The Da Vinci Code

[irishdragonlord]

Now, this isn't so much about the book itself, as the entire theory.

I have never read the book - but I did see a special on it last night.

Quite frankly, I find it far too full of impossible connections to be true.

For one thing, in the painting the Last Supper - it was pointed out that Mary Magdalene (as I shall assume the person to be) leaning from Jesus formed a "V", a sign of women.

Then again, she was also leaning her body as far as she possibly could from him, wasn't she?

I also think the belief that they were so close aroused the idea they were in a relationship makes no sense. Of all Jesus' followers, John was closest. Does that make him gay?

Anyone else's ideas?

[Stal]

While I know little about this to begin with...

I'm just going to ask, would you die for a lie?

John, Peter, Paul, the rest of the Apostles. All of them have proven to have been alive throughout history. You take a look at the history of the church all the way from the time of the Crucifixion to the Council of Nycea and so on and so forth there's historical evidence and backing that these people existed and were real.

Something that not many people deny anyway.

So. All of the apostles, except for John (exiled to an island where the Book of Revelation was written), were martyred in some form or another. They lived with Jesus for years. Witnessed many of his miracles, and his death and ressurection.

But on the other hand, if his ressurection was all a hoax...something they'd done to further a religion...would they have died for it? Died for a total lie that they made when they could've renounced and saved their lives?

I think not.

[Crystal]

Never read the book, but one of my (Christian) friends has read it. I never got around to asking her what it was about.

[Deleted]

Finally, a debate I may be able to lend a valid opinion to. I'm starting to get into Apologetics.

But on the other hand, if his ressurection was all a hoax...something they'd done to further a religion...would they have died for it? Died for a total lie that they made when they could've renounced and saved their lives?

I'll continue on this...

Some people say the disciples made it up. But how true does it sound, 11 guys (excluding Judas, since he hanged himself) sitting around one day and suddenly going "Hey! Let's make up a religion! One where we all die in the end!" You wouldn't be willing to be mocked, humiliated, tortured, and killed for something you and your buddies made up.

And on the resurrection, some people say it was a hoax, and that the disciples moved the body. How would this be possible? Did they move the two-story stone from in front of the tomb with 11 men, although it took 30 guards to move the stone in place? Then manage to sneak past the guards, grab the body, and make their way into town with it without anyone seeing them or leaving behind any footprints?

Another theory is that Christ wasn't really dead, just stunned, and he walked out of the tomb. This is also unlikely, as he would've had to unwrap himself from the bandages he was covered with, walk to the front of the tomb, and although he had been suffering from hermatidrosis (When you are so filled with passion/stress/intensity that your blood vessels burst next to your sweat glands and you literally sweat blood.) which leaves your skin twice as sensitive for days afterwards, during which in that time he was beaten beyond recognition, suffocated on the cross, and had a spear through his heart and lungs, he somehow manage the super human strength to move a two-story stone by himself and walk out without disturbing the guards or leaving behind any footprints or blood.

If you ask me, it takes more faith to believe those last few stories than it does to believe he really was God and just rose from the dead.

I hope I didn't offend anyone or get too off-topic. I get really intense when it comes to things like this.

[Retired Blub]

I definitely plan on reading it soon. So much controversy and I don't know why!

[mushroom]

I'm not going to get into this debate. I just want to point out a couple of things:

People die for other religions, too--sometimes at the hands of Christians.

If it's silly to think that the claims about Jesus were invented, why is it not silly to think that the claims about Mohammed or the Buddha or the oracle at Delphi were invented?

If Jesus did exist, the Bible may still not be inerrant or even generally accurate. George Washington existed, but he didn't chop down that cherry tree.

I'm not going to post anything further, whether or not my post is ripped to shreds. If you're strongly religious, no debate will convince you otherwise. If you're strongly irreligious, the same goes for you. If you're not certain, it's not hard to find other sites or books that debate the topic.

Edit: To clarify, my second bit refers to Stal and Ducky's posts--if you say that it's illogical to think that a bunch of people made up all the miracles attributed to Jesus, I'm not sure why you think that it isn't illogical to think that a bunch of people made up all the miracles attributed to other religious leaders. Sorry 'bout that!

