The Da Vinci Code

[Oily]

Well, we'll never agree because we're coming from opposite ends of the spectrum, plus I have to speak hypothetically the whole time. I don't believe good people go to heaven and bad to hell. But some Christians do, and some don't. I don't have a fixed belief of what I don't believe in It makes it harder.

Also, please don't consider this a debate. I'd rather people held belief, if it has positive effects ^^ I'm just fascinated by people's different views.

But here's the thing: that is a pretty accurate picture of God. With one addition to the metaphor: If that child refuses to repent (your word, not mine) and to accept the forgiveness that the parents are offering, then there's nothing more that the parents can do. They still love him and still show love to him, and that offer of forgiveness is always there, but they can't force him to come back to them and accept it. It's the same with God. He's given us free will, and if we choose to stay out of his forgiveness, he's not going to force it onto us. It's a free gift, but it's up to us whether we want to accept it or not.

I would quite happily repent of all the bad things done in my life, because I am sorry that I did them. The definition of bad is obviously not entirely fixed though. But I don't believe I need belief to wish to be a better person.
A problem with that whole kind of repentance thing is that every thing is shades of grey. I have a close friend who will never say a word against any one…but then, she can't stand up for you properly. I have one who takes offence quickly, but she'll stick by you because of that. Virtue and vice are just different sides of the same coin.

I know you were saying this hypothetically as someone who doesn't really believe in Heaven or Hell anyway, but just for the sake of discussion, let's look at the idea that good people and bad people should not get the same result (whether condemnation or blessing). Good people go to heaven and bad people go to hell, right? Well, first of all, that seems to contradict your earlier wish that God would love you "no matter what you do." Second, how exactly do you determine who are the "good people" and who are the "bad people"? Where do you draw the line between a person who was mostly good and one who's apparently unforgivably bad? Is there a certain number of good or bad things you need to do in order to qualify for one side or the other? Is there a scale measuring the good against the bad? Because if there is, I'd be worried myself. Our human concept of "good" and "bad" are all relative, but God is all about absolutes. There's no way we could live up to His goodness-- it would be impossible. If He expected us to do that, then that would be the ultimate unfairness.

Yeah, the hypothetical thing becomes a problem
One of the things I don't like is the simplistic – good people go here, bad there. There is no good and bad. Hitler was voted into power by a nation that loved him. You're right. There is no measurement of it. But if you were someone who believed there was, then the point would have been relevant ^^

What I was possibly trying to say was that if lack of religion was considered a crime alongside murder and child abuse, then I'd take umbrance at that.

Instead of unfairly expecting that from us, He's offered us a chance that we can't reach by our own efforts. And he does those parents in our metaphor one better. He gave His son to suffer and die to atone for our sins, so that our sins would be not just forgiven, but erased, washed clean. It's not belonging to a certain religion or denomination or doing certain things that saves us-- it is simply accepting that gift by faith.

That doesn't mean that doing good is meaningless. We're still supposed to do good and love others in light of the amazing love that was shown to us-- that we didn't deserve. But, thankfully in my opinion, we are not expected to rely on whatever good we're capable of as imperfect human beings to get us to heaven.

"But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:8

In which case, how can you draw the line? How much good-ness and faith is needed to get to heaven. Could you kill the odd person, but believe, and it might be alright? Is there a kind of sliding scale ?

And, no offence, but I've always found the fact our sins are wiped clean a bit of a Get Out Of Jail Free card. We did nothing, and we got saved. And we should still be kind of good, because that's just nice, but hey, just believe and be saved (Um, that sounds a little rude of me. I respect your beliefs, I just don't really believe in them ^^)

I look at the world and I see it with life everywhere. And I wonder, how is it possible that this beauty, this life, come about because of a chemical reaction and a lightning strike? How is it possible that we think, we talk, we feel, we love, because of random chemicals and electricity? Taking your own words, prove it. Take chemicals. Take electricity. Scientists can provide that. And make me something that lives, even an amoeba or a bacteria.

Yeah, you can't prove life. It's wonderful ^_^ I just find science easier to understand. Life teaches me everything. Science has taught me how to understand parts of life. The Bible has taught me nothing at all :/

Why do bad things happen? Why did Lucifer fall from heaven? Why is it that everybody must die? It's a battle - and we're all up choosing sides.

