Religious Apologetics / What Do You Believe?

[laurensk90]

I'm going to approach the topic of religion from an evolutionary perspective. We can all understand that gods and godly powers originate from early humans trying to understand the world around them. They could not find explanations for the fickle weather, the failed harvest, disease and death, and so attributed them to gods. When larger societies were formed, spirituality became a profession. At first, in a village, the town priest, who was believed to be connected to the gods, would tell you what was right and wrong. That he knew what was right and wrong was probably because of personal experience: don't eat those plants, but make tea with them; when you're ill, eat this particular part of an animal; don't be in the vicinity of people who have these symptoms, and such. Added to that were most of the rules you can think of with common sense: Don't kill others, don't commit adultery, don't steal etc.

Then when societies became even larger, and villages grew out to cities, religion organised itself, and there came houses of religion; churches and temples, devoted to worshipping and pleasing the early gods of nature. Around this time, the politics kicked in. The lord of the country needed an efficient way to keep the people under the law, and there was no order (as in the law and order) yet. The belief in gods provided a welcome solution: The promise of salvation when following the rules or the threat of punishment when disobeying. Or 'sinned'. And faith in one god was more efficient than many different gods.¹ So it was used to create order in the similar way of the town priest told the villagers what was right and wrong. That was the beginning of the Ten Commandments and all what comes with it.²

Now, the next quality that was assigned to God was that he always knows what's good for you and that everything happens for the 'greater good', and that as long as you believe in him, there will be hope. I think that last part is the main thing that has kept religion in existence. With science having found just about every explanation the early humans attributed to gods of nature, and science still debating the existence of the one God, and law and order firmly instated, this is the last aspect of religion that doesn't have a replacement in the modern world. When someone has lost everything they can lose, God is what keeps them going in life. When your home is destroyed and your family killed by a hurricane or a tsunami, God's promise that everything is going to be all right is what keeps you living. That faith in God is what keeps it with mankind.

1: I'm not saying politicians invented religion, just that they used the existing religion for the good of society.
2: I actually started reading the bible once, but I couldn't get through the what seemed like endless do's and don'ts of God.

There. Hit me with your arguments.

One more question regarding the biblical creation. Can someone tell me in what way Adam was different from the typical male human today?

[Dragon]

Laurens got a point and it's actually backed up by history from a non-religion way.

I must also point out that I hate religious terms such as Atheist. It's a term used by the church to put down those that don't follow a god and so I'm not that, nor Agnostic. I've tried going for my own moral thing (which I still uphold) but it's too difficult to explain when asked my religion. Reading an excerpt from my school's paper (which was all on religion this issue) I found that I fall greatly into the Wiccan or Pagan category. I never liked that term because people would relate it to the devil... which isn't it at all. It's nature and the sixth sense. Or according to some ways, those who worship a God or a Goddess (not the devil).

So basically I'm just kind of sick of all the bad things that are attributed to those who aren't one of the large religions today. It's all so confusing.

[Tam]

I've always been a little confused and intimidated by the very idea of religion, I'll admit. I'll also admit that the realization that seemingly simple religious differences can be the cause of murders, wars, and genocide (none of which would seem to follow the basic values of any religion I knew of) has taught me to avoid the subject of my own religion from a very young age. My family is generally Anglican. I say generally because my dad avoids church when he can, has never spoken openly of his own religion, and has given me no reason to believe that he has a particularly deep passion for religious beliefs of any sort. My mom is a Christian, but she believes that the Bible cannot be interpreted literally and there are many truths that can't be learned... and they can only be understood.

I've never known what I was, until a few months ago while I was doing some research. The truth is, I am very much what people would call agnostic, but it all becomes something of a mess when you try and categorize people with so many varying beliefs. For the sake of simplicity, I call myself agnostic, but I'm not really sure if my beliefs have a label.

I believe that there is some kind of a force out there that created the universe from nothing. As humans, we just don't have the ability to comprehend the idea of nothingness, and so I believe that we definitely don't have the ability to comprehend something that comes from nothing to create everything. I believe that there is no way of knowing if there is or is not a God out there, and that there is no way of knowing if there is anything before life on Earth or after death. I believe in a cosmic balance -- as a species, humans won't last forever. Eventually, we'll become extinct just like every other species; we'll be replaced and life will go on for the rest of the universe. Of course, even as I summarize all of these theories, I know that it's all just conjecture and personal belief -- there's no way of knowing if it's true.

