Religious Apologetics / What Do You Believe?

[laurensk90]

stalos said:

Jacob, I don't know if you've picked up on it or not, but your arguments against religious folk are bit...hypocritical?

Take it in this light: Religion includes in itself a philosophy about life. These philosophies are usually about overcoming one's baser instincts and striving to become a better human being, doing good, etc. That philosophy also provides the guidelines by which to accomplish it.

People are free to choose to follow or not to follow those guidelines. There are consequences for following and not following. Some good, some not so good. The consequences are just the results of the actions.

Very few religious people I know do what they do out of fear of punishment (certainly not those in my religion, for instance, as we do not believe in an ever-burning hell that sinners are sent to upon death, but also none of the people I know who DO believe in hell, either). They do what they do, because they find it to be what is right. It's not a matter of "I would like to do this, but The Big Man says it's wrong, so I better not do it because He'll get me.... Eep." It's more like "Part of me wants to do that, but I know it's not right to do, so I'm not going to."

Now we get to the subjective points: right and wrong.

You would obviously feel that certain points in the philosophies of religion are wrong. That's fine, because the same people would view your own philosophy as wrong, too. Each side can justify their own all they want, but it always comes down to the fact that a person will make their choice and life by a set of guidelines that they find to be right, even if others don't agree with them. And that's usually how people (barring the extremists with their children) come to a certain religion: they find in it an explanation of life, and a set of guidelines of life that they not only agree with, but see as correct. Then they strive to follow those guidelines and attain the ends I mentioned before.

I like what someone mentioned on the last thread: it's no different than a person deciding that eating meat is terrible and they'll no longer eat it, and become a vegetarian (or even a vegan). Or someone viewing all life as precious to the point of going out of her way to not harm an ant. I could go on with the philosophies that people choose that impose certain boundaries on their actions, but they've consciously made the choice to follow those guidelines because they see it as right and correct.

Religion simply gives a different outlook on life and the universe than other points of view do. It contains a philosophy of what and how to live that people are free to either accept or reject (which all philosophies of life contain). Yeah, sure, a religious philosophy includes a deity in the mix, but that deity doesn't make people cower, nor do most view their deity as a strict, terrible, oppressive being.

But alas, no one can ever make you see that the religious aren't as bad as you've come to believe they are. Even when confronted with many of those that do not fit your assumptions, you continue to act as if ALL of them do. As Kit said, you really do need to have a more open mind about religious people and come to realize that your assumptions about them are just plain wrong.

In that light, religion is not very much different from other paths of life. It's a guideline to what is right and wrong, which some people need, and some don't. In my view, the religious people need those guidelines and those who do not believe in a god don't. The only significant difference, then, is God.

Then let me ask you all a question: What role do you think God has in the world? Everyone's assumed he's the creator of all, but how about everyday life? Does he rarely intervene, or is he in control of everything? Does one have to pray, ask for divine intervention or does he come to all who need it?

[Komori]

jacob said:

I just feel people cannot live life to the fullest when they are constantly cowering in fear, being dictated by an invisible force which knows what you are thinking.

I am not a mindless lemming, thank you. I don't follow a set of rules because I'm afraid of punishment from this invisible and powerful deity, I follow because I am grateful. He's given me wonderful gifts, this life I live, the food I eat, the promise of a salvation after life has ended, and because I am showered with this overwhelming love that I do what I can to live a life that would honor the things I've been given.

I have my own free will. I can lie or steal or cheat if I'd like, and I don't fear Hell. I can do whatever the heck I want, but I choose to follow the Bible because it seems that following it makes my life happier. I am comforted when I'm upset, I'm filled with joy when things despair. I am happier around other people and tend to make them happy as well. I am not following God out of fear, I'm following Him out of joy.
It's an important point I think you haven't gotten yet.

laurensk90 said:

Then let me ask you all a question: What role do you think God has in the world? Everyone's assumed he's the creator of all, but how about everyday life? Does he rarely intervene, or is he in control of everything? Does one have to pray, ask for divine intervention or does he come to all who need it?

Hehe. This is always such the deep philosophical question. What role does He have in our lives? I believe He's in control of everything. I mean, if He's created all of existence, what thing can be out of His control? I'm not saying that we aren't choosing what we're choosing. I'm just saying whether we choose left or right, up or down, He has a response planned for each scenario. He helps those who ask for it, and He helps those who don't. After all, if good things only happened to those who prayed, it'd be pretty obvious He was there. And I think He chooses not to reveal in a big booming voice to all the world, "Hey, I'm here!" because He wants us to have faith, to trust in Him though we don't see Him directly.

