threat of dismemberment by an army of space cats. In any other story arc that should be the case as well: if an event taking place on the IC Chat grows to the point where it hinders the participation of others, it seems fair that it should be moved, be it to PMs or another thread.
The most difficult challenge with this is that it's hard to determine how much is too much. Some people may think that a joke fight between two goofy characters is too much conflict at one time, and for others the moon could blow up and they could still think everything is perfectly fine. We don't need to make some set boundaries regarding if or when a Roleplay needs to be moved (I'm certain everyone would get tired of, "omg your characters did [x] amount of damage you guys need to move this to another thread" after a while) but we can probably determine for ourselves if character interaction is becoming too difficult with something going on. If it is, I honestly don't think it's an unreasonable request to ask the RPers to move it elsewhere.
tl;dr: The IC Chat is being hindered not only when there's too much OOC posting, but also when more extensive Roleplays get in the way of people who just want to have some regular character interaction.
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Post by Andrea on Mar 25, 2012 13:11:06 GMT -5
Got to keep it short (relatively) and it will probably come out blunt, but I want to keep up and say something. Omni… You say you want to get it out of the way, but from this end it feels you are trying very hard to work against us. Things have felt the same from my end. Look over your and Drew's posts: This is rushed, and maybe unintentional, but on my end, it feels like I'm being attacked to some extent or another for trying to help. My response: I also want to state that my intention isn't to sound angry or passive-aggressive in anything I'll say on this thread... Please excuse me if I do. I'll say that you feel attacked just as much as we do. And we don't need to add more rules in place of those that were removed. I think we've mostly voiced this, so we're fine. I can only really echo what Icon has said... It doesn't matter necessarily if you enjoy having a long interaction in the Taco. That is fine. But if it's a more long, continuing RP, people will be afraid to post and maybe interrupt. Maybe you'll enjoy it, but you have to take consideration for everyone. ("You" isn't there to accuse, it's a "you" aimed at anyone reading) The other day, I watched a robot duel a giant sandwich, and I didn't necessarily see any problem with that. I also don't see any problem with Character A slapping Character B for being stupid and then it's just a little implied slapfight going on. I'll stress that obviously the first duel (robot vs sandwich) was basically entirely silly and hammy, and didn't last very long, and I don't think there's any problem with fights like that. But there are some fights that are very long. Fights that you know won't take so long are okay, I think- even an incredibly silly fight will be tiring for some if it takes two months to complete. Then there are fights that force involvement from others. If a giant death robot blows up half the square and sets skyscrapers on fire, then nobody really stands there and doesn't react. But I say this saying that there shouldn't be specific boundaries. We don't need some police officer stopping two dueling madmen and saying "Pardon me, is your fight derpy?". Rather, I think it really should just play on common sense. I didn't think anyone would be off-put by watching a little duel, robot vs food, but I would think that people wouldn't want to watch a huge, continuing fight. ... Why? I'll include this quote: And honestly, I would feel a little nervous about RPing if the Taco was a war zone, because I don't want to somehow be dragged into a fight that I didn't agree to participating in. :/ This is an example of other people having to get involved in some fight in an IC perspective. People don't necessarily want to have to throw a character in to die just to stop a fight. So I'll ask: Are the characters fourth-wall aware enough to notice if their duel has moved to another thread? Sure, the villain tapping the hero on the shoulder and going "Let's fight somewhere else, please" is unrealistic, but it's not just doing that, if that's what you're saying. It's also not impossible for Taco City to be the setting of a RP outside of the Taco thread itself, it's happened before. I don't know if I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, but.
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Post by Chloemew on Mar 25, 2012 13:11:27 GMT -5
Haven't really said anything on the subject because I have no idea what to say or suggest, and... I still have no idea what to say or suggest. I've never really had a problem with the RPed fights, having taken part in quite a lot of them in the past (unsurprising considering the majority of my characters are robots built for combat), but I can respect the wishes of others to not have to see them in the main Taco. Although I will admit part of the reason I sort of drifted over to the Megaman Tumblr RP I'm in at the moment is because there are much fewer restrictions. If I want my guys to get into fights, then... they can. They've lost limbs, eyes, even been killed off completely in the past, because... I don't know, I just find that sort of thing thrilling to write. But I can't do that in the main Taco because it'd just make people uncomfortable, and I can completely understand that. Where am I going with this? I'm not actually sure. ._.
