Declawing, devoicing, the whole shebang

[Minu]

Because I don't believe the subjects like that have been touched yet here, I decided to make a thread about it.

What do you think of the following: Declawing, devoicing, cropping, beak splitting and wing trimming?

Personally, I can't completely stand any of them.

With declawing, say your cat accidentally gets out and meets another cat. If a fight happened, the declawed cat would most likely not be able to defend itself as well. After all, it only would have teeth, or half of their claws, to defend with. Think if we had our fingers and toes cut off from the first knuckle. We wouldn't be that well off. And if you don't want the cat to destroy things... Don't get one.

Devoicing is just cruel--If you don't want the noise, you don't get something that makes noise. If we thought we couldn't handle our Quaker's(Quakers are loud birds for their size)noise, we wouldn't have gotten him. There are ways you can teach animals to not go around barking or squawking their heads off, but people tend to forget that even the loudest of animals is smart enough to learn the right time to vocalize.

Cropping has it's good points and bad points, but the good points I can remember only go into play if you plan on using them for hunting, or things like tunneling competitions. Hence, I'd prefer a dog left uncropped.

Beak splitting... -shudders- It's completely unnessary to get a bird's beak split. If you're trying to breed an aggressive bird, you shouldn't be breeding anyways. And if you aren't... You can't handle the bird well enough. Sometimes birds can't even eat normally because some careless owner had their beak split.

Wing trimming also has its good points and bad points. Say your bird flies out of your reach, up high. It wouldn't be the best of things for a bird that testy to just let it fly over your head, therefore making it the Alpha bird. However, both trimmed and untrimmed birds could fly away. Gusts of wind could be all your bird needs to take off when outside. But if a bird is completely trimmed, they might flutter to the ground without you noticing, and all it takes is one step to kill a small bird, or mortally wound it.

Just my two cents on things.

[Komori]

I don't have an opinion on declawing, since I don't have a cat. But I bet it wouldn't hurt so much if they scratched you.

Devoicing, I've never heard of. Is it just for birds, or all pets? What about dogs? That's a strange idea, I didn't think it was possible to have an animal devoiced. Then again, I have a rabbit, so he's pretty quiet anyway.

I don't like dogs with cropped ears. They're cuter when they're floppy anyway.

Beak splitting? I don't know what that is either.

Wing trimming. Actually, I think that would be better. That way, they can't fly away and get lost in a big house. Of course, if you aren't watching the bird, he should be in his cage anyway, so he wouldn't get stepped on. Then again, I don't like birds as pets. It's kinda' sad to keep them cooped up in a cage, when they should be flying in the sky. (same with fish in small aquariums. )

[Torey]

I've never really given this much thought. However, some of the things you mentioned, especially devoicing, sounds plain cruel. Okay, so animals may not be able to talk, but they still need their voice. What if it was in danger or in pain, you were in another room unaware that it was injured and left it to suffer until you found it? It might even have died by then, if the injury is serious. And you'd be surprised how much an animal can use its voice to communicate.

Beak splitting. I'm not too keen on the way that sounds. But I know absolutely nothing about it apart from what you said, and if a bird cannot eat properly then it's a definite no-no for me.

My dog has her tail docked though. If it were up to us she would have a tail but the people we had her off as a puppy had docked all of the puppies' tails. I guess some people think they look prettier that way. I don't.

Wing trimming I'm not so concerned about. I guess I should be really, considering that birds with wings were meant to fly. I see it more on this side though: If you were keeping ducks or something of the sort, out in the open, you wouldn't want them to fly away, would you?

I wasn't concerned about declawing either but when you mention that cats lose their self defence then it gives cause for concern.

[pudgymonkey]

Well, I've only had cats and a dog so I never heard of devoicing or beak splitting, which sound horrible.

I think declawing cats is fine as long as the cat is strictly indoor. I've always had outdoor cats so I never really had to deal with it because of their need for claws, but I think that declawing cats can be very useful expecially with small children. As for the scratching problem, declawing seems like the logical thing to do rather than getting rid of the cat. Im a huge animal person so not getting a cat just because of my furniture seems like a petty reason.

I had a boxer and his ears were left uncropped, leaving him much cuter, although once he got one of his ears caught on the fence. It really just depends on the dog I think. Im my case my dog might have died had we gotten his ears cropped so it was never an option. I personally prefer dogs with uncropped ears.

[TheEaterofWorlds]

Devoicing is awful. My dog is a loud, loud whineypants but I still would not even consider that. As for cropping, I don't agree with it for asthetic reasons, but if it's done for health reasons (Like sheep, they actually have quite long tails but they are cropped at a young age. If they aren't cropped they can develop some very serious infections and when it comes down to cropping or illness the choice is pretty obvious.)