[Dragon]

Sorry, this just came to my mind and I don't mean to be offensive but...

God reminds me of Santa Claus. Seeing isn't believing.

(And no I'm not Christian.)

[laurensk90]

ghostkomori said:

laurensk90 said:

Then let me ask you all a question: What role do you think God has in the world? Everyone's assumed he's the creator of all, but how about everyday life? Does he rarely intervene, or is he in control of everything? Does one have to pray, ask for divine intervention or does he come to all who need it?

Hehe. This is always such the deep philosophical question. What role does He have in our lives? I believe He's in control of everything. I mean, if He's created all of existence, what thing can be out of His control? I'm not saying that we aren't choosing what we're choosing. I'm just saying whether we choose left or right, up or down, He has a response planned for each scenario. He helps those who ask for it, and He helps those who don't. After all, if good things only happened to those who prayed, it'd be pretty obvious He was there. And I think He chooses not to reveal in a big booming voice to all the world, "Hey, I'm here!" because He wants us to have faith, to trust in Him though we don't see Him directly.

That would mean that everything that happens in the world, happens just because God had planned it so, is what I understand from you. Does that include disasters; earthquakes, tsunamis, volcanic eruptions that kill hundreds of people? Does that include wars, be it religious or other? Does that include the deteriorating of third-world countries, where the few rich keep getting richer and the poor people die of hunger?

[(_+*Lou*+_)]

God isn't reponsible for the evil in the world, no. Every evil (natural disasters aren't "evil", per se) can be traced to human influence, and God doesn't stop us from having free will. People who turn their backs on doing the right thing are what causes evil. I do feel that God has a plan for the world, but sometimes it seems that humans are doing their best to mess it up. Natural disasters are part of God's earth. I have no idea why God caused the Earth to be this way, or for suffering to occur, but that's one of the things that I feel we'll learn in time, in heaven or what not. Maybe I just don't understand.
I sort of find the "suffering exists, so God can't" argument to be really frustrating, because part of religion is, yes, there are going to be things that seem unexplainable. Terribly things do happen to innocent people, and I am sure God weeps.
I suppose that some would say that my answer is a complete cop-out. My answer to that? It's the best that I've got, and it's the best any human is really going to have, in my opinion. Personally, I feel that the argument that God doesn't exist becuase there happens to be suffering is perhaps only suited to this answer- There are good things on Earth, too- don't those mean that there is a God?
Someday I'm sure that I'll understand all this. For now, I've just got to have faith.

[Jacob]

Religion and philosophy are intertwining at times, but to me it's more of a collection of ideas than ONE TRUE CODE. Some ideas work, some don't, and you rectify and update codes that no longer fit for society. Living changes. Religion doesn't. Sure, there have been many different branches of Christianity that change the rules, justifying the actions by twisting the original code, while saying it IS the original code.

If it was JUST about following a moral code (law), which could be changed to what is fair to society at the time, it would be one thing, but when the gods get thrown in, nothing can be done, because we're supposed to do what THEY say, rather than what makes sense for us. When it's down to right or wrong, is it wrong because you know what it can do to society, or only wrong because the gods say so?

On worshiping: People have free will and choice, this I know, but that they choose to follow and worship a god shows lack of thinking for yourself, because you are choosing someone to think for you (what is right or wrong by a bible). Also, that you are giving worship/energy to something which won't be there for you when you are really needing it is just wasteful to me. The gods do what they please, regardless of what we pray for and how hard, so why do it when it's at their whim? That energy could be used to do something productive to make matters better for yourself, rather than let it be at the whim of some god.

We all have a right to believe what we want, regardless of whatever facts or logic may lay around...but should someone believe and practice something that is otherwise destructive?

kitclairvoyance said:

I'd almost say that you're the one cowering in fear, a fear of religion in itself that it will bind you down. Have you ever thought that you're the one being dictated by an invisible force? One from the refusal to look at things from another perspective. Open your mind a little, and don't live by assumption.