I guess my main issue is all this passive-aggressiveness going on. People complaining about things and then not doing anything about it. Resenting people for no good reason. Just sitting there and getting bitter and making subtle little jabs at things when that isn't going to solve anything at all and really, it's just childish. I've seen complaints when the Taco's dead; I've seen complaints when it's active. Several pages of OOC discussion and silly antics without any characters I can understand, but not when people are actually RPing. I get that people feel uncomfortable just jumping in when there's already things going on, but really, what have you got to lose? The people doing the RPing aren't exactly going to berate you for just popping in and greeting everyone and rolling a character of your own. Who knows, maybe it'll drag out other people who've been in hiding because they were reluctant to post while this other RP was going on. I know it's easier said than done, but it's better than just sitting there and getting annoyed for no reason. :B
Not sure how much I've actually contributed to the subject since I'm pretty certain I was just rambling, but those are my opinions.
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Post by Killix on Mar 25, 2012 15:20:09 GMT -5
Then there are fights that force involvement from others. If a giant death robot blows up half the square and sets skyscrapers on fire, then nobody really stands there and doesn't react. (assuming this takes place on the main Taco thread and not a specific IC roleplay thread)Couldn't you just not be a part of that particular roleplay/story/plot? Crazy roleplay stuff happened on the 'bloids all the time, where you'd have people blowing up skyscrapers and fighting aliens and getting married... all at the same time on the same thread, with some people even participating in most or all of those roleplays at the same time. but they weren't connected at all, and if you weren't interested, you weren't obligated/forced to participate or acknowledge the events as happening. So sure there'd be a plot going on with a death robot raining down despair on everyone, but you'd still be able to say "Meh, I don't wanna do that" and stroll in and start your own plot about a Tea Party if you wanted. Isn't the Taco still like that? (Geniunely curious as I haven't really participated since shortly after the Taco was granted its own board, and it was mostly like that when I did participate.)
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2012 15:50:33 GMT -5
*Warily* Well, in theory it's possible… if there are plenty of other people around to interact with you. In practice, it ends up being more along the lines of I would feel a little nervous about RPing if the Taco was a war zone, because I don't want to somehow be dragged into a fight that I didn't agree to participating in. :/ which in turns results in no one else wanting to come in. I for one have tried a couple of times to enter in during one of the ongoing conflicts and start something different. It was met with no one else responding. At this point, if most of what I see is a conflict when I walk in, I walk straight out. Dunno about others 100%, so won't speak for them on that matter.
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Post by Stal on Mar 25, 2012 16:05:47 GMT -5
Then there are fights that force involvement from others. If a giant death robot blows up half the square and sets skyscrapers on fire, then nobody really stands there and doesn't react. (assuming this takes place on the main Taco thread and not a specific IC roleplay thread)Couldn't you just not be a part of that particular roleplay/story/plot? Crazy roleplay stuff happened on the 'bloids all the time, where you'd have people blowing up skyscrapers and fighting aliens and getting married... all at the same time on the same thread, with some people even participating in most or all of those roleplays at the same time. but they weren't connected at all, and if you weren't interested, you weren't obligated/forced to participate or acknowledge the events as happening. So sure there'd be a plot going on with a death robot raining down despair on everyone, but you'd still be able to say "Meh, I don't wanna do that" and stroll in and start your own plot about a Tea Party if you wanted. Isn't the Taco still like that? (Geniunely curious as I haven't really participated since shortly after the Taco was granted its own board, and it was mostly like that when I did participate.) I think the IC universe of Taco is a lot more cause-and-effect oriented. By nature of what it is, they have a harder time ignoring it. Like a step between trying to ignore something like that in Guild RPs and the slapstick, tongue-in-cheek bloidal like RPing. First thing I want to make a comment on here, I think that the extended plots and duels should probably be moved to their own threads. That's just common courtesy. And that rule does exist on the bloids, and really, while there isn't a rule thread made yet, that guideline should still be sticking here. Even if it might be an annoyance, it really should be taking place. But there should be some wisdom used in it. Things sometimes start out hammy and grow out of hand--being aware enough of that to move it (even if it's only a few pages from finishing), or asking someone to move, should not be an issue. Just respect each other and use wisdom on it. ANYWAY! I have a proposal. Maybe something that works for everyone. Taco has it's own mainboard folder. You guys are growing a lot, etc. And that's pretty cool. And I'm going to cite, again, bloidal history as example (you work with what you know). Make use of that "New Topic" button. There is nothing stopping a second thread, one very similar to Taco as is, but with a chaotic PVP allowance there. And then main topic thread stays neutral peace-grounds. This is a forum on the Internet. No one is bound physically to presence only in one area. You can be having fun peacetime chatting with your characters in Main Taco and be kicking back a drink and punching someone because he looked at you wrong in the Taco Tavern. This was done to some really great success during the Ninja Pirate wars. "Neutral" threads were set up for participants who wanted the fun of being in the events, but without having to RP the combat. There's no reason this can't be attempted here. And I'm not talking about having just an arena or some thread you move to when it comes time for a fight. I mean make it an active thread where participants of it know what to expect--and have the choice to be a part of it or not.