I believe in honour, honesty, and morals. I believe in treating everyone on this planet with the same respect and kindness as I can expect from them. I believe that in a way, no matter what a person believes, it's true. If it's true to one person, then it's a solid, unshakeable truth, on some level. It has affected that person's outlook and changed their lives. Maybe it's given them comfort or satisfaction or happiness. Maybe that's all that matters.

I believe in science. I also believe in things that we can't feel or grasp or understand. I believe that if faith in either one is abused, it can have some very terrible consequences. My personal faith is to honour, respect, and protect every single person on earth, no matter what their beliefs, and I believe that if I can follow that faith for my whole life, then it doesn't matter what organized religion I've followed, because I'll have spent my life well.

[Squirrelgirl]

Hmmm... I'm doing this partly for myself, for though I'm officially Catholic, I have lots of non-Catholic beliefs. I mean, beliefs for which I got into arguments with my Confirmation people over because, admittedly, the Catholic Church doesn't support them.

I believe in one God and the Holy Trinity. Why I believe in God is a little more difficult. I can completely understand someone being an atheist because I can very easily reason out why God doesn't exist. But I do believe, and this belief mainly comes from a series of personal experiences and events where I just felt that something was watching out for me, and it wasn't human. Everything I've been through, the good and especially the bad, has seemed to fit and make sense and have some purpose. I'd have to delve deeper into the events of my life to explain this clearly, but I will not and cannot do that. It just really seems like there is some greater scheme of things in the world, and this idea keeps me living.

So, now for the unorthodox views... I don't believe in Satan or Hell, but I believe in sin. I just don't understand the concept of an all-loving and all-forgiving God condemning people to suffering for all eternity. It just seems wrong to me. But many people argue that if there is no Satan or Hell, then what's to prevent people from sinning? Well, I sort of see it as trying to gain paradise now. We have this entire life and world that we could make wonderful and fulfilling if we only followed those principles that the Bible teaches us, and so because of this, we should follow religious guidelines. Also, part of me sort of believes that a person who has so corrupted himself with evil thoughts and deeds wouldn't enjoy Heaven anyway. Such a place would be Hell for him until he acknowledged his sins and repented for them. I think of Satan more as a personification of evil than as a real being, for I don't believe a kind and loving God would allow such a thing to be created. And people can talk about the war in Heaven all they want, but, honestly, I just think that it was a story someone made up because it sounded impressive. I don't take the Creation stories literally. I mean, they were handed down orally for centuries.

In addition, I strongly disagree with large parts of the Catholic structure. I support collegiality (ruling the Catholic Church by a college of bishops) over the pope ruling by himself. It's too much for one man, and all leaders should have a great amount of perspective. I disagree with the baptism of the Catholic Church, for you should choose your faith when you know what your faith is. The Confirmation process is also a bit sketchy, because I know that my sister was practically forced into being confirmed. I hated my Confirmation classes, but I wanted to be confirmed. My sister just hated the thing period. Yet we were both confirmed, and no one asked us until the last day if we really wanted to be there. I also hate how women can only be nuns in the Catholic Church because, essentially, the only real difference between a nun and lay woman is that nuns can't have sex. I'm sure someone could argue with me in the details, but lay women can do missionary work, teach, and most of the other jobs that nuns are known for. Nuns need to be given equal status as priests. This old, male hierarchal system has to go. I also sort of believe that our religious figures should be able to marry because I think it would attract many more young men to the ministry. I understand the purpose of them being single, but I think if a wife were accepting of the fact that God will always come before her in her husband's life, then why stop the marriage? Finally, I disagree on other various political stances, but they're too many to list.

I believe that faith and science can coexist peacefully. I don't believe that believing in evolution makes you an atheist and whatnot. That's actually a Catholic view, though. Yay! I finally agree with another aspect of my religion!

I believe that all religions, if I may steal some words from Gandhi, "are different roads converging upon the same point. What does it matter that we take different roads so long as we reach the same goal?" I love certain aspects of all religions, and if I were any good at the one that I practiced, then I would probably practice several at the same time. They all have the same basic beliefs, and they're all so lovely in their own ways. They also all have flaws, but I do believe that the pros outweigh the cons.

Actually, to sum it up in the simplest way possible, I believe in peace in any way that a person can find it.