[irishdragonlord]

KKM said:

I'm not going to get into this debate. I just want to point out a couple of things:

People die for other religions, too--sometimes at the hands of Christians.

If it's silly to think that the claims about Jesus were invented, why is it not silly to think that the claims about Mohammed or the Buddha or the oracle at Delphi were invented?

Main reason is because a lot of the claims are disproved in the Bible.

One thing I liked - when Paul was complaining about how the other apostles and church leaders were married and he, against his desires, decided it would be best for him if he stayed single. He mentioned the brothers in the Lord, the apostles, Peter, yet never Jesus. If Jesus had been married, wouldn't Paul have said "and the Christ as well"?

And one thing on Christians killing other religious peoples - to them. In God's eyes, those victims are as good as those "Christians". Dead equal, no difference.

[Stal]

KKM said:

I'm not going to get into this debate. I just want to point out a couple of things:

People die for other religions, too--sometimes at the hands of Christians.

If it's silly to think that the claims about Jesus were invented, why is it not silly to think that the claims about Mohammed or the Buddha or the oracle at Delphi were invented?

KKM...

...Did you even read what we said?

These people didn't have to die. These were the inner core of the church of that age. The people that witnessed all the great miracles. And they were martyred. In violent ways. Steven was stoned! Stoning is not picking up a small rock and tossing it at them. The rocks used in a stoning were big. Not dinky things.

And at any time, he could've renounced it all! Said it was a hoax! Backed out to save their very lives so they didn't have to die for a lie.

But they didn't. Because it wasn't a lie.

And these people have existed. Their existence is corroborated by Josephus, the great old world historian that is VERY credible.

As for the rest, well let's see here. Mohammed existed. But did his visions? After all there was no real proof of Allah. Mohammed had 'visions'. And I'm sure he did. But not from Allah, but most likely Satan who just loves to cause confusion, division, and so forth. A religion of war? Sounds great.

Oracle of Delphi...more 'visions'. And do we even know how often those are said to be correct?

Buddha? He existed. Historical figure. Had a philosophy and other beliefs of his own. People turned it into a religion with gods and even deified Buddha himself. Buddha, for one, made adamant claims in his life to not be deified when he died.

Hm.

Yeah. Have any of these Buddhist philosophies ever had any sort of a proof?

[Deleted]

Ninja said:

KKM...

...Did you even read what we said?

These people didn't have to die. These were the inner core of the church of that age. The people that witnessed all the great miracles. And they were martyred. In violent ways. Steven was stoned! Stoning is not picking up a small rock and tossing it at them. The rocks used in a stoning were big. Not dinky things.

And at any time, he could've renounced it all! Said it was a hoax! Backed out to save their very lives so they didn't have to die for a lie.

But they didn't. Because it wasn't a lie.

And these people have existed. Their existence is corroborated by Josephus, the great old world historian that is VERY credible.

As for the rest, well let's see here. Mohammed existed. But did his visions? After all there was no real proof of Allah. Mohammed had 'visions'. And I'm sure he did. But not from Allah, but most likely Satan who just loves to cause confusion, division, and so forth. A religion of war? Sounds great.

Oracle of Delphi...more 'visions'. And do we even know how often those are said to be correct?

Buddha? He existed. Historical figure. Had a philosophy and other beliefs of his own. People turned it into a religion with gods and even deified Buddha himself. Buddha, for one, made adamant claims in his life to not be deified when he died.

Hm.

Yeah. Have any of these Buddhist philosophies ever had any sort of a proof?

This Josephus you speak of, how can you prove he is credible?

The thing about truth, credibility, and all that stuff, is that's it's just about impossible to get people with different views to believe in it withotu seeing it for themselves.

Try and tell a devout Christian that Jesus was not the Messiah, he was just a con-artist (don't ask, ,I'm making that up), and that you have the proof of a hundred witnesses. Would he believe you? No. He was brought up always knowing that Jesus was the Messiah, because the proof he has tells him otherwise.

