Gay people

[The Angry Artist]

IDL said:

Am I the only one that finds it interesting that over half of men in the U.S. infected with AIDS/HIV are homosexuals? (I couldn't find the statitics for women)

Now, Pat, those were very wise words indeed. Very wise. First I just want to say you are 100% correct on Jesus; but bear in mind, he did not condone these people. He tried to help them. Don't forget that - rejecting the gay people is darn foolish, but that does not mean you need to agree with them.

And Pat, just how often do people who marry not have sex? Honestly. Obviously that's not the reason (usually) but sex is, as far as I've learned, an express of love between two married people. That's what it shows, and most married people do that to express love. And with 60% of men with HIV/AIDS being gay, I'm thinking that God wasn't tossing rules in the air when he said men shouldn't have sex.

IDL, you're reading too far into this. You're connecting two facts that have nothing to do with each other. Not only that, but the conclusions you're drawing are ridiculous. Why would over 1/2 of HIV-infected men have AIDS? It's possible they didn't think they could transfer AIDS like that. Honestly. You're essentially saying, "If you have sex with a man you'll get AIDS." Similarly, if you have AIDS and have sex with a woman she will receive AIDS. Note that according to you, 60% of MEN who have AIDS are homosexuals. Nowhere does that say 100% of homosexuals have AIDS.

[Linnen Malfoy]

IDL said:

Am I the only one that finds it interesting that over half of men in the U.S. infected with AIDS/HIV are homosexuals? (I couldn't find the statitics for women)

Now, Pat, those were very wise words indeed. Very wise. First I just want to say you are 100% correct on Jesus; but bear in mind, he did not condone these people. He tried to help them. Don't forget that - rejecting the gay people is darn foolish, but that does not mean you need to agree with them.

And Pat, just how often do people who marry not have sex? Honestly. Obviously that's not the reason (usually) but sex is, as far as I've learned, an express of love between two married people. That's what it shows, and most married people do that to express love. And with 60% of men with HIV/AIDS being gay, I'm thinking that God wasn't tossing rules in the air when he said men shouldn't have sex.

But AIDS/HIV is not only a 'gay'problem but a problem for everyone. True, men to men sexual contact is a higher risk for AIDS, however that is not to say that only men/men sexual encounters get AIDS, anyone can get it.
Personaly, I feel that labeling AIDS as 'a homosexuality problem' only hinders it more than it helps. People think "well I'm not gay, so I can't get it!", but you can! Then there is an entire sterotype on those who have AIDS (mostly involving them being 'gay').

I'm thinking that God wasn't tossing rules in the air when he said men shouldn't have sex.

I'm very much hoping I misread you IDL, because I think it's very sad if you are insuiating that God created HIV/AIDS to detour men from having sex. AIDS has risen to the level it's at because of ignorance in the 80's and 90's. By the time the problem was fully admitted to, the epidemic grew to the proprtions it is today.

I just find it sad when people label AIDS as a 'gay thing', and then dismiss it. Today numbers are growing again for AIDS because people are dismissing it as a problem for one group, but it's a problem for EVERYONE. It's like saying that only Jewish people get ebola.

By the way, the stats for women were around 47%. I don't know if that was from woman/woman contact or simply from woman/male contact, but I'm assming it would be from woman/male contact.

[Patjade]

IDL said:

Am I the only one that finds it interesting that over half of men in the U.S. infected with AIDS/HIV are homosexuals? (I couldn't find the statitics for women)

Now, Pat, those were very wise words indeed. Very wise. First I just want to say you are 100% correct on Jesus; but bear in mind, he did not condone these people. He tried to help them. Don't forget that - rejecting the gay people is darn foolish, but that does not mean you need to agree with them.

And Pat, just how often do people who marry not have sex? Honestly. Obviously that's not the reason (usually) but sex is, as far as I've learned, an express of love between two married people. That's what it shows, and most married people do that to express love. And with 60% of men with HIV/AIDS being gay, I'm thinking that God wasn't tossing rules in the air when he said men shouldn't have sex.

Ah, but it seems that women are now one of the top targets for getting HIV/AIDS these days. Just watch the recent evening news. To claim that HIV/AIDS is a Gay disease is uninformed. MOST people who HAVE HIV/AIDS are not Gay.