I never really understood the battles thing either. I don't buy absolute good and absolute evil. Obviously, I can only see it through human standards. Can you explain further on it?

Like parents, you curse at, you spit at, you run from and turn your back on - still they offer you that chance to come back. But what happens when they come to you, asking you to come back, and you spit once more in their faces? Free will, like Tdyans said. To choose whether or not you want to accept or to reject. I'm sure Hitler did something good in his life. I'm sure you did something bad in yours. How's God to judge between you then? Would you call me a good person? I wouldn't. And I wonder if you'll still have free will to choose once you die.

God's offering you that choice. Why are you throwing it in his face?

I guess you do need evidence, at that. Many people do not believe unless they see evidence.

I guess Tdyans said it best.

I do need evidence. If I'm being offered a choice, I like to see my offer and both my options. I haven't been offered anything, as far as I'm concerned. And I don't really believe in the whole judging thing, obviously. In fact, it's one of the reasons I don't believe.
The hypothetical is hard ^^

Ah but that's just it. God hasn't abandoned us. His word and everything is out there. You just have to start hearing and answer. That's where you're missing our perspective. You say it as if He's just totally abandoned, while we say the reverse.

I understand that perspective. I just don't understand what there is to hear.

[sollunaestrella]

Oily said:

In which case, how can you draw the line? How much good-ness and faith is needed to get to heaven. Could you kill the odd person, but believe, and it might be alright? Is there a kind of sliding scale ?

And, no offence, but I've always found the fact our sins are wiped clean a bit of a Get Out Of Jail Free card. We did nothing, and we got saved. And we should still be kind of good, because that's just nice, but hey, just believe and be saved (Um, that sounds a little rude of me. I respect your beliefs, I just don't really believe in them ^^)

Well, the way I see it - if you are a Christian, then you both believe and love Jesus - and you want to be like Him as well, and you want to do His work and make yourself a fit instrument for it. Obviously, you're going to screw up, and then you can repent and be forgiven.

But just look at Saint Paul. The first part of his life was devoted to persecuting Christians - hunting them out, stoning them to death, the whole nine yards. And look where he ended up - he had a revelation and chose to answer God's call. And he was forgiven - but he most certainly didn't go around killing people after he accepted Jesus as a savior.

See, becoming a Christian changes you. You don't want to go around killing people anymore. Instead, you want to spread His love by following His teachings and helping other people.

Oily said:

Yeah, you can't prove life. It's wonderful ^_^ I just find science easier to understand. Life teaches me everything. Science has taught me how to understand parts of life. The Bible has taught me nothing at all :/

I look at science as something to reinforce my faith, actually, rather than disprove. I love looking at parts of life and seeing how they work - and that's another thing that makes me marvel at God's work. Religion and science actually don't really contradict each other if you think about it carefully.

[Tdyans]

Like Oily, I'm not trying to make this a debate or an argument. And no, I'm not seeing it from an atheist's position-- you're right. My point in posting here is to share my perspective as a Christian, especially since there seem to be so many misconceptions about it. If you disagree with that perspective, then that's your choice and I certainly couldn't and wouldn't force it onto you, but neither will that keep me from expressing it.

I don't buy the comparison to a mother who gives her child up for adoption then expects the child to come to her without any knowledge of her existence whatsoever. First because I don't believe that God has just abandoned us. Second because not believing in something and not having any knowledge of something are two very different things. No, God doesn't rearrange the stars into the Lord's Prayer. I'm sorry He doesn't make it easier by hitting us over the head with his presence. But then, He did some pretty amazing things in the past, and people still chose to disobey and disbelieve. You are not totally oblivious to the fact that God could exist like the girl who doesn't know she was adopted-- you have His word and people sitting here telling you about it. You have the "information"-- you simply choose not to believe it. Again, that's your choice, as is whether you agree with me or not.

Oily said:

What I was possibly trying to say was that if lack of religion was considered a crime alongside murder and child abuse, then I'd take umbrance at that.