Didn't expect to hear that. Will admit I've been closed off by many things in my life, but to me it's a safe bet to "fear" religion, or at least the god aspect of it. No one is controlling my life, and no one is going to help me no matter how much I cry. Only I can help myself, by working and being part of this world while I still can. Only by taking control of my fate can I truly live. Same with everyone else.

ilovetoread247 said:

Personally, I feel that the argument that God doesn't exist becuase there happens to be suffering is perhaps only suited to this answer- There are good things on Earth, too- don't those mean that there is a God?

No, it doesn't. It means there are good people, that we are capable of good and great kindness. Evil too, yes, but it's all us. We are capable of a great many good and terrible things. It's all up to us what we do with our destinies in society.

P.S. It was mentioned, but I thought it best as a footnote: Vegetarians and people who follow gods are very different. Choosing what you eat (regardless of reason) versus believing there is a great being somewhere watching things and rewarding certain people who follow their code...big difference.

[Shadaras]

jacob said:

On worshiping: People have free will and choice, this I know, but that they choose to follow and worship a god shows lack of thinking for yourself, because you are choosing someone to think for you (what is right or wrong by a bible). Also, that you are giving worship/energy to something which won't be there for you when you are really needing it is just wasteful to me. The gods do what they please, regardless of what we pray for and how hard, so why do it when it's at their whim? That energy could be used to do something productive to make matters better for yourself, rather than let it be at the whim of some god.

We all have a right to believe what we want, regardless of whatever facts or logic may lay around...but should someone believe and practice something that is otherwise destructive?

The Bible might not be something you or I would choose to believe in. It might not be the way we choose to live our lives. But if I ever read it, which I someday will, I think that I'd find many things in it that I would agree with, many things that I follow in my life without knowing that a book has led other people onto the same path.

And as for prayer, prayer is hoping. Praying is just asking someone that you know has power to help. Prayer may not even work. But belief and the ability to say that you tried to help are powerful. I've prayed. I don't follow any religion, but I've prayed. Not often, true. I rarely have a reason to, after all. But when I'm really worried about a friend that I know does follow a religion, I have prayed for them. I never expect it to work, but I hope, and that hope, as much as anything else, is why it can work. If enough people believe in something, then why shouldn't it work, after all?

Explain how something like that, something that is derived from hoping and wishing, is destructive, please. I can't see it being that way.

jacob said:

Didn't expect to hear that. :o Will admit I've been closed off by many things in my life, but to me it's a safe bet to "fear" religion, or at least the god aspect of it. No one is controlling my life, and no one is going to help me no matter how much I cry. Only I can help myself, by working and being part of this world while I still can. Only by taking control of my fate can I truly live. Same with everyone else.

No one else may be controlling your life, but how do you know people wouldn't help you if you cried? You are always able to help yourself, yes, but your friends would help as well, I'm sure. If they didn't, how could you call them friends?

All things have somebody else control their life at some point. As a child, your parents would. As you get older, there would be things that you chose to do that would dictate your schedule. And then, as an adult, you would have a job, with a boss than can control you again. You can, of course, say 'no' to anything. But does not saying anything really count as control? Because religion is no more controlling than any of that. It's a way to look at the world. It may have other things that go along with it, such as going to church for Christians or other such things, but those don't control you any more than the other things I listed.

You may be in control of your fate, if such a thing can truly be controlled, but everyone else is also in control of theirs, whether they follow a religion or not.

[Crystal]

I'm not going to get into the debate above, but I'd like to respond to Sam's post.

sam said:

Religion has always been a tough thing for me to figure out.

Technically I'm Jewish, and I'm happy to be a Jew. We have a pretty close-knit temple, and one of my best friends goes there. Its one of those connection thingies we share, I guess.

I'm not very religious, though. In fact, lately (and please, please, please DON'T GET MAD AT ME FOR SAYING THIS! I don't want to offend anyone), I think that all religion's been causing is fighting. Don't get me wrong, I respect people's religions. It's a good thing to have another place for security and prayer like a church or a temple. But I've noticed that there are lots of things in our world's history and current events that are caused by religion. I mean, the Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, and World War II were all because of religion. And there were so many people killed, too! Not to mention other wars and horrible events that happened.

And also, there's the fact that religion's just another category that separates us. Some parents disallow or don't prefer their children to marry someone of a different religion, and some religions don't like certain things that I think are just fine!

I know this may spark debate, and I just want to let you know that this is the result of me thinking about this in my bed at night for hours on end.