True, sex is a natural expression of deep love between a couple, but it seems sex is the main reason for marriage these days, and look at the heterosexual divorce rates, then look at the longevity of the relationships between gay couples. I think you will find thet hetero couples should be ashamed of themselves. Why deny the ultimate commitment to a couple that tends to show what the TRUE meaning of marriage and commitment is about because the couple are of the same sex?

And Jesus NEVER said to love another person EXCEPT if they are Gay or something. He never told people he associated with that they had to quit being ANYTHING to get into Heaven. Jesus lead by EXAMPLE, not threats.

*Aside to Oily: I wasn't getting on your case. I think that anyone who is hitting on others when it is unwanted, regardless of whether they are the opposite sex or of the same sex, is wrong. But then, I happen to be against casual sex. I think that there should BE a commitment between a couple, since the giving of ones's body should be the ultimate gift, not the first token of offering to gain a friendship or to relieve a tension or some such crap.

[Oily]

Patjade said:

*Aside to Oily: I wasn't getting on your case. I think that anyone who is hitting on others when it is unwanted, regardless of whether they are the opposite sex or of the same sex, is wrong. But then, I happen to be against casual sex. I think that there should BE a commitment between a couple, since the giving of ones's body should be the ultimate gift, not the first token of offering to gain a friendship or to relieve a tension or some such crap.

Mm, I just wanted to clarify what I'd said and make it obvious I wholly support your view (Except on the casual sex thing, possibly. A commitment is always a good idea, but if people want to do it, as long as they do it responsibly, then I have no objections.)


IDL, linking AIDs so totally to gay people is what has stigmatised people over AIDs for years and helped its development into a devestating epidemic. AIDs is now a huge problem among women too. It is huge all over Asia and Africa, and many places where homosexuality is still actually illegal, and may even carry a death penalty.
In fact, a huge amount of AIDs cases in Africa now are among married, faithful women.
AIDs can also be gotten in many ways - children get it from their mothers in the womb; junkies get it from sharing needles; people can get it from blood transfusions.

I believe women to women infections are very low, however

AIDs is a horrible disease, quickly becoming an epidemic, that is a danger to everyone. To notice it only as a 'gay disease' insults and harms everyone; to infer that God sent it down as a punishment is ridiculous. It affects even tiny children who have not even had a chance to live.

It was World Aids Day only a few days ago: the true information about the disease should be known, to help continue to halt the spread of such a horrible thing.

[Rider]

[glow=red,2,300]Alright, first off I'd also like to bash IDL over the head a little. Not for the whole "AIDS is a gay disease" thing, but for saying that God created AIDS to prevent gay couples from having sex. I mean, honestly. God wouldn't do that to His people.

What turns me off beyond reason, (and this isn't aimed at IDL. It's aimed at my self-righteous religion teacher and people in general,) is when people think they know God's Plan. No one knows God's Plan but God. Sure, they say in the Bible that marrigae is between a man and a woman, but the Bible also says that prostitutes should be stoned to death. In fact, the Bible says a lot of things about the death penalty that we're not gonna get into.

Point is: the Bible reflected the views of the time. Most of those views remain true today. Love thy neighbor, love thy God, etc. And the Bible teaches acceptance. That's the more important than the laws of yesteryear.

I talk in circles, and I apologize. [/glow]

[kittygirl]

Rider- said:

[glow=red,2,300]

Point is: the Bible reflected the views of the time. Most of those views remain true today. Love thy neighbor, love thy God, etc. And the Bible teaches acceptance. That's the more important than the laws of yesteryear.
[/glow]

Here, here!
I've gotten over the fact that my friend is gay. I can now look at her with out thinking She is gay.
I knew all along that it would be fine and that I don't care. It was the forgetting I was worried about. I am fine. But you people may still debate over your thoughts becuase this board isn't about me, any more.

Rider I love what you say. The bible does teach oxymorons. But you have to deside what is more important. And the message of acceptnece is defenently the stronger message.

[TK]

Some incorrect facts are appearing to be be tossed about, so I think it might help if some facts are made clear.

Homosexual people are not most inflicted by AIDS as a demographic out of all people in the world. About 68% of all people who have AIDS live in Africa, particularly those in sub-Sarharan countries - pegging them as heterosexuals.

Most of the new infections of the virus in the United States are through homosexual intercourse - 60% - though that, of course, is only the new infections.

Therefore, it is in my beliefs that if God had reason to ban homosexuality and homosexual intercourse, then it would be for other reasons than AIDS.