This is a sentiment that I keep hearing here lately, basically summarized as: Why should God condemn someone just for not believing in Him? Why does He need people to believe in Him? To me, this is looking at the matter backwards. It seems to assume that we all deserve Heaven, and not believing in God condemns us. The truth is, we all deserve Hell, and belief saves us. And God doesn't need us to believe in Him. He could leave us to wallow down here alone, eventually die, and then get exactly what we deserve. But He doesn't, because He loves us.

In which case, how can you draw the line? How much good-ness and faith is needed to get to heaven. Could you kill the odd person, but believe, and it might be alright? Is there a kind of sliding scale ?

No, there's not. And I don't draw the line. God does, and as I said, he deals in absolutes. There is no grey. God does not see things from our limited human perspective. And as I said before, no amount of goodness can get you to Heaven. For Christians, goodness is supposed to be a result of our faith; our faith is not supposed to rely on our goodness. If it did, we'd all be in trouble, because we're all just as human as everyone else. As for how much faith you need, faith is faith is faith. It is faith or it is not. SLE already answered the rest pretty well.

And, no offence, but I've always found the fact our sins are wiped clean a bit of a Get Out Of Jail Free card. We did nothing, and we got saved. And we should still be kind of good, because that's just nice, but hey, just believe and be saved (Um, that sounds a little rude of me. I respect your beliefs, I just don't really believe in them ^^)

I'm not offended. Maybe it does seem too easy, but it's the only chance we have. As you're probably getting tired of me saying, there's no way we could be saved by our own power. It's just a demonstration of how amazing God's love is that He would offer that to us, and make the ultimate sacrifice in order to do so, even though we have done nothing to deserve it other than simply accepting it.

I also agree with what SLE said about science. I look at how perfectly all the laws of nature fit together and make things work the way they do and how even the minutest difference would mean that we weren't here, and it only reinforces my faith. I understand that not everyone sees it that way. Like I said, I'm expressing what I believe, and if you disagree, that's your choice.

[Deleted]

SLE said:

See, becoming a Christian changes you. You don't want to go around killing people anymore. :P Instead, you want to spread His love by following His teachings and helping other people.

*Cough*Hitler*Cough*

[althechia]

TheComedian said:

*Cough*Hitler*Cough*

Ooh, there's a book called 'Hitler's Pope' about Pope...what's-his-face...Maybe a Pious? Anyways, the pope during the World War.

Hitler commited suicide. He ain't in heaven, if heaven exists, which I don't think it does. I think Hitler reincarnated into headlice about 500 times before they upgraded him to chipmunk.

[Crystal]

Tdyans said:

I don't buy the comparison to a mother who gives her child up for adoption then expects the child to come to her without any knowledge of her existence whatsoever. First because I don't believe that God has just abandoned us. Second because not believing in something and not having any knowledge of something are two very different things. No, God doesn't rearrange the stars into the Lord's Prayer. I'm sorry He doesn't make it easier by hitting us over the head with his presence. But then, He did some pretty amazing things in the past, and people still chose to disobey and disbelieve. You are not totally oblivious to the fact that God could exist like the girl who doesn't know she was adopted-- you have His word and people sitting here telling you about it. You have the "information"-- you simply choose not to believe it. Again, that's your choice, as is whether you agree with me or not.


This is a sentiment that I keep hearing here lately, basically summarized as: Why should God condemn someone just for not believing in Him? Why does He need people to believe in Him? To me, this is looking at the matter backwards. It seems to assume that we all deserve Heaven, and not believing in God condemns us. The truth is, we all deserve Hell, and belief saves us. And God doesn't need us to believe in Him. He could leave us to wallow down here alone, eventually die, and then get exactly what we deserve. But He doesn't, because He loves us.


No, there's not. And I don't draw the line. God does, and as I said, he deals in absolutes. There is no grey. God does not see things from our limited human perspective. And as I said before, no amount of goodness can get you to Heaven. For Christians, goodness is supposed to be a result of our faith; our faith is not supposed to rely on our goodness. If it did, we'd all be in trouble, because we're all just as human as everyone else. As for how much faith you need, faith is faith is faith. It is faith or it is not. SLE already answered the rest pretty well.