Tell a believer of Allah that his god is really the devil. You're basically telling him that he's going to go to hell, and that his god is false. He won't believe you, Allah is what he knows and has his own proof for.

Without witnessing something, it is very hard to believe in it if you already know a different version or story. Personally, I think Jesus was just a magician. All those "miracles" he did were really just tricks. Would a Christian think I'm insane? Of course. Am I? Prove it.

[irishdragonlord]

TheComedian said:

This Josephus you speak of, how can you prove he is credible?

The thing about truth, credibility, and all that stuff, is that's it's just about impossible to get people with different views to believe in it withotu seeing it for themselves.

Try and tell a devout Christian that Jesus was not the Messiah, he was just a con-artist (don't ask, ,I'm making that up), and that you have the proof of a hundred witnesses. Would he believe you? No. He was brought up always knowing that Jesus was the Messiah, because the proof he has tells him otherwise.

Tell a believer of Allah that his god is really the devil. You're basically telling him that he's going to go to hell, and that his god is false. He won't believe you, Allah is what he knows and has his own proof for.

Without witnessing something, it is very hard to believe in it if you already know a different version or story. Personally, I think Jesus was just a magician. All those "miracles" he did were really just tricks. Would a Christian think I'm insane? Of course. Am I? Prove it.

If you can get whipped, nailed to two planks, stuck with a spear, move a boulder, and live to tell the tale, does that not beat the term "trick"?

And, did he use a "trick" to turn nature into obeying him?

And did he know people's thoughts by "tricks"? (And if he was psychic, explain the cross thing)

The credibility thing - if you believe what they say about the Eqyptians and Chinese and Mesopotamians and Greek, why is the Jew's story so uncredible?

[Stal]

TheComedian said:

This Josephus you speak of, how can you prove he is credible?

The thing about truth, credibility, and all that stuff, is that's it's just about impossible to get people with different views to believe in it withotu seeing it for themselves.

Try and tell a devout Christian that Jesus was not the Messiah, he was just a con-artist (don't ask, ,I'm making that up), and that you have the proof of a hundred witnesses. Would he believe you? No. He was brought up always knowing that Jesus was the Messiah, because the proof he has tells him otherwise.

Tell a believer of Allah that his god is really the devil. You're basically telling him that he's going to go to hell, and that his god is false. He won't believe you, Allah is what he knows and has his own proof for.

Without witnessing something, it is very hard to believe in it if you already know a different version or story. Personally, I think Jesus was just a magician. All those "miracles" he did were really just tricks. Would a Christian think I'm insane? Of course. Am I? Prove it.

Because Josephus's writings have been proven right and corroborated on numerous occasions. Archaeologists, Historians, and so forth all trust Josephus. He was the historian of his day. Events that happened, Josephus wrote about.

[thegreenmooseofdoom]

IDL said:

If you can get whipped, nailed to two planks, stuck with a spear, move a boulder, and live to tell the tale, does that not beat the term "trick"?

And, did he use a "trick" to turn nature into obeying him?

And did he know people's thoughts by "tricks"? (And if he was psychic, explain the cross thing)

The credibility thing - if you believe what they say about the Eqyptians and Chinese and Mesopotamians and Greek, why is the Jew's story so uncredible?

Rasputin was poisoned, shot, drowned, beat with clubs... a whole mess of stuff and he still lived. Weird stuff happens sometimes.

[irishdragonlord]

thegreenmooseofdoom said:

Rasputin was poisoned, shot, drowned, beat with clubs... a whole mess of stuff and he still lived. Weird stuff happens sometimes.

All within a 24-hour period?

And was he forced to move the boulder ?

Ok, the thread has changed topics. Can we go back to what it WAS about?

[thegreenmooseofdoom]

IDL said:

All within a 24-hour period?

And was he forced to move the boulder ?

Ok, the thread has changed topics. Can we go back to what it WAS about?

All within a 24 hour period. Those assassins wanted him DEAD.

[Deleted]

Remember the hermatidrosis, though.