Hmm, well, aside from the things Nimras has mentioned, I'd like to also bring up the good things that have come about as a result of religion. Firstly, religious people are generally more likely to give to charity, volunteer, and just do general acts of kindness. For example, I believe I've given quite a bit to various shelters and education funds and volunteered at elderly homes through my church, and also through my highschool. So have most really religious people I know, be they Muslim or Christian or Buddhist.

Here's the link to the survey I'm talking about, so I'm not just pulling it out of thin air:
www-news.uchicago.edu/releases/03/030725.altruism.shtml
thetyee.ca/News/2004/12/22/Charity1/

What I'm trying to get at is that while a lot of people connect bad things to religion, in reality it's quite the opposite - how long ago were the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition, even disregarding Nimmy's assertions on the matter? Yes, religion can lead to close-mindedness, but it seems unfair to say that it ONLY leads to close-mindedness, and not also to good deeds, kindness, and charity. After all, Jesus said "Love thy neighbour", and Hinduism says "This is the sum of duty: do not do to others what would cause pain if done to you," and Sikhism says "Be charitable to all beings."

Here's THAT link. xD
www.religioustolerance.org/reciproc.htm

Religion in general is a very good thing, just that people tend to focus on the bad side of it. Most priests are very gentle, kindly men, and I feel sad whenever I hear the joke about them sodomizing little boys. I suppose it's just better, more sensational news, really, but just like no one ever mentions how I made my upset friend happier today, no one mentions how a priest in another church sits down and talks a man out of committing suicide, or gives a homeless man food.

My father is a pastor; I have watched him at his work, I have listened as he takes a call late at night from a crying woman asking for advice. I believe I can say what I'm saying here with conviction.

Over half the contributions to charity every year come from religious organizations of some sort. (Please see the earlier links I posted.) My church at home has one week a year where all the members contribute money, volunteer, and we set up a tent in a field and give tins of food to poor people. And they're not always exactly nice people, either; some will demand more, or yell at us, or try to cut lines and take two packages. Not to say that this doesn't happen outside of religious places, or that non religious people can't be giving, too, but it's a good deal rarer.

And now that I've gone into that whole schpiel... may I ask if it would still be better that religion did not exist? xD Isn't the problem with everyone 'being themselves' and 'working for themselves' that no one really seems to care about other people anymore?

[(_+*Lou*+_)]

I really don't understand your argument, Jacob. You seem to be saying that unless we reject everything others teach us, we aren't thinking for ourselves, and that dosen't make sense to me. Yes, I do feel that God helps me, and I do feel that He has some measure of control over my life. Why does this have to mean that I have no free will?

And also, I'm going to completely paraphrase Billy Graham's column in my city's paper here, but I do also wonder how much of your animosity to religion is a desire to control your own life and to resist the thought that a higher power could possibly influence you.

And about my "good people" quote- that was mainly to illustrate how illogical the "bad things" argument is, rather than to be an argument unto itself.

[laurensk90]

ilovetoread247 said:

God isn't reponsible for the evil in the world, no. Every evil (natural disasters aren't "evil", per se) can be traced to human influence, and God doesn't stop us from having free will. People who turn their backs on doing the right thing are what causes evil. I do feel that God has a plan for the world, but sometimes it seems that humans are doing their best to mess it up. Natural disasters are part of God's earth. I have no idea why God caused the Earth to be this way, or for suffering to occur, but that's one of the things that I feel we'll learn in time, in heaven or what not. Maybe I just don't understand.
I sort of find the "suffering exists, so God can't" argument to be really frustrating, because part of religion is, yes, there are going to be things that seem unexplainable. Terribly things do happen to innocent people, and I am sure God weeps.
I suppose that some would say that my answer is a complete cop-out. My answer to that? It's the best that I've got, and it's the best any human is really going to have, in my opinion. Personally, I feel that the argument that God doesn't exist becuase there happens to be suffering is perhaps only suited to this answer- There are good things on Earth, too- don't those mean that there is a God?
Someday I'm sure that I'll understand all this. For now, I've just got to have faith.

I have the impression that you're not very convinced of your own arguments. Actually, I would have expected the argument that 'God is testing our faith'.

You mention that the argument of 'suffering exists, so God can't' frustrating. That, on itself, is indeed a bit too broad. Sure, suffering could exist along with God, I guess. But I ask you, why so much? We see the news every day, about countries in hunger, war and poverty, all the other suffering I mentioned before. There's always something horrible happening somewhere, and I'm convinced that if there really was a god, the suffering would be less.