I'm not offended. Maybe it does seem too easy, but it's the only chance we have. As you're probably getting tired of me saying, there's no way we could be saved by our own power. It's just a demonstration of how amazing God's love is that He would offer that to us, and make the ultimate sacrifice in order to do so, even though we have done nothing to deserve it other than simply accepting it.

This is the example I generally see it as.

A widower judge once had a child, his only child, whom he loved very dearly. But this child later took up with bad company while in his teens without his father's knowledge, and later ran away from home. His father was grieved, very much, but no matter what he did he couldn't find his son to bring him back.

Years later, the child was finally caught for a number of crimes, stealing and so on. He was brought before the judge. To his horror, he realized that this judge was his father! And his father, though he loved his son, could never break the rules. He was forced to sentence his son to jail or to pay the bail. The boy was in deep debt as it was and obviously he could never pay the bail. As he was led down to the prison, however, another policeman came up.

"Wait! Let the kid go!"

"What happened?" the boy asked in astonishment.

"Your bail's been paid. You're free. The judge paid it for you."

The father had bailed his child out and paid his debts. If the boy had gone back to his father, admitted he had been wrong, and accepted the gift, he would have been free. But what if he chose to cling to his pride? If he refused what his father offered and preferred jail? He deserved it. He deserved jail. But his father was offering a way out. Which would he choose?

The policeman turned back with a huff. "I was asked to come down and offer this. Since you obviously don't want it, take him down and lock him up."

And no matter what the boy did, he was brought down to the prison and locked up. It was too late now.

Well, that's sort of the way I see it, anyway. There are a few things I didn't explain clearly, but you get the general picture.

Classic said:

I think Hitler reincarnated into headlice about 500 times before they upgraded him to chipmunk.

LOL! XD

[Tdyans]

TheComedian said:

*Cough*Hitler*Cough*

I really can't say I know much about Hitler, but I highly doubt he was a Christian in the true sense of the word. Calling yourself a Christian does not make you one.

[Deleted]

Tdyans said:

I really can't say I know much about Hitler, but I highly doubt he was a Christian in the true sense of the word. Calling yourself a Christian does not make you one.

That's what I don't understand.

Hitler believed in God and Jesus, yes? He believed in most of the 10 Commandments, yes?

The only thing "un-Christian" about him was that he killed non-Christians.

I can't stand how Christians automatically say "Oh, he wasn't a real Christian," every single time someone comes up with an example of a Christian that did bad things. That's completely against the idea of being able to repent sins, isn't it?

You say God will relieve you of your sins if you forgive him in Jesus's name (I was Christian for the first 13 or so years of my life, so I know how it works). Well, if Hitler asked God for forgiveness in Jesus's name, isn't that the Christian thing to do? What does it take for Christians to call others Christians?

Hitler may not have been a Catholic or Protestant Christian, but either way, he was still Christian.#nosmileys

[Oily]

Like Oily, I'm not trying to make this a debate or an argument. And no, I'm not seeing it from an atheist's position-- you're right. My point in posting here is to share my perspective as a Christian, especially since there seem to be so many misconceptions about it. If you disagree with that perspective, then that's your choice and I certainly couldn't and wouldn't force it onto you, but neither will that keep me from expressing it.

I would hate to stop you expressing it ^^ Religion really fascinates me. Your perspective is pretty interesting too, because I hear a lot of different perspectives, which may be why I have misconceptions – for other branches of Christianity, they're not misconceptions – they're considered to be truths.

I look at science as something to reinforce my faith, actually, rather than disprove. I love looking at parts of life and seeing how they work - and that's another thing that makes me marvel at God's work. Religion and science actually don't really contradict each other if you think about it carefully.

I also agree with what SLE said about science. I look at how perfectly all the laws of nature fit together and make things work the way they do and how even the minutest difference would mean that we weren't here, and it only reinforces my faith. I understand that not everyone sees it that way. Like I said, I'm expressing what I believe, and if you disagree, that's your choice.

Mm, I don't find science and religion to be mutually exclusive. There's still a lot of gaps that science hasn't filled. I'm not quite sure what I was trying to say, other than that I can believe in science *scratches head* But, yes, science and religion can work together pretty neatly.