Humans love changing around animals to suit their needs. -__-

[Princess Ember Mononoke]

I don't agree with declawing. Some experts believe that it actually causes the animals pain, though others disagree. Either way, it's agreed that it deadens their ability to excersize a certain tendon. Personally, I would not like having the first digits of all my fingers removed - which is the human equivelant to declawing - removed even under anesthesia and if they could be replaced with equally useful artificial digit, if only because I would never feel like a whole person again. I'm not saying I know for a fact that a cat would feel this way, but they're such proud, high-strung creatures, you have to wonder. And besides that, I don't believe in doing things to animals that you would never do to a human. If you get a cat some scratching posts - GOOD scratching posts, mind you, not the wimpy kind that can fall over when the cat uses them - and teach them to use them, they will not scratch your furniture. True, they may occassionally scrape you up a little, but that's just part of owning a cat. And besides that, cats who have been declawed sometimes become nervous and insecure, which leads to extreme biting problems.

As for devoicing, that's just wrong. I don't think I need to list the reasons why, as I'm confident that no one here agrees with it. If I'm wrong, feel free to call me out on it, and I'll give you an argument.

Can someone please explain to me what exactly beak-splitting is? It sounds positively dreadful.

Tail docking and ear cropping. Dreadful. This is like putting someone through cosmetic surgery without their consent - or anesthesia, for that manner. Although, as TEOW said, if it's for health reasons, it's better done than left undone.

Wingclipping really depends on the lifestyle of the bird. It should be the decision of the owner.

[Kiddo]

The only one I have experience is declawing. I believe that in some circumstances, declawing is a viable option. Cats are very stubborn and once their personality is set it's nearly impossible to change, not without seriously damaging the cat. So what do you do if you have a destructive or hyper-agressive cat? Abandon it? Put it to sleep?

My family has declawed one cat and had another we should have declawed. The first was extremely agressive and almost blinded my brother so we took out her front claws. How agressive? At the vet it took three people to give her a shot, a muzzle, and a waiver in case they hurt her in the process, which did happen once. After her claws were out it was much better with her. She didn't lose any mobility and if anything, mellowed out and was actually able to be a pet again.

The other was Eme who went insane and was tearing up her neck to the point where we'd find blood splattered all over the walls. We should have had her declawed. I don't know why we didn't. Maybe we thought it'd just make her even more insane... I don't know. We put her outside to see if that'd help but she ran away and is most likely dead now.

Both those cats I took in off the street. They were normal for a while then once they got settled... eh. Altough I have no idea what happened to Eme, I brought her in when she was a kitten and her brother turned out fine. I'm technically not allowed to bring in street cats anymore.

But both of those are extreme circumstances. I believe only if a cat has reached something of those extremes should it be declawed. If it's a threat to other animals, people, or itself. Also, if it's destruction of furniture and stuff is causing genuine problems. Liiiike, tearing up the walls in an apartment.

[TheEaterofWorlds]

Kiddo has a really good point. I think with all of these things, you have to ask why you want the procedure done. If the answer is 'for the sake of the animal', then I can understand. Anything that keep an animal alive, that allows a domestic animal to live together with people, is better than the alternative. An unadoptable animal is put to sleep, an abandoned animal will die.

I don't like altering an animal just to make it 'look cool'.

If I remember correctly the tail docking on sheep is done pretty painlessly. The tail is tied off and looses circulation, the nerve endings and such no longer register in that part of the body, and the dead part of the limb is cut off. Ah, I'm sketchy on the details, I can't remember anymore.

Even worse then beak splitting is the practice of de-beaking that goes on in the poultry industry. To stop the birds from attacking each other in the small space they live in, the bird's beaks are cut off. It's quite disgusting.

Obviously people are going to keep eating meat. However the conditions in the industry need to be reformed. (The problem is not typically small privately owned farms, but the larger factory style ones.) If we're going to keep on eating meat, then there needs to be more strick laws about how the animals live and how they are killed.

Humans can be very selfish when it comes to our relations with animals. Perfectly good mutts (That only take a small adoption fee) are left in shelters while people pay a few thousand for 'pure breds'. Our sense of asthetics causes us to breed animals for looks and results in inbred animals with serious genetic diseases. (Current standards of dog breeds started in the Victorian era, which makes it easier to understand where the thought of lineage and 'pure bloodline' being important came from.) Not to mention the demand for puppies to be bought (Despite our HUGE pet overpopulation problem) resulting in puppy mills.

