|
|
Post by Oily on Aug 14, 2004 16:22:27 GMT -5
One of the things that..well, not led me to Christianity, but..I guess just strengthed my belief in it was a theory called Pascal's Wager. Basically, a long time ago, this guy named Pascal basically said that if God exists, he'd better believe in Him. If he doesn't, he's in trouble. If He doesn't exist, then it doesn't hurt to believe in Him while he's alive, so he might as well believe. Yeah, Terry Pratchett did a parody of that. I could quote it but I'm tired... Basically, as I explained on another thread, the only God I would want to believe in is one that didn't mind I wouldn't believe. Ie - I don't believe in a god. If I died and found out a god exists, they should show compassion, ask me to regret a few sins maybe, and let me into heaven. If I die and no god exists, I lost nothing. If I die, a god exists and it's pretty tinkled off at not being believing in - well, I wouldn't want to believe in a god like that anyways. Either way, I win, I win or I spend an eternity in a burning hell, thanking my lucky stars I didn't believe, and taking tea with Julius Caesar and Einstein  |
|
|
|
Post by Stal on Aug 14, 2004 16:57:14 GMT -5
Yeah, Terry Pratchett did a parody of that. I could quote it but I'm tired... Basically, as I explained on another thread, the only God I would want to believe in is one that didn't mind I wouldn't believe. Ie - I don't believe in a god. If I died and found out a god exists, they should show compassion, ask me to regret a few sins maybe, and let me into heaven. If I die and no god exists, I lost nothing. If I die, a god exists and it's pretty tinkleed off at not being believing in - well, I wouldn't want to believe in a god like that anyways. Either way, I win, I win or I spend an eternity in a burning hell, thanking my lucky stars I didn't believe, and taking tea with Julius Caesar and Einstein Actually, I do believe Einstein was a christian. One of his favorite things to say about Quantum Mechanics was "God does not throw dice." (Doubtful any of you non-science/quantum nerds will understand that). But anyway Oily, in my opinion and religion, you're right. Well, within reason. Seeing as how we don't believe in heaven/hell but a time, after the resurrections, in which all will come to his kingdom and a very few will end up in the lake of fire. But it's not for not believing in him... So don't think all religions and versions of Christianity are like that. |
|
|
|
Post by Oily on Aug 15, 2004 17:45:09 GMT -5
Actually, I do believe Einstein was a christian. One of his favorite things to say about Quantum Mechanics was "God does not throw dice." (Doubtful any of you non-science/quantum nerds will understand that). But anyway Oily, in my opinion and religion, you're right. Well, within reason. Seeing as how we don't believe in heaven/hell but a time, after the resurrections, in which all will come to his kingdom and a very few will end up in the lake of fire. But it's not for not believing in him... So don't think all religions and versions of Christianity are like that. Oh no, I don't! One of my friends is a Christian, and her mum is a vicar. But she has a philosophy of as long as you say you're sorry for all your sins, you can go into Heaven. I love her version of religion. I love the concepts of love and good deeds that reside within it, at its core. If I believed, I would believe like that. I researched the Einstein thing and apparently he had a personal view of a god, but still described himself as atheist. Kind of odd, and it confused me. But I reckoned if the kind of god I described existed, it would throw him into burning lakes for not believing explicitly So I could share tea with him then *nods* |
|
|
|
Post by sollunaestrella on Aug 16, 2004 19:42:37 GMT -5
With no proof of a god's existence, I can't see how one exists. But since there's no proof that one doesn't exist, you believe one does. But the contradiction of that (for me personally, at least) is that I see proof of God's existence everywhere. I look at trees and wonder - if there is not a God, could this be here? Could any form of life exist without God, including my dog - or the porcupine that crawled across my backyard the other day - or myself? Or even something as regular and simple as a sunset or rain or snowfall. Obviously, those are scientifically explicable. But could science exist without a God? Who decided that the gravitational constant of the entire universe is .000000000066742 (Nm 2)/kg 2? Who created the scientific possibility of computers or robots or cloning? Who decided what clouds were? How could these things just happen? I've heard before that if you could shrink the Earth into the size of a marble, it would be a more perfect sphere that man has ever been able to manufacture, even with Mariana's