This is a sentiment that I keep hearing here lately, basically summarized as: Why should God condemn someone just for not believing in Him? Why does He need people to believe in Him? To me, this is looking at the matter backwards. It seems to assume that we all deserve Heaven, and not believing in God condemns us. The truth is, we all deserve Hell, and belief saves us. And God doesn't need us to believe in Him. He could leave us to wallow down here alone, eventually die, and then get exactly what we deserve. But He doesn't, because He loves us.

I understand that, but I'm still not sure why we should all deserve hell. What did we do? Or was it just because we were born like that?

Well, that's sort of the way I see it, anyway. There are a few things I didn't explain clearly, but you get the general picture.

Yeah, I understand it.

My view would be similar, except the boy is blind. He's not aware he committed crimes, but he's been told he has. He's being told to choose between jail or going free, but he can't see either of his options, and he can't put blind faith in what he's being told. In fact, he's been told lots of different things as well.
Then replace the logical setting, with the person who's setting you free being something that can't be seen, or felt, or heard. And make the jail hypothetical. And make the laws the boy broke something that was written down thousands of years ago and been translated in and out of several languages, and been seen thousands of different ways by each little offshoot of religion, and could be used on different sides of an argument to back up each one ^^

And that's not even how I see it: I don't even see the choice ^^ But that's the kind of analogy you're looking at. Being asked to put blind faith in something.

[Crystal]

Oily said:

I understand that, but I'm still not sure why we should all deserve hell. What did we do? Or was it just because we were born like that?

This is how I see it - God's perfect. He's never done anything wrong. Paradise is for the perfect, and that's how we were made originally - to be totally innocent, perfect. But we all fallen - we've all done something wrong, I'm sure YOU have, lying, cheating, etc.

Eh, I probably didn't explain it that well.

As for the judge example, well yeah. It's all faith. Faith in a God. Faith in heaven and hell and angels and sin and redemption and all those big churchy words. Faith in a evolutionary theory that's never been proved and is accepted simply because it's the only alternative (I've always found it harder to believe in evolution than creation, because according to it, in a couple millennia we'd all be angels). Faith in mathematical concepts that I can't understand but I accept because I've been taught they're right *glances pointedly at her Additional Maths book* Faith in my History Book, and what it tells me, despite that scientists learnt a language like hieroglyphs (sorry, can't spell that in English) from nothing and what they tell us could be all wrong for all we know. Faith that weird sea creatures exist in the Marina Trench (did I spell it right?) even though I've never even seen one. It's all faith. Varying degrees of it.

[Tdyans]

TheComedian said:

That's what I don't understand.

Hitler believed in God and Jesus, yes? He believed in most of the 10 Commandments, yes?

Please notice that I preceded my statement with: "I really can't say I know much about Hitler". I have never extensively studied whatever he supposedly believed, so no, I didn't take those things that you state there as a given when I said that. That's precisely why I qualified what I said with the admittance that my knowledge on the matter is limited.

Anyway, I decided to look it up and get some more information today. My search yielded some pretty obviously biased sites that stated point blank "Hitler was a Christian." I'll look at the evidence that they presented, leaving aside their interpretations of it. First they said that Hitler came from a Catholic family and went to Catholic school. Okay. But what your parents believe or where you go to school do not make you a Christian. After that they gave a lot of quotes from Mein Kampf in which he mentions God and Christ and quoted (and also deliberately misquoted) Bible verses. Okay again. I won't deny that the man obviously had an education and upbringing that exposed him to these things. I also won't deny that many atrocities have been committed in this world by people saying, and yes, believing, that they were doing God's will. But that doesn't make it so.

One of these sites also stated that Hitler used the word "Christian" synonymously with German/Aryan, and that Aryans were descended from Adam and Eve, (and that Christ was Aryan instead of Jewish), while Jews and the other groups he dislike evolved from apes. This seems to indicate to me that he believed he was born Christian. All I see in the writings that I saw on those web sites, regardless of whether he mentioned God or not, was a sense of superiority and entitlement instead of the humility and repentance that would indicate to me that he truly had acknowledged that he was a sinner, asked for forgiveness and submitted himself to Christ as Lord.

I can't stand how Christians automatically say "Oh, he wasn't a real Christian," every single time someone comes up with an example of a Christian that did bad things. That's completely against the idea of being able to repent sins, isn't it?