The really sick part is that we could solve so many of these problems so easily, but it first takes a change in many long standing attitudes. Cats and dogs should be spayed and neutered. End of story. People should adopt and decrease the stray populations, not patronize a system that creates *more* animals. People should stop the casual breeding of animals. (That tinkles me off sooo bad. You don't need to breed your animals! Even if you want another little Fido. >_< It is a stressful and dangerous time for the female, you're not doing her any favors by having her bred!)

I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but I had to get that stuff off of my chest...

[Princess Ember Mononoke]

www.pacifier.com/~birdart/galah/solutions.html

THAT is beak splitting.

[TheEaterofWorlds]

That is beak splitting. I think there is a slight differance between the two.

upc-online.org/debeak.html
upc-online.org/batthen.html

In debeaking the hard beak as well as the underlying cartalige and soft tissue is cut through with a hot knife (to cauterize as it cuts, it stops the bird from bleeding to death.) this procudure is almost always done without any sort of pain relief. It goes right through the flesh inside the beak which has nerves in it. Some times both the bottom and the top parts of the beak are removed. It often results in infections and a condition where huge welts grow from the tips of the cut beaks. The animals are in pain for several months and many stop eating because of the pain and starve to death.

[Princess Ember Mononoke]

TheEaterofWorlds said:

That is beak splitting. I think there is a slight differance between the two.

upc-online.org/debeak.html
upc-online.org/batthen.html

In debeaking the hard beak as well as the underlying cartalige and soft tissue is cut through with a hot knife (to cauterize as it cuts, it stops the bird from bleeding to death.) this procudure is almost always done without any sort of pain relief. It goes right through the flesh inside the beak which has nerves in it. Some times both the bottom and the top parts of the beak are removed. It often results in infections and a condition where huge welts grow from the tips of the cut beaks. The animals are in pain for several months and many stop eating because of the pain and starve to death.

Eep. That's what I meant. I actually knew what debeaking was - it was beak splitting I had never heard of. *goes to edit*

[theunorthodox]

Well, I'm a little mixed on this.
I don't really like the idea of altering animals unless it benefits them.

For example, neutering. In some animals, they *have* to be spayed or neutered for their own health. Like with ferrets, because females have a 90% chance of dying because of the increased hormones during heat. But with dogs and cats, it's just to prevent them making nasty messes on the carpet, being agressive, or making babies. This could be considered cruel because it prevents the animal from living it's life to the fullest and being able to reproduce. Everyone knows one of the strongest animal urges is sex, yet millions and billions of cats and dogs are spayed and neutered each year and it's considered good for them.

I don't like the idea of declawing because if the proceduer goes wrong the cat can lose the nerves in it's paws. Have you ever seen a cat that went lame from a declawing proceduer gone wrong? They have to shuffle along on their wrists.

Devoicing was actually originally used by policemen and gang members to stop their dogs from barking so that they'd simply attack without warning.

Beak splitting is a pretty unnecesary thing. I've never found anything useful on it.

I can only see wing trimming helpful if the bird has injured itself and isn't allowed to fly because it could further injured itself.

[Tdyans]

The said:

Well, I'm a little mixed on this.
I don't really like the idea of altering animals unless it benefits them.

For example, neutering. In some animals, they *have* to be spayed or neutered for their own health. Like with ferrets, because females have a 90% chance of dying because of the increased hormones during heat. But with dogs and cats, it's just to prevent them making nasty messes on the carpet, being agressive, or making babies. This could be considered cruel because it prevents the animal from living it's life to the fullest and being able to reproduce. Everyone knows one of the strongest animal urges is sex, yet millions and billions of cats and dogs are spayed and neutered each year and it's considered good for them.

I'm sorry, but I consider it much more cruel to allow more animals to come into the world where thousands are already being put to sleep every day or ill-treated because there isn't room for them. Or to let an animal have litter after litter after litter from a very early age until it dies because that's what nature tells it to do. Domestictated animals already aren't living "natural" animal lives-- it's not natural to eat kibble, walk on a leash, live in a house, get vaccinations against diseases, etc. It's not natural to have humans care for you and make your life a lot longer and more comfortable than it would be in the wild. Because we *have* taken them out of the wild and made their lives this way, because they *are* under our care, we have a responsibility to do what's best for them. I really don't think fixing animals keeps them from living their lives to the fullest, and even if they are conscious of the fact that they're missing something, the benefits-- fewer animals needing homes, better health (spayed/neutered animals tend to live longer and of course it reduces the risk of mammary tumors, etc), animals with a better temperament so they can find and stay in a home, and animals that won't wander and get lost, hit by a car, etc.-- far outweight that in my mind.