[laurensk90]

What's that Confirmation process you're talking about exactly? It sounds all brainwash-y to me.

[(_+*Lou*+_)]

Well, I'm pretty sure that Catholic Confirmation is way different from Presbyterian, but I sort of had to respond to the brainwashing comment because confirmation at my church was sort of a defining experience for me. They let us choose, (one boy decided not to get confirmed) and walked us through it and answered and discussed our questions, and we went on a ski trip.

I just found the brainwashing comment really offensive, fyi.

[Deleted]

Religion has always been a tough thing for me to figure out.

Technically I'm Jewish, and I'm happy to be a Jew. We have a pretty close-knit temple, and one of my best friends goes there. Its one of those connection thingies we share, I guess.

I'm not very religious, though. In fact, lately (and please, please, please DON'T GET MAD AT ME FOR SAYING THIS! I don't want to offend anyone), I think that all religion's been causing is fighting. Don't get me wrong, I respect people's religions. It's a good thing to have another place for security and prayer like a church or a temple. But I've noticed that there are lots of things in our world's history and current events that are caused by religion. I mean, the Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, and World War II were all because of religion. And there were so many people killed, too! Not to mention other wars and horrible events that happened.

And also, there's the fact that religion's just another category that separates us. Some parents disallow or don't prefer their children to marry someone of a different religion, and some religions don't like certain things that I think are just fine!

I know this may spark debate, and I just want to let you know that this is the result of me thinking about this in my bed at night for hours on end.

[Nimras]

ilovetoread247 said:

I just found the brainwashing comment really offensive, fyi.

I agree.

When you post here, kindly remember that you are quite likely talking to someone of the religion you're talking about. If you have a question, ask politely; don't flaunt your ignorance.

Also, a quick google search and about ten minutes of reading will help answer questions in a big way.

Confirmation means different things to different denominations. In the Protestant church, for the most part, it simply means affirming your faith after you've grown old enough to be reasonably sure that you hold to the religion because of your own beliefs and desires, and not simply because it's the religion of your parents. Hence the term "confirmation," you're confirming that you really are that religion.

Some churches are more structured than others. The one I grew up in was very relaxed, to the point of not really having confirmation at all. The one my cousin goes to has people with degrees in philosophy and theology available for you to talk to, so you can ask the tough questions and decide if you agree with them or not. It's a bit more formal, where you can stay after the service on Sundays and learn the history of the church and attend debates and lectures.

sam said:

In fact, lately (and please, please, please DON'T GET MAD AT ME FOR SAYING THIS! I don't want to offend anyone), I think that all religion's been causing is fighting. Don't get me wrong, I respect people's religions. It's a good thing to have another place for security and prayer like a church or a temple. But I've noticed that there are lots of things in our world's history and current events that are caused by religion. I mean, the Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, and World War II were all because of religion.

I'm not mad at you Sam, but as a history major, that statement is rather painful.

The Crusades weren't religious. I could give you a very long essay on the causes of the crusades, but to put it shortly, the Crusades were about land -- and keeping the peace within the countries of the people fighting. The Umayyad Caliphate needed to keep the nomadic people from raiding their cities and towns... so they pointed them towards the Byzantine Empire. The Byzantine Empire called for help to Western Europe, and the West joined in and took land taken from the Umayyad Claiphate as payment for aiding the Byzantines. The reason they get labeled as religious was simply because that was how the language of the time worked. Everything; war, peace, food, famine, cow dung, was applied to the "Glory of God" back then -- on both sides. It was a form of modesty. To claim it as your own was unbelievably rude, but if you attribute it to God, then you get credit for being brilliant and modest.

The Spanish Inquisition was about money, and racial purity (kicking out the Jews and Arabs). It also technically continued until 1834. Most of Spain had been overrun by Moors. In America 1492 is historic because that's when Columbus stumbled upon the Americas -- in Spain it's historic because that's when all of Spain was under Spanish control after several centuries of Middle Eastern occupation. The other main reason was money -- all the property of convicted people reverted to the Crown. There's a reason a lot of wealthy people were "suddenly discovered" to be of Jewish or Arabic decent.

World War II was caused by nationalism and desperation. Religion had nothing to do with it. And before anyone says it, Hitler wasn't Catholic.

If you want a root cause for all wars, history suggests that it is Money and Power.

[Deleted]

nimras23 said:

ilovetoread247 said:

I just found the brainwashing comment really offensive, fyi.