You can't stand that Christians do that? Well, I'm not too fond myself of people throwing out "What about Hitler?" as some sort of trump card against Christianity. If you want an example of a Christian who does bad things, I'll happily loan you myself. That's not my objection. Nor am I saying that it would be beyond God's power to forgive Hitler if he ever truly repented and asked for forgiveness in Christ. Notice again what I said-- not that I knew Hitler was not a Christian, but that I highly doubted it. The only one who knows for sure is God, and for all I know, I could meet Hitler in Heaven, as abhorrent as that may seem to us.

But as far as knowing that someone is truly a Christian, I can't state it with the same certainty that the creators of those web sites that I mentioned above seem to have. The only evidence we have is someone's testimony and their actions. As I said, I saw nowhere in those quotes that I read over where Hitler said something that convinced me that at some point in his life, he had recognized that he was a sinner and placed his faith in Christ to forgive him. He threw around mentions of God and Christ a lot in his explanation of his view of the world and yes, he may have really believed that, but again, that doesn't mean he believed what is true or that he was truly a Christian. His actions certainly don't bear out that conclusion for me either, and as they say, actions speak louder than words. That's not to say that Christians never do anything wrong-- certainly not. But as I've said, though goodness doesn't save you, there should be some evidence in your life of your faith. If Hitler was a Christian, he was seriously misled. So to answer your question, yes, if Hitler sincerely asked God for forgiveness in Jesus' name, then he was a Christian. But I see no evidence in his life that he ever really made that decision instead of just twisting God's word and others' beliefs (whether intentionally or not) for his own pride and ambitions.

I hope these many words help to better explain my very short statement. I didn't mean to sound contradictory when I said it, but apparently I did.

You say God will relieve you of your sins if you forgive him in Jesus's name

I'm assuming that was a typo or just poor phrasing, but to clarify, "if you forgive him" should be "if you ask for forgiveness".

(I was Christian for the first 13 or so years of my life, so I know how it works).

I don't mean to offend, but you cannot be a Christian for the first however many years of your life. You may be raised in a Christian home and go to church, etc. so that you have a basic knowledge of the tenets of Christianity, and maybe that's all you meant. But becoming a Christian involves a conscious choice, so you cannot be one from the time you're born. And before anyone asks, no, that doesn't mean that babies go to Hell if they die.

[Deleted]

Tdyans said:

Please notice that I preceded my statement with: "I really can't say I know much about Hitler". I have never extensively studied whatever he supposedly believed, so no, I didn't take those things that you state there as a given when I said that. That's precisely why I qualified what I said with the admittance that my knowledge on the matter is limited.

Anyway, I decided to look it up and get some more information today. My search yielded some pretty obviously biased sites that stated point blank "Hitler was a Christian." I'll look at the evidence that they presented, leaving aside their interpretations of it. First they said that Hitler came from a Catholic family and went to Catholic school. Okay. But what your parents believe or where you go to school do not make you a Christian. After that they gave a lot of quotes from Mein Kampf in which he mentions God and Christ and quoted (and also deliberately misquoted) Bible verses. Okay again. I won't deny that the man obviously had an education and upbringing that exposed him to these things. I also won't deny that many atrocities have been committed in this world by people saying, and yes, believing, that they were doing God's will. But that doesn't make it so.

One of these sites also stated that Hitler used the word "Christian" synonymously with German/Aryan, and that Aryans were descended from Adam and Eve, (and that Christ was Aryan instead of Jewish), while Jews and the other groups he dislike evolved from apes. This seems to indicate to me that he believed he was born Christian. All I see in the writings that I saw on those web sites, regardless of whether he mentioned God or not, was a sense of superiority and entitlement instead of the humility and repentance that would indicate to me that he truly had acknowledged that he was a sinner, asked for forgiveness and submitted himself to Christ as Lord.


You can't stand that Christians do that? Well, I'm not too fond myself of people throwing out "What about Hitler?" as some sort of trump card against Christianity. If you want an example of a Christian who does bad things, I'll happily loan you myself. That's not my objection. Nor am I saying that it would be beyond God's power to forgive Hitler if he ever truly repented and asked for forgiveness in Christ. Notice again what I said-- not that I knew Hitler was not a Christian, but that I highly doubted it. The only one who knows for sure is God, and for all I know, I could meet Hitler in Heaven, as abhorrent as that may seem to us.