As for the general topic about the debate, my sentiments have been expressed by Pat, and I really don't see the need to say much else lest the debate becomes redundant.

[irishdragonlord]

Rider- said:

[glow=red,2,300]Alright, first off I'd also like to bash IDL over the head a little. Not for the whole "AIDS is a gay disease" thing, but for saying that God created AIDS to prevent gay couples from having sex. I mean, honestly. God wouldn't do that to His people.

What turns me off beyond reason, (and this isn't aimed at IDL. It's aimed at my self-righteous religion teacher and people in general,) is when people think they know God's Plan. No one knows God's Plan but God. Sure, they say in the Bible that marrigae is between a man and a woman, but the Bible also says that prostitutes should be stoned to death. In fact, the Bible says a lot of things about the death penalty that we're not gonna get into.

Point is: the Bible reflected the views of the time. Most of those views remain true today. Love thy neighbor, love thy God, etc. And the Bible teaches acceptance. That's the more important than the laws of yesteryear.

I talk in circles, and I apologize. [/glow]

Ok, people, let me do a whopping bit of clarification...

TAA, go take your talk to the CDC, where I got this info. And this is for only American men; I could not find sources for the whole world. And TAA - point in fact: 60% of people with AIDS are homosexuals. Can I not conclude homosexuals are at a higher risk?

And Pat, using the logic "God made AIDS to stop men from having sex" is completely rerouting my meaning (I don't think you did it intentionally ). God said don't have homosexual sex BECAUSE of AIDS - why would God make something bad just so someone can't do something?! He made the rules because something bad would happen.

And Linny, I found 25% of women with AIDS get AIDS from heterosexual contact; 15% from drugs; and the rest, I don't know. But if only 25% is from heterosexual sex, and there are so few other options, the homosexual sex rate must be pretty darn high.

And I am NOT saying this is only a gay problem; I'm just saying it's bigger. No more, no less than that.

Pat... what did I say? I said Jesus NEVER said don't love people because they're gay; you seem to think I am. I did not. Also, what are the marriage rate statistics? Finally, Jesus darn well said you had to quit sinning and do your best to get into heaven! Actually, no. That is untrue; salvation is a free gift. HOWEVER - "why should we keep sinning to obtain more grace? If we have changed our ways, why would we sin?". That's a paraphrase from Romans. If you want to be what God wants you to be, you won't keep on living life like before.

Oily - what I said to everyone else, really.

Rider - I. DID. DARN. WELL. NOT. Say God made AIDS to punish homos; Linny did. Not me. Do NOT put words in my mouth. And I do not assume to know God's plan - but does that mean I am hopelessly ignorant? No.

EDIT: Darn, that last bit didn't come out XD

[The Angry Artist]

IDL said:

Ok, people, let me do a whopping bit of clarification...

TAA, go take your talk to the CDC, where I got this info. And this is for only American men; I could not find sources for the whole world. And TAA - point in fact: 60% of people with AIDS are homosexuals. Can I not conclude homosexuals are at a higher risk?

And Pat, using the logic "God made AIDS to stop men from having sex" is completely rerouting my meaning (I don't think you did it intentionally ). God said don't have homosexual sex BECAUSE of AIDS - why would God make something bad just so someone can't do something?! He made the rules because something bad would happen.

And Linny, I found 25% of women with AIDS get AIDS from heterosexual contact; 15% from drugs; and the rest, I don't know. But if only 25% is from heterosexual sex, and there are so few other options, the homosexual sex rate must be pretty darn high.

And I am NOT saying this is only a gay problem; I'm just saying it's bigger. No more, no less than that.

Pat... what did I say? I said Jesus NEVER said don't love people because they're gay; you seem to think I am. I did not. Also, what are the marriage rate statistics? Finally, Jesus darn well said you had to quit sinning and do your best to get into heaven! Actually, no. That is untrue; salvation is a free gift. HOWEVER - "why should we keep sinning to obtain more grace? If we have changed our ways, why would we sin?". That's a paraphrase from Romans. If you want to be what God wants you to be, you won't keep on living life like before.

Oily - what I said to everyone else, really.