I agree.

When you post here, kindly remember that you are quite likely talking to someone of the religion you're talking about. If you have a question, ask politely; don't flaunt your ignorance.

Also, a quick google search and about ten minutes of reading will help answer questions in a big way.

Confirmation means different things to different denominations. In the Protestant church, for the most part, it simply means affirming your faith after you've grown old enough to be reasonably sure that you hold to the religion because of your own beliefs and desires, and not simply because it's the religion of your parents. Hence the term "confirmation," you're confirming that you really are that religion.

Some churches are more structured than others. The one I grew up in was very relaxed, to the point of not really having confirmation at all. The one my cousin goes to has people with degrees in philosophy and theology available for you to talk to, so you can ask the tough questions and decide if you agree with them or not. It's a bit more formal, where you can stay after the service on Sundays and learn the history of the church and attend debates and lectures.

sam said:

In fact, lately (and please, please, please DON'T GET MAD AT ME FOR SAYING THIS! I don't want to offend anyone), I think that all religion's been causing is fighting. Don't get me wrong, I respect people's religions. It's a good thing to have another place for security and prayer like a church or a temple. But I've noticed that there are lots of things in our world's history and current events that are caused by religion. I mean, the Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, and World War II were all because of religion.

I'm not mad at you Sam, but as a history major, that statement is rather painful.

The Crusades weren't religious. I could give you a very long essay on the causes of the crusades, but to put it shortly, the Crusades were about land -- and keeping the peace within the countries of the people fighting. The Umayyad Caliphate needed to keep the nomadic people from raiding their cities and towns... so they pointed them towards the Byzantine Empire. The Byzantine Empire called for help to Western Europe, and the West joined in and took land taken from the Umayyad Claiphate as payment for aiding the Byzantines. The reason they get labeled as religious was simply because that was how the language of the time worked. Everything; war, peace, food, famine, cow dung, was applied to the "Glory of God" back then -- on both sides. It was a form of modesty. To claim it as your own was unbelievably rude, but if you attribute it to God, then you get credit for being brilliant and modest.

The Spanish Inquisition was about money, and racial purity (kicking out the Jews and Arabs). It also technically continued until 1834. Most of Spain had been overrun by Moors. In America 1492 is historic because that's when Columbus stumbled upon the Americas -- in Spain it's historic because that's when all of Spain was under Spanish control after several centuries of Middle Eastern occupation. The other main reason was money -- all the property of convicted people reverted to the Crown. There's a reason a lot of wealthy people were "suddenly discovered" to be of Jewish or Arabic decent.

World War II was caused by nationalism and desperation. Religion had nothing to do with it. And before anyone says it, Hitler wasn't Catholic.

If you want a root cause for all wars, history suggests that it is Money and Power.

I don't disagree with you there, Nim, and my teachers have taught me some false facts *glares at teachers*, but because of religion, different groups have been separated. I mean, World War II being used as an example, Hitler was insane in his own right, because of some strange philosophies he got into (yes, strange, I know). He basically wanted everyone to be "pure" because of a prophecy, or something like that (does this sound Catholic to you, Nim? xD). Either way, because of this, he felt he needed to erase people who weren't part of this prophecy. Am I correct? You are right that the root cause of wars are money and power (that's basically the root cause for many bad things xD), but religion certainly didn't exactly help anything. It's just a way to separate people, to exclude them. And I wish people wouldn't do that. I accept religious and cultural differences, but some people don't. *pokes KKK*

Either way, that was the conclusion I came up with after torturous Hebrew School history, and many other things (including the fact that people would kiss up to Jews in my school to go to their Bar/Bat-Mitzvahs).

But still, religion does separate us in some ways.

[Squirrelgirl]

laurensk90 said:

What's that Confirmation process you're talking about exactly? It sounds all brainwash-y to me.

ilovetoread247 said:

Well, I'm pretty sure that Catholic Confirmation is way different from Presbyterian, but I sort of had to respond to the brainwashing comment because confirmation at my church was sort of a defining experience for me. They let us choose, (one boy decided not to get confirmed) and walked us through it and answered and discussed our questions, and we went on a ski trip.

I just found the brainwashing comment really offensive, fyi.