But as far as knowing that someone is truly a Christian, I can't state it with the same certainty that the creators of those web sites that I mentioned above seem to have. The only evidence we have is someone's testimony and their actions. As I said, I saw nowhere in those quotes that I read over where Hitler said something that convinced me that at some point in his life, he had recognized that he was a sinner and placed his faith in Christ to forgive him. He threw around mentions of God and Christ a lot in his explanation of his view of the world and yes, he may have really believed that, but again, that doesn't mean he believed what is true or that he was truly a Christian. His actions certainly don't bear out that conclusion for me either, and as they say, actions speak louder than words. That's not to say that Christians never do anything wrong-- certainly not. But as I've said, though goodness doesn't save you, there should be some evidence in your life of your faith. If Hitler was a Christian, he was seriously misled. So to answer your question, yes, if Hitler sincerely asked God for forgiveness in Jesus' name, then he was a Christian. But I see no evidence in his life that he ever really made that decision instead of just twisting God's word and others' beliefs (whether intentionally or not) for his own pride and ambitions.

I hope these many words help to better explain my very short statement. I didn't mean to sound contradictory when I said it, but apparently I did.


I'm assuming that was a typo or just poor phrasing, but to clarify, "if you forgive him" should be "if you ask for forgiveness".


I don't mean to offend, but you cannot be a Christian for the first however many years of your life. You may be raised in a Christian home and go to church, etc. so that you have a basic knowledge of the tenets of Christianity, and maybe that's all you meant. But becoming a Christian involves a conscious choice, so you cannot be one from the time you're born. And before anyone asks, no, that doesn't mean that babies go to Hell if they die.

You have a lot of good points.

I now see that I should stop posting on religion threads, because all I can do is wreak havoc.

[Oily]

Tablet-ted said:

As for the judge example, well yeah. It's all faith. Faith in a God. Faith in heaven and hell and angels and sin and redemption and all those big churchy words. Faith in a evolutionary theory that's never been proved and is accepted simply because it's the only alternative (I've always found it harder to believe in evolution than creation, because according to it, in a couple millennia we'd all be angels). Faith in mathematical concepts that I can't understand but I accept because I've been taught they're right *glances pointedly at her Additional Maths book* Faith in my History Book, and what it tells me, despite that scientists learnt a language like hieroglyphs (sorry, can't spell that in English) from nothing and what they tell us could be all wrong for all we know. Faith that weird sea creatures exist in the Marina Trench (did I spell it right?) even though I've never even seen one. It's all faith. Varying degrees of it.

I believe hieroglyphics were learnt from the Rosetta Stone - kind of like code cracking. I watch programmes on deep sea creatures. And I don't see how evolution leads us to being angels - for a start, we'd have to have super light bones like birds do to fly.
I'm just a doubting kind of person ^^

Tdyans said:

You can't stand that Christians do that? Well, I'm not too fond myself of people throwing out "What about Hitler?" as some sort of trump card against Christianity. If you want an example of a Christian who does bad things, I'll happily loan you myself.

No, I'm not fond of either :/ I don't like people assuming that being Christian means you don't kill anyone and are automatically nice, but neither do I like people assuming that because Hitler might have been a Christian, it throws the whole faith into shadow.
From what I learnt of History, Hitler had a Nazified church – one that sort of worshipped Hitler along with God, and believed that the Aryans were God's chosen people etc etc.

Tdyans said:

I don't mean to offend, but you cannot be a Christian for the first however many years of your life. You may be raised in a Christian home and go to church, etc. so that you have a basic knowledge of the tenets of Christianity, and maybe that's all you meant. But becoming a Christian involves a conscious choice, so you cannot be one from the time you're born. And before anyone asks, no, that doesn't mean that babies go to Hell if they die.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but you're a Baptist, yes? And isn't one of your beliefs that people have to have adult baptism and kind of make a choice, so that babies are christened?
For other people, it's possible to be a Christian for only a while. That's Church of England Christianity ^^ A lot of babies get christened, and go to faith schools, and say prayers and sing hymns, and then just kind of fade out of religion. I went to a religious school and said prayers etc etc – I think it's because everyone did. Then I just realised I didn't particularly believe. So I technically was Christian for a while, though kind of mindlessly ^^ (I've always thought adult baptism made more sense. Or possibly confirmation, in the Catholic church, where you actually make a choice to carry on and confirm your beliefs.)