Trench and Mount Everest and everything else in between. Can randomnity produce something like that? Well, yes, but is it very likely? Can randomnity produce life? I suppose maybe, but if you sit back and think about the fact that you have life - can you even fathom what life is, much less how such an indefinable, incredible miracle crawled out of a bunch of slime billions of years ago? Furthermore, I have my proof from other sources - such as my belief in Jesus as the Savior of the world. But I suppose I shouldn't go into that now. I'm sorry to inflict on you my ramble - and this ramble doesn't convey half my thoughts about God and the world. I just - I just I look at the world and I can't help but believe in God. I can't understand the viewpoint of an atheist to the full extent - although I try. Through the world, God is too real for me to understand His non-existence. |
|
|
|
Post by irishdragonlord on Aug 23, 2004 15:20:50 GMT -5
Yeah, Terry Pratchett did a parody of that. I could quote it but I'm tired... Basically, as I explained on another thread, the only God I would want to believe in is one that didn't mind I wouldn't believe. Ie - I don't believe in a god. If I died and found out a god exists, they should show compassion, ask me to regret a few sins maybe, and let me into heaven. If I die and no god exists, I lost nothing. If I die, a god exists and it's pretty tinkleed off at not being believing in - well, I wouldn't want to believe in a god like that anyways. Either way, I win, I win or I spend an eternity in a burning hell, thanking my lucky stars I didn't believe, and taking tea with Julius Caesar and Einstein The one trouble I have with that is this: Why on earth should God let you into heaven if you hated him, argued he was non-existent, and refused to believe in him? (Not that you do - I'm just exaggerating that kind of position greatly) Would YOU let a whiny, disobedient, mean brat into a candy store? Hope not. And I would never want to believe in a God like the one you would want to - one who doesn't care about you. If he doesn't care what you do, or how you act, I would hate to believe in it. The only God that would not care you disobeyed him and rejected him is the one that doesn't care about you. And God does show compassion - He just says you need to repent and be sorry for what you've done in the allotted time . You don't get a test and then take it when time's up and the teacher wants the whole thing. If you have an hour for the test, use it wisely, don't wait until it's too late. My late 2 pennies. ;D |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2004 21:11:53 GMT -5
But the contradiction of that (for me personally, at least) is that I see proof of God's existence everywhere. I look at trees and wonder - if there is not a God, could this be here? Could any form of life exist without God, including my dog - or the porcupine that crawled across my backyard the other day - or myself? Or even something as regular and simple as a sunset or rain or snowfall. Obviously, those are scientifically explicable. But could science exist without a God? Who decided that the gravitational constant of the entire universe is .000000000066742 (Nm 2)/kg 2? Who created the scientific possibility of computers or robots or cloning? Who decided what clouds were? How could these things just happen? I've heard before that if you could shrink the Earth into the size of a marble, it would be a more perfect sphere that man has ever been able to manufacture, even with Mariana's Trench and Mount Everest and everything else in between. Can randomnity produce something like that? Well, yes, but is it very likely? Can randomnity produce life? I suppose maybe, but if you sit back and think about the fact that you have life - can you even fathom what life is, much less how such an indefinable, incredible miracle crawled out of a bunch of slime billions of years ago? Furthermore, I have my proof from other sources - such as my belief in Jesus as the Savior of the world. But I suppose I shouldn't go into that now. I'm sorry to inflict on you my ramble - and this ramble doesn't convey half my thoughts about God and the world. I just - I just I look at the world and I can't help but believe in God. I can't understand the viewpoint of an atheist to the full extent - although I try. Through the world, God is too real for me to understand His non-existence. Personally, I don't see how any of those things were created randomly. They were created from greater factors. Why is the Earth such a great sphere? Gravity. Revolution. Rotation. Those three things caused it to form nicely, over the years. I understand how you see God as the best way to explain things. But to me, that's just taking the easy way out. It's exactly what the ancient Greeks and Romans did. If there was anything they couldn't explain, they said there was a god or goddess that was in charge of it. However, I do believe myself to be an agnostic. I don't believe anything is currently controlled by a god or goddess, but I do believe that it's possible that one created the universe. More specifically, I'm an Agnostic Deist. If a god(dess) does/did exist, then (s)he only created the clock, and then let it tick onward. |