Hey, he doesn't know--don't freak out. One of my non-Christian friends didn't understand why the Catholics, essentially, have a statue of a dead man in all of their Churches (I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but if you were an outsider, you wouldn't understand either and that's pretty much how it would look). We had to tell her about Jesus and the symbolism of the sacrifice, and it's importance to our religion before it made any sense to her. Besides, I also feel it's sorta my fault since I didn't really refer to it all that kindly in my post.

Okay...lemme explain Confirmation. I've heard that many kids have really positive experiences with Confirmation, as it seems ILTR did. I mean, some kids get really, REALLY into it and gain much from it. My Confirmation classes just weren't...well-suited to my approach to religion or very organized. For the Catholic Confirmation, you attend classes once a week, usually on Sundays, for a year if you attend a Catholic school, or for two years if you're in a public school (I'm not sure if it's like this everywhere, but that's how it was for me). These classes are around an hour or so, and in them you are supposed to be taught about faith and whatnot. There are also retreats that are meant to bring you closer to God and with your fellow Confirmees. You also pick a Saint name (I'm actually really not sure what the point of this is. I know it goes on your marriage certificate...and that's about it). You're also supposed to attend Mass every week during your Confirmation process. After Confirmation, you are officially a member of the Catholic Church. The only tangible perks I could gather from this is that it allows you to administer the Eucharist (after other special classes) and join the clergy or get married in the Catholic Church. I'm sure I'm missing something rather major, but I'm not entirely sure what.

For lots of people, the Confirmation process does help them grow closer with God. It can help them gain a better understanding of their faith and make them feel like a part of the Church community. It can also allow them to realize that perhaps this religion isn't really for them. Confirmation is supposed to be optional and done when a person is around 15 or so; it's his choice, not his parents'. Essentially, it's just a teaching process to tell people what the faith believes and if they want to be apart of it.

My Confirmation process, however, wasn't ideal. My mother forced my sister into it with the rather pitiful excuse of, "So you can get married in the Church!" I would have chosen to get confirmed, but this gave me negative vibes from the start. In addition, the teachers didn't seem to have any clear plan over what they were doing and typically taught us things that (while I suppose we should know what our archbishop's full name is) were not as important as DOCTRINE teaching. We spent three classes looking at Saint names, and I felt this a rather waste of time. I was bluntly told I was wrong about my belief that there is no Hell without a decent argument of why I was wrong other than "because that's what the Church says"--something that bothered me tremendously. Finally, and this was the final straw, for one of our Confirmation retreats they had a pinata and told some story of how when the Spanish came to the Americas they told the Native Americans that they would have a competition between their gods. The Spanish, Catholic God would be represented by a wooden stick, and the Native American gods would be represented by clay pots. Guess who won? As I have already described my love and respect for other religions, it comes to no surprise that their use of this story absolutely horrified me. The activity later involved sticking post-it notes to the pinata with something that keeps you from God and smashing it, and I felt the parallel they used with the story rather unnecessary and offensive. I didn't participate.

So yeah. Confirmation is (usually) a positive learning experience that teaches people about the faith and gives them a choice over whether or not they wish to join. It just didn't go that way for me.

[laurensk90]

squirrelgirl said:

laurensk90 said:

What's that Confirmation process you're talking about exactly? It sounds all brainwash-y to me.

ilovetoread247 said:

Well, I'm pretty sure that Catholic Confirmation is way different from Presbyterian, but I sort of had to respond to the brainwashing comment because confirmation at my church was sort of a defining experience for me. They let us choose, (one boy decided not to get confirmed) and walked us through it and answered and discussed our questions, and we went on a ski trip.

I just found the brainwashing comment really offensive, fyi.

Hey, he doesn't know--don't freak out. One of my non-Christian friends didn't understand why the Catholics, essentially, have a statue of a dead man in all of their Churches (I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but if you were an outsider, you wouldn't understand either and that's pretty much how it would look). We had to tell her about Jesus and the symbolism of the sacrifice, and it's importance to our religion before it made any sense to her. Besides, I also feel it's sorta my fault since I didn't really refer to it all that kindly in my post.