I myself, too, believe that evil comes from within humankind. I look from the evolutionary perspective, and I think that some of the basic instincts we evolved with are now the cause of most of the problems in the world.

You said God weeps. That raises another question: How human does God get? Does he share our emotions, our feelings? I think that, the more human God gets, the less credible he becomes.

I'm not implying anything, but I found it ironic that the phrase 'We aren't blind sheep' was repeated, when there is a prayer that says 'the Lord is my shepherd'.

And now that I've gone into that whole schpiel... may I ask if it would still be better that religion did not exist? xD Isn't the problem with everyone 'being themselves' that no one really seems to care about other people anymore?

I'd like to direct you to my second post on this page.

[(_+*Lou*+_)]

Huh? I never said anything about blind sheep... Just wanted to point that out. And I'm highly convinced of my arguments. I'm just also convinced that, while there is an answer, we aren't going to find it.
I do feel that the idea of God testing our faith through those sorts of things to be illogical. How is killing somebody testing their faith? Why must people die for just one person? That's why I didn't use that argument, though I considered it.
I think that God does become sad for the world- we've become a pretty evil place and I doubt that's how He wanted it to be. I don't feel that He really has overly human emotions the way you mean, though- He understands everything, our motivations and such, and has been human Himself (Jesus), but I doubt that He really cries or anything.

[Nimras]

I wasn't going to post on this thread again, but... yeah. I need to reply to some things. *grin*

sam said:

I mean, World War II being used as an example, Hitler was insane in his own right, because of some strange philosophies he got into (yes, strange, I know). He basically wanted everyone to be "pure" because of a prophecy, or something like that (does this sound Catholic to you, Nim? xD). Either way, because of this, he felt he needed to erase people who weren't part of this prophecy. Am I correct?

Sorry... Incorrect. There have been some movies based on that plot line, but I've never read anything in either my textbooks or my copies of the original documents that go on about Hitler filling some prophecy. The mythos that Hitler built up was rather strange and warped. Even the word he chose "aryian" doesn't make sense -- it means "persian" (Iran literally translates to "land of the aryians").

Germany had just been devastated, and her citizens were living in poverty. Hitler simply used a very old, and very persuasive argument. "The strange people that aren't like us but who live here did it -- cast them out."

If you can find them (they can be a bit hard to find) I'd suggest you pick up a copy of "Hitler and Nazism" by Enzo Collotti and "Inside Hitler's Germany: A Documentary History of Live in the Third Reich" edited by Benjamin Sax and Dieter Kuntz.

jacob said:

Hmmm...yes, this seems like a good place to start religious debate...I think.

Recently gave my top 3 priorities in what I would like a partner, and the first, being a free thinker, got some eyebrows raised because I referred it to being without belief in a god (among other things, but for the sake of this discussion...*shrugs*). Was told that someone can believe in a god and still be a free thinker, because they chose that path. I basically said you aren't thinking freely because you think what a god tells you to think, and that it's a shame they would chose that.

I just feel people cannot live life to the fullest when they are constantly cowering in fear, being dictated by an invisible force which knows what you are thinking. I just find it impossible to completely fall for someone who is like that. Not only would I know they aren't thinking for themselves, they are always thinking I'm going to be punished forever (or a period of time) by not thinking like them. Despite of who I am or what I've done.

I do know I can never find someone who thinks just like me, and I know that's not the point of dating. ould be a boring relationship anyway, because I would never be challenged or grow, and that's the whole point of living. Worship is just viewed as a negative with me, and I find it hard to be intimate with someone who does it.

On another note, I don't put myself under any titles, be it atheist, agnostic, democrat, republican or even liberal. I don't feel they represent me or how I think in any way, and instead to say "I'm myself". Proper to think or say something like that?

It strikes me as odd that you say you want to be challenged to grow, but don't seem to be trying to understand the view point of those who think differently than you.

I'm a religious person, who is a history major, who strives to understand not only what a religion says, but what that meant in the context of the time where it was said. Not only my religion, but those of my friends as well. My religion doesn't dictate what I think, or what I do -- I choose to think that way, and act that way. I have never, ever, had a pastor, rabbi or priest tell me "You must think like this" or "You must behave like this or you will suffer horrible consequences."

I have, however, had the media tell me that a lot. Both what I should do and think, and supposedly what leaders in my religion would tell me.

My approach for religions is much like my approach for whatever else I research -- ignore the news and find an original source. Before you judge people for being religious, perhaps some research like reading said religion's texts. (IE Bible for Christians, Koran for Muslims, ect.)