|
|
|
Post by Oily on Aug 24, 2004 14:51:16 GMT -5
But the contradiction of that (for me personally, at least) is that I see proof of God's existence everywhere. ... I'm sorry to inflict on you my ramble - and this ramble doesn't convey half my thoughts about God and the world. I just - I just I look at the world and I can't help but believe in God. I can't understand the viewpoint of an atheist to the full extent - although I try. Through the world, God is too real for me to understand His non-existence. For me, that is a true miracle. That something so random, can produce all this. I look at it every day and love it. But it proves nothing for me ^^ The thing is, I look at the world and I see it. I wonder why the trees grow up, and it's because they do. I see life everywhere, but I see no god in it. And, to put it simply, why do bad things happen? And none of the answers I've ever heard have satisfied me on that. I would let a whiny, disobedient brat into a candy store because as shopkeeper, it is not my place to decide what customers to allow in  My answer actually has no relevance to this argument at all, especially since it would be totally the opposite The god I would believe in is one that cares so deeply, it would love you no matter what you do. And it's not about not caring at all. A god that noticed how you rejected and disobeyed it and yet still picked you up and loved you and asked you to repent. Like parents, who you hate, you spurn, you curse and run from – and then they pick you out of the gutter and take you in. Forgiveness, compassion, love. That is the meaning of a god to me. I will be sorry at the end of my life for any hurt I have caused, anything wrong I have done. I will repent, to myself, within my allotted time. I just won't believe. When a god who has never shown me any proof of existing, never had a hand in my life, never tried to reach out to me is upset when I don't believe? Of course, many believe a god reaches out to you every day and touches you in some way. But I need evidence. I am a mistrusting person – that's the way god made me But what is this when a good person should be denied an entrance into a paradise, because they just had different beliefs? In which case, being good means nothing at all. I wouldn't want to believe in a god like that, that condemns good along with bad, because of who they are. |
|
|
|
Post by Tdyans on Aug 24, 2004 20:41:04 GMT -5
The god I would believe in is one that cares so deeply, it would love you no matter what you do. And it's not about not caring at all. A god that noticed how you rejected and disobeyed it and yet still picked you up and loved you and asked you to repent. Like parents, who you hate, you spurn, you curse and run from – and then they pick you out of the gutter and take you in. Forgiveness, compassion, love. That is the meaning of a god to me. But here's the thing: that is a pretty accurate picture of God. With one addition to the metaphor: If that child refuses to repent (your word, not mine) and to accept the forgiveness that the parents are offering, then there's nothing more that the parents can do. They still love him and still show love to him, and that offer of forgiveness is always there, but they can't force him to come back to them and accept it. It's the same with God. He's given us free will, and if we choose to stay out of his forgiveness, he's not going to force it onto us. It's a free gift, but it's up to us whether we want to accept it or not. I know you were saying this hypothetically as someone who doesn't really believe in Heaven or Hell anyway, but just for the sake of discussion, let's look at the idea that good people and bad people should not get the same result (whether condemnation or blessing). Good people go to heaven and bad people go to hell, right? Well, first of all, that seems to contradict your earlier wish that God would love you "no matter what you do." Second, how exactly do you determine who are the "good people" and who are the "bad people"? Where do you draw the line between a person who was mostly good and one who's apparently unforgivably bad? Is there a certain number of good or bad things you need to do in order to qualify for one side or the other? Is there a scale measuring the good against the bad? Because if there is, I'd be worried myself. Our human concept of "good" and "bad" are all relative, but God