Rider - I. DID. DARN. WELL. NOT. Say God made AIDS to punish homos; Linny did. Not me. Do NOT put words in my mouth. And I do not assume to know God's plan - but does that mean I am hoe

You can quote percentages all you want, but it really comes to -- get this -- actual numbers. You say that because 60% of AIDS-inflicted people are homosexual, there is therefore a large number of AIDS-inflicted homosexuals. Until you know numbers, that doesn't mean anything. For instance, let's say there's the set {1, 2, 3, 4}. You can easily conclude that x<4 is 75%. Surely, 75% of the set is less than the maximum number, meaning that unless you revealed how many numbers were in the set or what those numbers were, by your logic there is an extremely large amount of numbers less than the maximum number! But when it revealed that there are only four numbers and just three of them are less than the highest number in the set, the 75% statistic loses its meaning.

Actual numbers:
Amount of HIV-inflicted people in America: ~850,000 - 950,000
Amount of gays in America: 20 million (20,000,000)

Also, your statistic is wrong. Really wrong. The CDC released data today that says that only 44 - 48% of AIDS-inflicted men were homosexual -- not only that, but the amount is up 11 percent from last year. You got the 60% statistic from the 2001 plan by the CDC to treat AIDS.

So.

Let's use the number 900,000 for what I'm about to show you.

The expression ((900000(0.60))/20000000)100 should give us an accruate percentage of gays with AIDS (((amount of men with AIDS(percentage that are homosexual))/how many gays there are in America)number needed to translate into a percentage).

((900000(0.60))/20000000)100
=((540000)/20000000)100
=(540000/20000000)100
=(0.027)100
=2.7%

2.7%. Wow. So God's really successful in dissuading gay men to have sex, then? [And that's with YOUR statistic. Now we'll use the more recent one (released in winter 2004, exact date unknown).

((900000(0.46))/20000000)100
=(414000/20000000)100
=(0.0207)100
=2.07

Only 2.07% of gays have AIDS.]*

As far as the marriage rate, I'm surprised you're asking this -- in another thread on gay marriage it was addressed: The marriage-divorce rate is roughly 50%.

Also, your statement of "God said don't have homosexual sex BECAUSE of AIDS" is entirely illogical when you consider herosexuals. You can get AIDS if you have heterosexual sex with an AIDS-inflicted partner. By your original logic, no one should have sex because someone could get AIDS!

UPDATE: I checked over my sources, and I found that the 2.07% percentage is incorrect because that 44 - 48% is talking about the amount of NEW cases of AIDS; however, that says that ~54% of new AIDS cases are in woman. So I'm going to stick with IDL's original number, which still is a very low amount of AIDS in homosexuals.

*=Ignore the information in the brackets.

[Patjade]

Poor IDL is getting beaten up over the percentage thing. I think it's because 98% of all statistics are made up, or is it 89% I forgot, wait, I just made that up, nevermind.

The problem with percentages and statistics is that people tend to bend the numbers to prove the point they are making, instead of taking raw numbers and letting facts speak is because they seldom support a particular pount of view. The AFA (American Family Association) is notorious for such things, but I digress.

We don't know if gays are more faithful than straight people because Gays are not allowed to get married (therefore unable to get divorced), so those numbers are not available. Anecdotal information tends to support that since Gays are so persecuted for being who they are, they make darned sure that their life partner is committed to a long term relationship.

And I wasn't getting on your case about what God's plan or Jesus' thoughts. The only way to find out is to ask them. I have found the Bible to be somewhat misrepresented and skewed to the various bias of the translator, and there were no actual voice recordings at the time. Therefore, we should not judge and make claims that we know what is good for morality... unlike certain presidents and pompous religious figures seem to do. I haven't seen God personally endorse any of these people yet, and I am pretty sure they will be surprised when they take the next step.

But again, I think this makes either my $.06 or $.08 worth on this subject, so far.

[TheEaterofWorlds]

IDL said:

And Linny, I found 25% of women with AIDS get AIDS from heterosexual contact; 15% from drugs; and the rest, I don't know. But if only 25% is from heterosexual sex, and there are so few other options, the homosexual sex rate must be pretty darn high.

Where did you find this information? Avert.com, a site with many HIV and AIDs statistics said "Since the beginning of the epidemic in the USA, 152,060 women have been diagnosed with AIDS. For these women, heterosexual contact was the most common route of HIV transmission" and "The risks of sexually transmitting HIV between women are very low. Very few women are known to have passed HIV on to other women sexually." Other sites use phrases like 'a handful of women', etc. The exact number of women infected from women to women sex is difficult to know. The reason for this is because many doctors do not ask and many women do not volunteer the information.