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Post by Killix on Mar 25, 2012 16:20:13 GMT -5
*Warily* Well, in theory it's possible… if there are plenty of other people around to interact with you. I for one have tried a couple of times to enter in during one of the ongoing conflicts and start something different. It was met with no one else responding. I understand. That also happened on the 'bloids back when they were active. Success of starting a new topic somewhat depended on who was online/participating at the time. I think what makes the Taco different in that regard is that it has a very small pool of participants and regulars in comparison. If this small pool isn't interested in what new stories/interactions you're trying to start, it's just not going to stick. The 'bloids had many many many different regulars, casual chatters and social groups visiting at many different times of the day. The bloids weren't skewed towards any popular topic or set of preferences. If you walked in and saw a discussion you weren't into, you could just come back later and try again with different people.
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Post by Dan on Mar 25, 2012 16:21:46 GMT -5
Things sometimes start out hammy and grow out of hand--being aware enough of that to move it (even if it's only a few pages from finishing).. I'll piggyback on this with an idea that just occurred to me. Something that can be helpful for this that isn't really taken advantage of on the forum is the ability to split threads. So if you guys realize mid-fight that it should be its own thread and want all of the related posts to go with it to the new thread, drop us mods a PM with the request, what you want the thread to be named, etc. We can pick and choose individual posts you want and send them wherever, so this could be a solution to splitting things off but wanting the arc to remain intact.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2012 16:23:19 GMT -5
Things sometimes start out hammy and grow out of hand--being aware enough of that to move it (even if it's only a few pages from finishing).. I'll piggyback on this with an idea that just occurred to me. Something that can be helpful for this that isn't really taken advantage of on the forum is the ability to split threads. So if you guys realize mid-fight that it should be its own thread and want all of the related posts to go with it to the new thread, drop us mods a PM with the request, what you want the thread to be named, etc. We can pick and choose individual posts you want and send them wherever, so this could be a solution to splitting things off but wanting the arc to remain intact. Now that… I didn't know you guys could /do/ that. :U That's pretty awesome. I could see that coming in handy later on. :3
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Post by Dan on Mar 25, 2012 16:26:30 GMT -5
I'll piggyback on this with an idea that just occurred to me. Something that can be helpful for this that isn't really taken advantage of on the forum is the ability to split threads. So if you guys realize mid-fight that it should be its own thread and want all of the related posts to go with it to the new thread, drop us mods a PM with the request, what you want the thread to be named, etc. We can pick and choose individual posts you want and send them wherever, so this could be a solution to splitting things off but wanting the arc to remain intact. Now thatÂ… I didn't know you guys could /do/ that. :U That's pretty awesome. I could see that coming in handy later on. :3 Yeah, pretty sure most people are unaware. XD It's so awesome, I just want to use it more! *shot*
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Post by Andrea on Mar 25, 2012 16:30:01 GMT -5
And I'm not talking about having just an arena or some thread you move to when it comes time for a fight. I mean make it an active thread where participants of it know what to expect--and have the choice to be a part of it or not. I think I could be in favor of this... The thing is that sometimes you bring in two characters to what would be the nonviolent Taco to just chat and then they start duking it out because one of them insulted the other's mother or something. By which I mean, if a fight is about to start in the regular Taco, the participants should have to move it then, right...?