[Deleted]

nimras23 said:

I wasn't going to post on this thread again, but... yeah. I need to reply to some things. *grin*

sam said:

I mean, World War II being used as an example, Hitler was insane in his own right, because of some strange philosophies he got into (yes, strange, I know). He basically wanted everyone to be "pure" because of a prophecy, or something like that (does this sound Catholic to you, Nim? xD). Either way, because of this, he felt he needed to erase people who weren't part of this prophecy. Am I correct?

Sorry... Incorrect. There have been some movies based on that plot line, but I've never read anything in either my textbooks or my copies of the original documents that go on about Hitler filling some prophecy. The mythos that Hitler built up was rather strange and warped. Even the word he chose "aryian" doesn't make sense -- it means "persian" (Iran literally translates to "land of the aryians").

Germany had just been devastated, and her citizens were living in poverty. Hitler simply used a very old, and very persuasive argument. "The strange people that aren't like us but who live here did it -- cast them out."

If you can find them (they can be a bit hard to find) I'd suggest you pick up a copy of "Hitler and Nazism" by Enzo Collotti and "Inside Hitler's Germany: A Documentary History of Live in the Third Reich" edited by Benjamin Sax and Dieter Kuntz.

I knew about that Aryan thing! Whoot!

Okay, ignoring what I said about that prophecy thing (it was on the History channel, and I believed them!), that's exactly the point I'm trying to make. Religion separates people. I think that religion is important to some people, and I know that it has gotten people through tough times, but the truth is, it's just another divider. Hitler was able to put the blame on the Jews because they were Jews. Simply because Jewish is not the same as Christian, it means that Jewish people are unequal to Christian people (according to Hitler).

And what's happening in Sudan? What's happening in Rwanda? You think that's because people like killing each other?

It's because of religion.

I am in no way saying religion is a bad thing. I'm saying the fact that it splits people into categories is a bad thing. And historically, though it may not have been the cause of certain major events, it has been a contributing factor in them.

[Stal]

I'd like to point out that their's a distinction between being Jewish in the religious sense and Jewish in the genealogy and ethnic sense.

The Jews that Hitler killed were the ethnic Jews. It really didn't matter if they were religious or not.

You know what else, other than religion splits people? Nationality--a rabid sense of nationalism is what helped start World War I. Economics--Cold war, anyone? Politics--just turn on the TV today, watch our own nation, or listen to what happened in Kenya. Race/Ethinicty--Darfur, slavery, Turks and Armenians, Jews and Palestinians.

Do these cause nothing more than division? Or does good come out of them as well?

Don't go laying this "Religion does nothing but cause strife, turmoil, and division" around without analyzing exactly what it is you're saying. And then think critically about it and whether there's actually any evidence to support what you're saying.

[Tdyans]

I've also avoided posting any more in this thread, but felt the need to respond to this:

ilovetoread247 said:

God isn't reponsible for the evil in the world, no. Every evil (natural disasters aren't "evil", per se) can be traced to human influence, and God doesn't stop us from having free will. People who turn their backs on doing the right thing are what causes evil. I do feel that God has a plan for the world, but sometimes it seems that humans are doing their best to mess it up. Natural disasters are part of God's earth. I have no idea why God caused the Earth to be this way, or for suffering to occur, but that's one of the things that I feel we'll learn in time, in heaven or what not. Maybe I just don't understand.

I agree that there are a lot of things we probably won't understand fully until this life is over, but I think you will come closer to understanding this particular matter if you read the first few chapters of Genesis carefully. God didn't "cause the Earth to be this way." You were right in the start of your post when you pointed to human beings as the reason that suffering exists. When God created the Earth, it was "very good." That would NOT have included natural disasters. But when Adam and Even sinned, they brought death and suffering not only upon themselves but upon the entire earth. Suffering exists because the Earth right now is not the perfect place that God created it to be-- and that is the result of mankind's sin-- but, as you said, God does have a plan for the world, and that plan is one day to restore it to that perfection. We just happen to be in the inbetween time (and, limited point of view that we have, we have a hard time imagining that it ever was or ever will be different, but thankfully God's not so near-sighted.)

I'm not posting this to start a debate about it-- just for the illumination of a fellow believer who seemed genuinely curious. I guess others can argue about it if they like, but I am going to try to stay out of it, as that wasn't my purpose.