About.com's section on AIDs says this; "Through December 1998, 109,311 women were reported with AIDS. Of these, 2,220 were reported to have had sex with women"

The 25% number is not correct, and even if it were, inferring what you did with no solid evidence is foolish.

Here's a good article about AIDS statistics in women who have sex with women; aids.about.com/od/womensresources/a/wsw.htm

The center for Disease control and preventions says "Heterosexual contact was the source of almost 80% of these HIV infections "

There's even a nice pie chart based on another study:



That's 2% of women with HIV who contracted it from a source other than heterosexual contact or IV drug use. 98% as opposed to the 35% you were quoting from an unknown source.

Don't guess. Incorrect facts are almost excusable, but assuming that because you only 'know' the cause of 35% of female infection that 65% got it from sex with other women, or infering towards that is reckless and I like that. If you don't know the numbers, don't make them up. If you aren't sure about something wait until you ARE SURE to say ANYTHING.

Some of the 2% includes blood transfusions and other medical-related transmissions.

You're suggesting that A huge percent, closer to half of women with AIDS get it from Lesbian contact. This is in no way true. Understand that when you make a statment that is not backed by anything, and that statment turns out to be wrong (Even opposite to what is shown by most AIDS research sites I've been to) you loose a lot of credibility.

If you 'found that..." tell me where you found that. Also, don't rely on only one site for your facts. In general when it comes to the internet, check four or five sites. Look for government sources, especially the health department, but colleges aren't bad places to look either. If the same facts are stated over and over again, they do have a better chance of being correct. This is not perfect naturally, but when the information varies little from source to source you can be a little more sure of it.

IDL said:

I. DID. DARN. WELL. NOT. Say God made AIDS to punish homos

I won't fault you for this, I know you didn't mean this in a bad way, but try to avoid saying 'homos'. It's not very nice.

[TheEaterofWorlds]

Patjade said:

The problem with percentages and statistics is that people tend to bend the numbers to prove the point they are making, instead of taking raw numbers and letting facts speak is because they seldom support a particular pount of view. The AFA (American Family Association) is notorious for such things, but I digress.

Yeah, that's true. ^^;; Reminds me of an episode of Cyberchase I saw once. Percentages are funny sometimes. I've seen some charts in the past that *looked* good, but then you read further and see the sample group is like... 50 people. Plus you can up or downplay things like line graphs by using a large or small scale.

Still numbers like 109,311 women with AIDS/HIV and only 2,220 of those being lesbians is pretty striking. I know that I have to consider margin of error, the way they were surveyed, the demographics surveyed, any agenda of the peope gathering the information, etc. Things like this can be so subjective! Plus all the variables involved... It can make your head spin.

I love statistics, though. ^^ Always been my favorite kind of math. I'll try my best to find sources as unbaised as possible and try to be objective. That's the best I know how to do.

[Linnen Malfoy]

TheEaterofWorlds said:

Yeah, that's true. ^^;; Reminds me of an episode of Cyberchase I saw once. Percentages are funny sometimes. I've seen some charts in the past that *looked* good, but then you read further and see the sample group is like... 50 people. Plus you can up or downplay things like line graphs by using a large or small scale.

Yes, I read a book once about how the media potrays stats and then slowly twists them around. During the election it it was very intresting to see the polls and then read where they were taken and how many took them.
Ironicly, in the 4th grade children in Florida are required to take an essay test refuting or agreeing with a point. In tips for the test a handbook suggested using percents, even if you just made them up!

[Rider]

Rider - I. DID. DARN. WELL. NOT. Say God made AIDS to punish homos; Linny did. Not me. Do NOT put words in my mouth. And I do not assume to know God's plan - but does that mean I am hoe

[glow=red,2,300]Yeep?

Once again, this is what I get for skimming. I'm really sorry, IDL.

As for twisting stats around, it's SCARY how people can do that! Especially in huge issues like presidentialelections... (Be back in a minute.)[/glow]

[irishdragonlord]

Rider- said:

[glow=red,2,300]Yeep?

Once again, this is what I get for skimming. I'm really sorry, IDL.

As for twisting stats around, it's SCARY how people can do that! Especially in huge issues like presidentialelections... (Be back in a minute.)[/glow]

S'ok. I am fighting a one man battle here, though XD

And yes, stats can be twisted, but that doesn't mean they're all false.