The Da Vinci Code

[irishdragonlord]

thegreenmooseofdoom said:

All within a 24 hour period. Those assassins wanted him DEAD.

Cool. ;D

But remember the boulder and hermatidrosis.

[Deleted]

IDL said:

If you can get whipped, nailed to two planks, stuck with a spear, move a boulder, and live to tell the tale, does that not beat the term "trick"?

And, did he use a "trick" to turn nature into obeying him?

And did he know people's thoughts by "tricks"? (And if he was psychic, explain the cross thing)

The credibility thing - if you believe what they say about the Eqyptians and Chinese and Mesopotamians and Greek, why is the Jew's story so uncredible?

People have gone through a lot and still lived.

And prove that he made nature obey him, or that he could read people's minds (sorry, I should stop going on with the "prove it" stuff).

Why do I not find his story credible? I'm atheist. I don't believe in God, much less a man with God's powers. The tales of the other ancients didn't have any of that stuff (and the parts that did, I don't believe in).

[enigmaticviolinist]

John and Jesus are half-brothers.

[Crystal]

BlinkieBoy765 said:

John and Jesus are half-brothers.

Jesus had a brother named John, the son of Mary and Joseph. He also had a disciple named John, who was James' brother and a fisherman. Both of these people were different, it's just that the name was quite common, I think.

This board seems to have changed topics....

EDIT: John the Baptist is the son of Mary's relative, who was quite old and barren. He was later imprisoned by Herod for denouncing the king's marriage to his sister-in-law (I'm not sure if she WAS his sister-in-law, but at any rate she was a close relative)and beheaded when the king promised his step-daughter, who was dancing for him, anything. Prompted by her mother, she asked for the head of John the Baptist.

[Deleted]

What miracles did Mohammed perform? Or Buddha?
(Those were actually genuine questions. I've read about Islam and Buddism but have never come across anything about miracles.)

People have gone through a lot and still lived.

But how many have gone through that, died, then risen 3 days later?

And prove that he made nature obey him, or that he could read people's minds

Heh? Where in the heck did THAT stuff come up? Are you talking about when he died and the earth and curtain split and such? Because that was God marking the end of the covenant...But still, I don't remember anything about Jesus being telepathic.

Jesus had a brother named John. He also had a disciple named John. Both of these people were different, it's just that the name was quite common, I think.

Were either of those John the Baptist? Because he was martyred too. Had his head cut off, if I remember right.

If Jesus did exist, the Bible may still not be inerrant or even generally accurate.

Around 15,000 copies of the New Testament have been found. That's thousands more copies than those of the Illiad, which is found true and credible by scholars. Also, within those 15,000 writings, there is only a .005 (maybe it's .05. I have to check my book when I get home) percent distortion rate. Only 20 lines total in all the 15,000 copies are changed in a way that would affect the meaning of the sentence.

[Tdyans]

Try and tell a devout Christian that Jesus was not the Messiah, he was just a con-artist (don't ask, ,I'm making that up), and that you have the proof of a hundred witnesses. Would he believe you? No. He was brought up always knowing that Jesus was the Messiah.

Just had to make a small comment on this: not all Christians were "brought up always knowing that Jesus was the Messiah." And I know many people of real, great faith from both sides of the spectrum (raised in the church and not). And I know plenty of people who are the complete opposite from both upbringings as well. The point is, it's not fair to assume that people believe what they do just because they were brought up to do so.

Ducky said:

Were either of those John the Baptist? Because he was martyred too. Had his head cut off, if I remember right.

No, but he was Jesus' cousin, I believe.

[Crystal]

Ducky said:

What miracles did Mohammed perform? Or Buddha?
(Those were actually genuine questions. I've read about Islam and Buddism but have never come across anything about miracles.)

I don't think Muhammad did any. I studied him in History and recieved quite a thorough education on him, courtesy of my History syllabus. Islam believes there are 10 (or was it 14?) prophets, of which he was the last. Among those prophets come Abraham, Solomon and Jesus (Nabi Sulaiman and Nabi Isa, I believe). Mohammed was born in Mecca, and first he was a normal (my book insists he was a really good guy and called 'al-Amin', trustworthy; but it's so biased I don't trust it on most scores) businessman, marrying a wife a great deal older than him whom he at first worked for. They had four children, I think, but all the sons died in childhood. He only recieved the first vision in his forties (can't remember the name of it now). The Muslims call the name of the angel who apparently appeared to him 'Jibrail', which is closely related pronounciation-wise to the name 'Gabriel', an arch-angel mentioned in the Bible and generally believed here to be the same person. In the second vision he recieved, he was told to spread the newborn religion, and so he did, first to his family and later to others. It was more or less rejected in Mecca and so he fled to Madinah under threat to his life. Over there, Islam was widely accepted and soon became very powerful. Afterward, Mecca was conquered once again. Muhammad died and was replaced by the Caliphs, selected from those who were close to him while he was still alive. His last words or something was that the al-Quran (Koran) was the word of God, which he had recorded from his numberous visions, and that although he would die it would be his legacy.