As for the other stuff, I don't know much about declawing, but I tend to hear mostly negative stuff about it. Kiddo does make a point that sometimes things that could be considered cruel in most cases are necessary in a few. Devoicing-- yeah, if you don't want something that makes noise, don't get a pet. I've heard dogs with their voice boxes try to bark, and they're not noiseless, but they do sound horrible. Cropping and docking-- these practices started out with a purpose, and for working dogs they still have a purpose. Hunting and herding dogs are better off with cropped ears and docked tails because it keeps them from being hurt while working. Guard dogs and such are cropped to look scarier. There are still some house dogs that need to be docked because they'll wag their tails bloody. Other than for those reasons (minus the guard dog one, because I wouldn't want a scary-looking guard dog anyway), I personally wouldn't do it. But I know people who obviously love their dogs very much and also make a strong argument for why they want them cropped/docked, and I know people who make a strong argument for it being cruel when it's only cosmetic, especially people from Britain as I understand it's much less common (and maybe even against the law?) there. All I can say is, if you want to have it done, have it done by a good vet at least. I've seen the results of idiots trying to do it on their own. Beak splitting-- don't know anything about it, but it doesn't sound nice and if it's for the purpose of breeding an agressive animal, just no. Temperament should be second only to health in considering whether an animal should be bred. Wing trimming-- when we got our budgie, my mom read something that said they live longer if you don't trim their wings, so we never trimmed his after the initial trimming they did at the pet store. Of course, now years later I've read the exact opposite. Plus, he's rather accident prone when he flies. I can see good reason for the practice, and I can see it being okay not to have it done. I'd have to do more research to decide one way or the other or decide that it depends on the specific bird and specific owner.

[Princess Ember Mononoke]

Tdyans said:

I'm sorry, but I consider it much more cruel to allow more animals to come into the world where thousands are already being put to sleep every day or ill-treated because there isn't room for them. Or to let an animal have litter after litter after litter from a very early age until it dies because that's what nature tells it to do. Domestictated animals already aren't living "natural" animal lives-- it's not natural to eat kibble, walk on a leash, live in a house, get vaccinations against diseases, etc. It's not natural to have humans care for you and make your life a lot longer and more comfortable than it would be in the wild. Because we *have* taken them out of the wild and made their lives this way, because they *are* under our care, we have a responsibility to do what's best for them. I really don't think fixing animals keeps them from living their lives to the fullest, and even if they are conscious of the fact that they're missing something, the benefits-- fewer animals needing homes, better health (spayed/neutered animals tend to live longer and of course it reduces the risk of mammary tumors, etc), animals with a better temperament so they can find and stay in a home, and animals that won't wander and get lost, hit by a car, etc.-- far outweight that in my mind.

Well said!

From what I've seen, it seems to me that spayed and nuetured animals are actually happier. Not many species actually have orgasms. Humans, dolphins, chimps, and bonobos are the only ones that I know of. For most animals, the sex drive is nothing more than that - a drive. One that never goes away and is anything but pleasant.

Not to mention the problems of having only a single animal. When my family first got Darby (rest in peace ), he was one mixed up little bunny rabbit! Then we got him castrated, and ever since he was just about the happiest little creature I'd ever seen.

[theunorthodox]

I'm sorry, but I consider it much more cruel to allow more animals to come into the world where thousands are already being put to sleep every day or ill-treated because there isn't room for them. Or to let an animal have litter after litter after litter from a very early age until it dies because that's what nature tells it to do. Domestictated animals already aren't living "natural" animal lives-- it's not natural to eat kibble, walk on a leash, live in a house, get vaccinations against diseases, etc. It's not natural to have humans care for you and make your life a lot longer and more comfortable than it would be in the wild. Because we *have* taken them out of the wild and made their lives this way, because they *are* under our care, we have a responsibility to do what's best for them. I really don't think fixing animals keeps them from living their lives to the fullest, and even if they are conscious of the fact that they're missing something, the benefits-- fewer animals needing homes, better health (spayed/neutered animals tend to live longer and of course it reduces the risk of mammary tumors, etc), animals with a better temperament so they can find and stay in a home, and animals that won't wander and get lost, hit by a car, etc.-- far outweight that in my mind.

Whoa, chill. I'm on your side. I feel the same way, I was just playing Devil's Advocate, you know? Trying to get people to think on both sides of the equation? I'm totally for fixing your pets. In fact, I couldn't stand my old neighbors, because they let their cats breed like rabbits because they thought spaying is cruel and they love adorable baby kittens...so now we have about thirty or fourty feral cats that roam my streets, since they discovered they couldn't afford that many animals. They moved away last year and left the cats. Disgusting behavior...
I just wanted to remind people that some surgical alterations of pets *are* good for them.