is all about absolutes. There's no way we could live up to His goodness-- it would be impossible. If He expected us to do that, then that would be the ultimate unfairness. Instead of unfairly expecting that from us, He's offered us a chance that we can't reach by our own efforts. And he does those parents in our metaphor one better. He gave His son to suffer and die to atone for our sins, so that our sins would be not just forgiven, but erased, washed clean. It's not belonging to a certain religion or denomination or doing certain things that saves us-- it is simply accepting that gift by faith. That doesn't mean that doing good is meaningless. We're still supposed to do good and love others in light of the amazing love that was shown to us-- that we didn't deserve. But, thankfully in my opinion, we are not expected to rely on whatever good we're capable of as imperfect human beings to get us to heaven. "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:8 |
|
|
|
Post by Crystal on Aug 25, 2004 0:34:29 GMT -5
For me, that is a true miracle. That something so random, can produce all this. I look at it every day and love it. But it proves nothing for me ^^ The thing is, I look at the world and I see it. I wonder why the trees grow up, and it's because they do. I see life everywhere, but I see no god in it. And, to put it simply, why do bad things happen? And none of the answers I've ever heard have satisfied me on that. I look at the world and I see it with life everywhere. And I wonder, how is it possible that this beauty, this life, come about because of a chemical reaction and a lightning strike? How is it possible that we think, we talk, we feel, we love, because of random chemicals and electricity? Taking your own words, prove it. Take chemicals. Take electricity. Scientists can provide that. And make me something that lives, even an amoeba or a bacteria. Why do bad things happen? Why did Lucifer fall from heaven? Why is it that everybody must die? It's a battle - and we're all up choosing sides. Like parents, you curse at, you spit at, you run from and turn your back on - still they offer you that chance to come back. But what happens when they come to you, asking you to come back, and you spit once more in their faces? Free will, like Tdyans said. To choose whether or not you want to accept or to reject. I'm sure Hitler did something good in his life. I'm sure you did something bad in yours. How's God to judge between you then? Would you call me a good person? I wouldn't. And I wonder if you'll still have free will to choose once you die. God's offering you that choice. Why are you throwing it in his face? I guess you do need evidence, at that. Many people do not believe unless they see evidence. I guess Tdyans said it best. |
|
|
|
Post by mushroom on Aug 25, 2004 21:54:57 GMT -5
If any kind of deity wanted my attention, it would be able to attract it--a divine rearrangement of the stars into the Lord's Prayer would be plenty of evidence for me and, presumably, most people on Earth. (It would not be restraining my free will to give me all the information I need to make a decision.) Since no god has done so, either any god that exists doesn't care whether or not I know it exists, a god exists and does care but is not giving me a fair chance, or no god exists. The last seems most reasonable to me.
*shrugs* It can be argued that there is evidence for the existence of a or any particular deity, but since there are many who aren't convinced by this evidence, it's apparently not convincing enough; an all-powerful, all-knowing being could do better.
And if Mom were to toss me into a lake of fire because I left home, I'd have a very good reason to leave home--such a parent is the reason social workers exist. You're ignoring the consequence of disbelief--eternal suffering, according to Revelations, not just a lonely life. You're also misunderstanding--perhaps deliberately--an atheist's position. Atheists don't deliberately choose to reject your god's forgiveness. They just don't believe it exists. If a mother puts a child up for adoption, and then one day decides that if the child doesn't come find her in the next two days, the child is ungrateful and hates her, without ever speaking to the child or even letting the child know she exists, the child has not deliberately chosen to reject its mother. That's a more accurate analogy of the situation.
|
|
|
|
Post by Ikkin on Aug 25, 2004 22:33:13 GMT -5
I really shouldn't get into this argument, 'cause I know I'll get stuck, but, there's just one thing I wanted to say.
The Lake of Fire is not necesarily a literal place (as in, literal fire) Fire speaks of judgement, and interpreting the fire as judgement makes more sense. I've heard it interpreted more as an eternal separation than actual, literal fire.