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Post by Stal on Mar 25, 2012 16:31:17 GMT -5
And I'm not talking about having just an arena or some thread you move to when it comes time for a fight. I mean make it an active thread where participants of it know what to expect--and have the choice to be a part of it or not. I think I could be in favor of this... The thing is that sometimes you bring in two characters to what would be the nonviolent Taco to just chat and then they start duking it out because one of them insulted the other's mother or something. By which I mean, if a fight is about to start in the regular Taco, the participants should have to move it then, right...? As a general principal, from main taco, they really should set up a duel thread for that, yeah. Though like said, the hammy stuff could be usually ignored. So wisdom, again
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Post by Colleen on Mar 25, 2012 23:16:08 GMT -5
I know I haven't been here in forever (I really need to get active again, though; I rather miss it), so if you want to ignore me fine, but I feel like putting in my own two cents based on everything I've read here and gathered from private conversations with various more active Tacoers. Fair warning, there are many parts of many posts that I would like to cite, but I can't be bothered right now.
First of all, in response to a comment from Omni back on page 1, I think it's going to be very difficult, if not impossible, to find a solution upon which everyone will agree. Such is the nature of human beings. We simply do not agree on everything, and the larger the group the less likelihood of reaching a unanimous decision. This is why most democracies run on a "majority rules" concept rather than trying to reach unanimous decisions, because if all decisions had to be unanimous almost nothing would ever get done. That being said, it seems to me like having two major Taco threads within the Taco Cart area, one being for peaceful chat and the other being a "PVP" area would be the situation most likely to be agreeable to all, or at least a vast majority.
Also, I agree wholeheartedly with the people who have said that we need less rules, not more. After all, this is what Neopets does, and isn't that where this entire forum came from? They have long since realized that it is impossible to come up with a single set of rules that will cover every single foreseeable situation that the users could possibly come up with. Therefore, they make the rules as broad as possible and encourage users to use common sense in determining whether or not an activity violates those rules, clarifying when necessary. I think the same system should apply here. There should be a brief set of broad rules that will govern general behavior, with individual issues being addressed as they arise.
The biggest one of these rules would be to use common courtesy when it comes to roleplays within the Taco thread(s). If you are making people uncomfortable, then it is only polite to move elsewhere. Imagine, if you will, that you and a group of friends are enjoying a nice, quiet picnic in the park, and suddenly two boys show up and decide to have a paintball war in the middle of the picnic area. Certainly you would be within your right to ask them to take the fight elsewhere. Similarly, if your RP topic of the day is making other users uncomfortable and they politely ask you to please take it elsewhere, you should comply, especially if you have any reason to believe that it may continue for any length of time. I don't want to go against what I said above about broad rules and try to enforce a strict page/post limit, so it will be up to the discretion of the Tacoers on at the moment when they've had enough and the topic should be moved.
Also, to agree with what Icon and some others have said, the Taco is a place for mostly IC discussion. Therefore while a certain amount of OC chat may be tolerated, especially if it's a slow day, again I propose that common sense and common courtesy should be used to decide when enough is enough and any further discussion should be taken to PM or a different thread/board.
So to summarize, common courtesy should be the biggest rule of the Taco, and the fact that people can make new topics or split an existing topic into a new one should be utilized to keep disagreements to a minimum. Of course I say this with the knowledge that probably not everyone will agree with this, and sometimes the person being asked to move will not agree that it is necessary. In this case, it should be "majority rules" if a unanimous decision cannot be reached within a reasonable amount of time. If everyone can at least agree to retain a certain amount of courtesy and respect toward everyone else, then many of these disagreements can be avoided.
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Post by Stal on Mar 26, 2012 8:57:33 GMT -5
I was going to stay quiet for a bit, let you guys mull things over and such. But I think a response to Colleen is needed and a very clear clarification made on what is taking place here.
The purpose of this thread and discussion is not for Tacoers coming up with "Rules of the Taco" in a way that is going to be posted somewhere for all to see and obey. As noted, that will that not lead to a lasting solution due to people having different opinions. But it's more than that.
Taco is a community board and folder that belongs to the forum as a whole. I know there is a fierce pride and loyalty among the current Tacoers for what has been accomplished. But just as no 'bloider (or group of 'bloiders) owns the tabloids, no Tacoer (or group of Tacoers) owns Taco.
The responsibility of coming up with rules (rules being something enforceable, something all members are expected to abide, etc) is in the hands of the staff. Democratizing the rules is really a non-starter. And those rules will tend to be very basic and general. With the Taco being an overall forum community, this goes beyond "what works for the current group" and becomes "what works for that group and keeps the place welcoming for others and sticking around in the future when they're all gone anyway?"