Okay...lemme explain Confirmation. I've heard that many kids have really positive experiences with Confirmation, as it seems ILTR did. I mean, some kids get really, REALLY into it and gain much from it. My Confirmation classes just weren't...well-suited to my approach to religion or very organized. For the Catholic Confirmation, you attend classes once a week, usually on Sundays, for a year if you attend a Catholic school, or for two years if you're in a public school (I'm not sure if it's like this everywhere, but that's how it was for me). These classes are around an hour or so, and in them you are supposed to be taught about faith and whatnot. There are also retreats that are meant to bring you closer to God and with your fellow Confirmees. You also pick a Saint name (I'm actually really not sure what the point of this is. I know it goes on your marriage certificate...and that's about it). You're also supposed to attend Mass every week during your Confirmation process. After Confirmation, you are officially a member of the Catholic Church. The only tangible perks I could gather from this is that it allows you to administer the Eucharist (after other special classes) and join the clergy or get married in the Catholic Church. I'm sure I'm missing something rather major, but I'm not entirely sure what.

For lots of people, the Confirmation process does help them grow closer with God. It can help them gain a better understanding of their faith and make them feel like a part of the Church community. It can also allow them to realize that perhaps this religion isn't really for them. Confirmation is supposed to be optional and done when a person is around 15 or so; it's his choice, not his parents'. Essentially, it's just a teaching process to tell people what the faith believes and if they want to be apart of it.

My Confirmation process, however, wasn't ideal. My mother forced my sister into it with the rather pitiful excuse of, "So you can get married in the Church!" I would have chosen to get confirmed, but this gave me negative vibes from the start. In addition, the teachers didn't seem to have any clear plan over what they were doing and typically taught us things that (while I suppose we should know what our archbishop's full name is) were not as important as DOCTRINE teaching. We spent three classes looking at Saint names, and I felt this a rather waste of time. I was bluntly told I was wrong about my belief that there is no Hell without a decent argument of why I was wrong other than "because that's what the Church says"--something that bothered me tremendously. Finally, and this was the final straw, for one of our Confirmation retreats they had a pinata and told some story of how when the Spanish came to the Americas they told the Native Americans that they would have a competition between their gods. The Spanish, Catholic God would be represented by a wooden stick, and the Native American gods would be represented by clay pots. Guess who won? As I have already described my love and respect for other religions, it comes to no surprise that their use of this story absolutely horrified me. The activity later involved sticking post-it notes to the pinata with something that keeps you from God and smashing it, and I felt the parallel they used with the story rather unnecessary and offensive. I didn't participate.

So yeah. Confirmation is (usually) a positive learning experience that teaches people about the faith and gives them a choice over whether or not they wish to join. It just didn't go that way for me.

Thanks for explaining. I didn't mean to offend anyone, your first post just made that impression on me, and I was just looking for clarification.

[(_+*Lou*+_)]

It's all right, . I was a bit overly hostile, I think.

[Jacob]

Hmmm...yes, this seems like a good place to start religious debate...I think.

Recently gave my top 3 priorities in what I would like a partner, and the first, being a free thinker, got some eyebrows raised because I referred it to being without belief in a god (among other things, but for the sake of this discussion...*shrugs*). Was told that someone can believe in a god and still be a free thinker, because they chose that path. I basically said you aren't thinking freely because you think what a god tells you to think, and that it's a shame they would chose that.

I just feel people cannot live life to the fullest when they are constantly cowering in fear, being dictated by an invisible force which knows what you are thinking. I just find it impossible to completely fall for someone who is like that. Not only would I know they aren't thinking for themselves, they are always thinking I'm going to be punished forever (or a period of time) by not thinking like them. Despite of who I am or what I've done.

I do know I can never find someone who thinks just like me, and I know that's not the point of dating. ould be a boring relationship anyway, because I would never be challenged or grow, and that's the whole point of living. Worship is just viewed as a negative with me, and I find it hard to be intimate with someone who does it.

On another note, I don't put myself under any titles, be it atheist, agnostic, democrat, republican or even liberal. I don't feel they represent me or how I think in any way, and instead to say "I'm myself". Proper to think or say something like that?

[KitClairvoyance]

jacob said:

Hmmm...yes, this seems like a good place to start religious debate...I think.

Recently gave my top 3 priorities in what I would like a partner, and the first, being a free thinker, got some eyebrows raised because I referred it to being without belief in a god (among other things, but for the sake of this discussion...*shrugs*). Was told that someone can believe in a god and still be a free thinker, because they chose that path. I basically said you aren't thinking freely because you think what a god tells you to think, and that it's a shame they would chose that.

I just feel people cannot live life to the fullest when they are constantly cowering in fear, being dictated by an invisible force which knows what you are thinking. I just find it impossible to completely fall for someone who is like that. Not only would I know they aren't thinking for themselves, they are always thinking I'm going to be punished forever (or a period of time) by not thinking like them. Despite of who I am or what I've done.