[Crystal]

Oily said:

I believe hieroglyphics were learnt from the Rosetta Stone - kind of like code cracking. I watch programmes on deep sea creatures. And I don't see how evolution leads us to being angels - for a start, we'd have to have super light bones like birds do to fly.
I'm just a doubting kind of person ^^

But that's the thing.

If we evolved from a single-celled thingyjig.... it's even more impossible than for our bones to become lighter... I mean... well, you get the idea. If something like an amoeba or a fish could, according to the evolution theory, over time turn into man... what's stopping man from turning into a bird? I mean, an amoeba is TOTALLY different from us, a bird has at least a few resemblances. I'm talking from the evolutionary point of view here. That's what I don't understand about it. For that matter, show me the evidence of the Missing Link.

If you can believe in evolution, why not in God? It just never made sense to me....

As for watching programmes - well, I listen to people I know and trust tell me about how God talked or touched their lives. And for me it's more real than a TV programme.

You're no more doubting than I am, Oily... Just that I put my doubts one way and accept another, and you do the opposite.

Oily said:

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but you're a Baptist, yes? And isn't one of your beliefs that people have to have adult baptism and kind of make a choice, so that babies are christened?
For other people, it's possible to be a Christian for only a while. That's Church of England Christianity ^^ A lot of babies get christened, and go to faith schools, and say prayers and sing hymns, and then just kind of fade out of religion. I went to a religious school and said prayers etc etc – I think it's because everyone did. Then I just realised I didn't particularly believe. So I technically was Christian for a while, though kind of mindlessly ^^ (I've always thought adult baptism made more sense. Or possibly confirmation, in the Catholic church, where you actually make a choice to carry on and confirm your beliefs.)

As for Hitler, I don't know anything about him, so I just won't say anything...

Uh... what does baptism have to do with it? *is confused* I'm a Baptist - for me it's just symbolic, a sign that you honestly believe in God. I was baptised when I was twelve but it's a choice, you can do it anytime you want.

The odd thing with me was that when I was a child I was kind of mindless, just followed along. But when I grew up I got closer to religion, it began to mean something much more to me other than stories and playing games in Sunday School. Before that I just prayed without knowing, and then I understood more and got closer.

And yeah, it is possible to be Christian for only a while... it's called conversion, my friend... ^^

[Tdyans]

I now see that I should stop posting on religion threads, because all I can do is wreak havoc.

*looks around* I don't see any havoc. Unless you just mean all those words up there. Hey, you made me go look stuff up-- that's a good thing.

Oily said:

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but you're a Baptist, yes? And isn't one of your beliefs that people have to have adult baptism and kind of make a choice, so that babies are christened?

Like Crystal, I'm not quite sure what baptism has to do with what I said, as I don't believe that baptism saves you. But to clarify what I believe, babies in our church are not baptized or christened. We do a baby dedication ceremony instead, in which the parents simply pledge to try to raise their child for God basically. You may be raised in a Christian environment and learn everything about the Christian religion, but you are not technically a Christian until you make a conscious choice to accept Christ as your Lord and Savior. Baptism is something that is done after you have made that decision. It's a public and symbolic proclomation of what you believe. Though it's something that God wants us to do, it is not a requirement for salvation-- only a symbol of it. So it's "adult" baptism in the sense that only people old enough to make that decision can do it, but that doesn't discount children, so it's not "adult" in the strictest sense.

So I'll state my little disclaimer again that what I said in my other post is what I believe, and I realize that some may disagree, which is their choice. And that's probably how others can so easily proclaim that Hitler was a Christian just because he went to Catholic school, while I require more convincing to believe that he was a Christian by what I hold to be the true definition of the word. So I'll say again that I'm sorry if I've offended anyone.

You're no more doubting than I am, Oily... Just that I put my doubts one way and accept another, and you do the opposite.

Well put.