Just some food for thought...
|
|
|
|
Post by Stal on Aug 25, 2004 23:22:42 GMT -5
If any kind of deity wanted my attention, it would be able to attract it--a divine rearrangement of the stars into the Lord's Prayer would be plenty of evidence for me and, presumably, most people on Earth. (It would not be restraining my free will to give me all the information I need to make a decision.) Since no god has done so, either any god that exists doesn't care whether or not I know it exists, a god exists and does care but is not giving me a fair chance, or no god exists. The last seems most reasonable to me. *shrugs* It can be argued that there is evidence for the existence of a or any particular deity, but since there are many who aren't convinced by this evidence, it's apparently not convincing enough; an all-powerful, all-knowing being could do better. And if Mom were to toss me into a lake of fire because I left home, I'd have a very good reason to leave home--such a parent is the reason social workers exist. You're ignoring the consequence of disbelief--eternal suffering, according to Revelations, not just a lonely life. You're also misunderstanding--perhaps deliberately--an atheist's position. Atheists don't deliberately choose to reject your god's forgiveness. They just don't believe it exists. If a mother puts a child up for adoption, and then one day decides that if the child doesn't come find her in the next two days, the child is ungrateful and hates her, without ever speaking to the child or even letting the child know she exists, the child has not deliberately chosen to reject its mother. That's a more accurate analogy of the situation. Ah but that's just it. God hasn't abandoned us. His word and everything is out there. You just have to start hearing and answer. That's where you're missing our perspective. You say it as if He's just totally abandoned, while we say the reverse. |
|
|
|
Post by mushroom on Aug 25, 2004 23:38:01 GMT -5
I really shouldn't get into this argument, 'cause I know I'll get stuck, but, there's just one thing I wanted to say. The Lake of Fire is not necesarily a literal place (as in, literal fire) Fire speaks of judgement, and interpreting the fire as judgement makes more sense. I've heard it interpreted more as an eternal separation than actual, literal fire. Just some food for thought... Yes, I've heard that before. If so, why bother with Christianity at all? I'm quite happy as I am, godless as I may be, and there are very interesting non-Christians to share my fate with; if the only difference it makes to my eternal soul is whether or not I end up in Jesus's clique, I'd rather follow my own conscience and reason than ignore them both in favor of any religion, even if I had irrefutable proof that Jesus was the Son of God and all that. Ah but that's just it. God hasn't abandoned us. His word and everything is out there. You just have to start hearing and answer. That's where you're missing our perspective. You say it as if He's just totally abandoned, while we say the reverse. *shrugs* If any deity is still interfering, it certainly is minimalist in its interactions with the universe--any miracles it's performed lately haven't been very miraculous So, that goes back to my previous argument: no deities care to attract our attention, no deities are doing a very good job attracting our attention, or no deities exist. |
|
|
|
Post by Stal on Aug 26, 2004 0:25:42 GMT -5
Yes, I've heard that before. If so, why bother with Christianity at all? I'm quite happy as I am, godless as I may be, and there are very interesting non-Christians to share my fate with; if the only difference it makes to my eternal soul is whether or not I end up in Jesus's clique, I'd rather follow my own conscience and reason than ignore them both in favor of any religion, even if I had irrefutable proof that Jesus was the Son of God and all that. *shrugs* If any deity is still interfering, it certainly is minimalist in its interactions with the universe--any miracles it's performed lately haven't been very miraculous So, that goes back to my previous argument: no deities care to attract our attention, no deities are doing a very good job attracting our attention, or no deities exist. Just wait. God has been giving a quite "hands off" approach to the world in general. Letting them do what they want and setting things up for the return of Christ. Christ will come back. Prophecies will be fulfilled all throughout this time, and the attention your talking about will be there. Why is he doing it this way? Only God knows. And to be honest your argument is just so unique and different...but it doesn't hold water. |
|
|
|
Post by mushroom on Aug 26, 2004 1:30:58 GMT -5
Just wait. God has been giving a quite "hands off" approach to the world in general. Letting them do what they want and setting things up for the return of Christ. Christ will come back. Prophecies will be fulfilled all throughout this time, and the attention your talking about will be there. Why is he doing it this way? Only God knows. And to be honest your argument is just so unique and different...but it doesn't hold water. What specific flaws do you see in it? For that matter, are you talking about the "why bother" or the "attracting attention" bit? *shrugs* If someday your god does try and attract my attention, my argument won't be valid any more. I do have to wonder why some people are going to be given more proof than others, though--it certainly doesn't seem fair. (By the way, it could be three or four days--Sunday night--before I can respond to anything further. Sorry!) |
|
My answer actually has no relevance to this argument at all, especially since it would be totally the opposite 