I do know I can never find someone who thinks just like me, and I know that's not the point of dating. could be a boring relationship anyway, because I would never be challenged or grow, and that's the whole point of living. Worship is just viewed as a negative with me, and I find it hard to be intimate with someone who does it.

On another note, I don't put myself under any titles, be it atheist, agnostic, democrat, republican or even liberal. I don't feel they represent me or how I think in any way, and instead to say "I'm myself". Proper to think or say something like that?

The problem with your reasoning about religion right there is that assumption that we who are religious "aren't thinking for themselves, they are always thinking I'm going to be punished forever (or a period of time) by not thinking like them. Despite of who I am or what I've done."

We are far from blind sheep. xD .. we really are. In fact, your assumption that we are blind sheep shows that you haven't done much research of the matter, and all you're working from is the general impression that you have of religion, blindly following the image that you have been given.

Every Christian worth his or her salt will at some point question their faith. I have, and everyone I know closely has. I have researched other religions and philosophies, read up everything from shamanism to Islam. I know friends who are Muslim, Bhuddist, Christian, Atheist, Agnostic, and we all have talked about what we believe in, and why we believe in it. I've seen different points of views, and ultimately I choose to be Christian.

I am not "constantly cowering in fear, being dictated by an invisible force which knows what you are thinking." So please, can we drop that assumption? xD ..I live a very fulfilling life, thank you. I'm excelling at university with a double major, I have a lot of good friends, I have a girlfriend of more than a year and a half. Heck, we've only had one thrid of our relationship together, the rest was long distance and we're going strong, and a good part of that is due to our religion.

I'd almost say that you're the one cowering in fear, a fear of religion in itself that it will bind you down. Have you ever thought that you're the one being dictated by an invisible force? One from the refusal to look at things from another perspective. Open your mind a little, and don't live by assumption.

[Stal]

Jacob, I don't know if you've picked up on it or not, but your arguments against religious folk are bit...hypocritical?

Take it in this light: Religion includes in itself a philosophy about life. These philosophies are usually about overcoming one's baser instincts and striving to become a better human being, doing good, etc. That philosophy also provides the guidelines by which to accomplish it.

People are free to choose to follow or not to follow those guidelines. There are consequences for following and not following. Some good, some not so good. The consequences are just the results of the actions.

Very few religious people I know do what they do out of fear of punishment (certainly not those in my religion, for instance, as we do not believe in an ever-burning hell that sinners are sent to upon death, but also none of the people I know who DO believe in hell, either). They do what they do, because they find it to be what is right. It's not a matter of "I would like to do this, but The Big Man says it's wrong, so I better not do it because He'll get me.... Eep." It's more like "Part of me wants to do that, but I know it's not right to do, so I'm not going to."

Now we get to the subjective points: right and wrong.

You would obviously feel that certain points in the philosophies of religion are wrong. That's fine, because the same people would view your own philosophy as wrong, too. Each side can justify their own all they want, but it always comes down to the fact that a person will make their choice and life by a set of guidelines that they find to be right, even if others don't agree with them. And that's usually how people (barring the extremists with their children) come to a certain religion: they find in it an explanation of life, and a set of guidelines of life that they not only agree with, but see as correct. Then they strive to follow those guidelines and attain the ends I mentioned before.

I like what someone mentioned on the last thread: it's no different than a person deciding that eating meat is terrible and they'll no longer eat it, and become a vegetarian (or even a vegan). Or someone viewing all life as precious to the point of going out of her way to not harm an ant. I could go on with the philosophies that people choose that impose certain boundaries on their actions, but they've consciously made the choice to follow those guidelines because they see it as right and correct.

Religion simply gives a different outlook on life and the universe than other points of view do. It contains a philosophy of what and how to live that people are free to either accept or reject (which all philosophies of life contain). Yeah, sure, a religious philosophy includes a deity in the mix, but that deity doesn't make people cower, nor do most view their deity as a strict, terrible, oppressive being.

But alas, no one can ever make you see that the religious aren't as bad as you've come to believe they are. Even when confronted with many of those that do not fit your assumptions, you continue to act as if ALL of them do. As Kit said, you really do need to have a more open mind about religious people and come to realize that your assumptions about them are just plain wrong.