The staff will work with the Tacoers (like they work with all of the main groups) to figure out what is best or not best. But one thing that will never be legislated by rules is philosophies and play styles. Everyone has their own way of doing that, and no one has the right to tell others how they should feel about it or make rules regarding that way of doing things.
Now that is not to say you can't come up with a framework of how things will typically go, what is more or less expected, thread purposes, etc. But those guidelines and frameworks are things that can change over time and are not enforceable rules. What they are is ways that you guys find to interact with each other in ways that benefit you. But they are not elevated to the same level as rules.
Really, the point of this thread isn't to figure out the rules or a list of dos and don'ts. I think if you spend time looking at that, you're going to go nowhere.
The point of this thread is to acknowledge there are problems. And for the actual underlying problems be discussed and something worked out for those. And those are typically going to be things where people realize what ends up pushing other people's buttons, and working to make sure that they treat others well.
What is it that is preventing people from having fun? What is it preventing people from getting along? What is it that is being divisive among you all? What will work to stop these from being issues in the future?
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Post by Omni on Mar 26, 2012 12:31:47 GMT -5
I'll say that you feel attacked just as much as we do. I'm not entirely sure. I've been piled on by a lot of people. ... Why? I'll include this quote: Again, I probably should have been asleep when I wrote that, so maybe I should clarify with some context. XD There have been occasions when someone has tried to break up a fight by attacking someone that was in that fight (generally the one that they think started the fight. I figure if they're going to get into a fight anyway (even if just to break up a fight), they might want to try a different approach: One that's less provocative and that has more of a chance on playing on a character's sense of good (assuming they have one). If you don't want to get into it, that's one thing. But if you're going to get into it anyway (even if reluctantly), you may want to try something with a different effect. I'd also request that you be sure to make the positioning clear. There have been problems with misunderstandings on positioning. I guess my main issue is all this passive-aggressiveness going on. People complaining about things and then not doing anything about it. Again, this is why I've been bringing things up. I really don't want the whole... issues to continue, especially since they effect me as well. It can be hard, but if issues persist, they really should be addressed. First of all, in response to a comment from Omni back on page 1, I think it's going to be very difficult, if not impossible, to find a solution upon which everyone will agree. Such is the nature of human beings. We simply do not agree on everything, and the larger the group the less likelihood of reaching a unanimous decision. This is why most democracies run on a "majority rules" concept rather than trying to reach unanimous decisions, because if all decisions had to be unanimous almost nothing would ever get done. Yeah, I know. The Founding Fathers (IIRC) would have problems with trying to get things established and 'Rouge Island' (as they started calling it) - the smallest state - would say 'no' and halt everything. Still the problem with going only by 'majority rules' is that the majority is not always right. It's especially not the best idea when done in a rush and not taking into account other factors. SOPA almost won by a 'majority rule' vote, by those that are meant to make the 'rules.' (Thankfully, just almost.) Also, if you're thinking of the American government, it's not supposed to be a democracy. It's meant to be a Republic. If you've ever said the Pledge of Allegiance, you've pledged allegiance to the Republic. (Look over it if you don't believe me.) What is it that is preventing people from having fun? What is it preventing people from getting along? What is it that is being divisive among you all? What will work to stop these from being issues in the future? After looking at things you (and maybe other mods have said), I think maybe the problem is that people have tried to enforce ruled when it's not their place to do so, and particularly without taking the time to debug those rules. (I feel like I should follow on this somehow, but I'm not sure how. ) Also, I really would ask that people NOT attack others just for bringing up a more-serious fight. If it ends up being more than a couple pages long or so (at least assuming the Taco is relatively slow - spread across three pages when there are tons of other posts in-between wouldn't make sense XD), maybe. (At least with ones that aren't purely of words.) But just for bringing one up? It really could turn out to be short. Or maybe they're doing it in the open to make sure others are aware of it as a sort of invite to a larger RP. Just please, at least don't stress out over every little serious fight that barely comes up. Also, so the mods know, there is an arena thread for fights, though at least some of us feel that it's for more-formal challenges (i.e. 'I challenge you to a _____!'-type stuff), not just for fights that pop up. Especially so when other story bits are involved with those fights.
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