That's all I can remember off the spur of the moment. I could say more if I had my history book, but I finished my essays this week so it's still at school. Can't remember much about Buddha, since my books deal mostly with Islam (1 page on Christianity (which had terribly skewed facts, by the way) aside from the chapter on Europe and Britain, half a chapter on Hinduism and Buddhism and 60% of the rest dealt mostly about Islamic history. Silly thing.). At any rate, the part on Christianity was so horribly skewed that I don't trust what they said on the other religions.

There are only three religions in the world which believe in the 'one God' idea. Christianity is the biggest at the moment, Islam is spreading fast, and Judaism (did I spell that right?) is the third. They are all related in the fact that they believe that there's only one God, that man was created from dust BY God, and that God will come again at the end of time to judge. Christianity believes that Jesus was the Messiah, to redeem the fallen and bring a second chance, the Jews believe that the Messiah has not yet come, and the Muslims don't believe in any Messiah I know of. This is the major descrepicancy (I KNOW I spelt that wrong now ) between the three.


On the John subject, John the Baptist, John the disciple and John Jesus' half-brother were three completely different people. I'm sorry, I missed him out earlier.

[Oily]

Mmm, from what I remember of RE, Muhammed was a normal guy, went to a cave somewhere, got some visions and was handed some of the Qua'ran by an angel. And he married a really young wife after his much older one died.

Buddha was a prince, and revoked his life of luxury to teach people his philosophy.

As for Jesus...Well, if you were supposedly a virgin, at least to your husband, and you suddenly fell pregnant...Stoning, or a convenient divine encounter? Not a hard choice.

Personally, I find it easier to believe he was a clever magician, with maybe someone else on the cross for him, than the son of god :/ I believe his teachings still stand as generally good, and miracles were probably necessary to get people to really believe in you.

Uh, and how do we know he had hermatidrosis? Plus, bits of the story could be exaggerated. Like the bread and fishes tale. That just defies logic.

And Crystal, there's more than three monotheistic religions but they're not very mainstream.

That's thousands more copies than those of the Illiad, which is found true and credible by scholars

The Illiad is true? Doesn't it tell tales of the gods though? I'm sure most scholars thought it just made a fine story.

[Ducky not logged in]

Uh, and how do we know he had hermatidrosis?

Luke, I believe, had recorded in that in the Garden of Gesthemene (sp?) Jesus was praying and calling out to God and was sweating blood.

[Princess Ember Mononoke]

Oily said:

The Illiad is true? Doesn't it tell tales of the gods though? I'm sure most scholars thought it just made a fine story.

Nope, the Illiad is NOT historically accurate. There is SOME accuracy, as I'm quite sure there is with the Bible.

Luke, I believe, had recorded in that in the Garden of Gesthemene (sp?) Jesus was praying and calling out to God and was sweating blood.

Sorry hon, but "facts" from the Bible aren't going to convince anyone who doesn't believe in Christianity in the first place.

I, personally, don't doubt the Miracles or the Ressurection, though I'm not exactly sure that they happened, either. I believe that, with God, anything is possible.

Now, the Buddha. I LOVE the Buddha. We've heard about Muhammad and Jesus, so I might as well explain about him. He was born Sidhartha, a wealthy prince with a good life. He had anything anyone could ever really want, and yet he wasn't happy. One day, he left the palace grounds and took a good look at the outside world. He saw things - old age, sickness, and death - that made him think long and hard about the life he was leading. So, he decided to give up his life of luxury, abandon everything he had and become a monk. He lived the Holy life for a while - without possessions, without a home - and yet he wasn't happy. So, one day, he sat down under a tree and meditated. He sat there looking deep within himself for DAYS without moving. When he finally stirred, he was an enlightened man - the Buddha.
Now, I don't think he ever performed any miracles, though he very well might have. He didn't really need to - people were drawn by his presence, the glowiing light of love and warmth that surrounded him. I have met sages before - Enlightened Ones - and let me tell you something about them. Just being around them makes you feel like a different person - you feel more alive, happier, as though you are basking in the warmth of Life itself. All someone like that has to do is laugh, or say one word, or even look at you, and you immediately think I like this person.. The Buddha was a GREAT sage. I can only imagine what a divine prescense he had.
Yes, some Buddhists have had him deified. They are not true Buddhists. Yes, Buddhists love the Buddha and will often have statues or figures of him. But that doesn't mean they think of him as a God. They seem him for what he was - a very special human who brought happiness to all who basked in his presence, a great sage and an enlightened man.

[Deleted]

Tdyans said:

Just had to make a small comment on this: not all Christians were "brought up always knowing that Jesus was the Messiah." And I know many people of real, great faith from both sides of the spectrum (raised in the church and not). And I know plenty of people who are the complete opposite from both upbringings as well. The point is, it's not fair to assume that people believe what they do just because they were brought up to do so.

Oops, I made a mistake. You are correct, but I hope everyone understood the main idea of what I was saying (I'm sure I stated it enough).

Ducky said:

But how many have gone through that, died, then risen 3 days later?

As I've said many times before, prove it happened.

Heh? Where in the heck did THAT stuff come up? Are you talking about when he died and the earth and curtain split and such? Because that was God marking the end of the covenant...But still, I don't remember anything about Jesus being telepathic.

A quote by IDL:

And, did he use a "trick" to turn nature into obeying him?

And did he know people's thoughts by "tricks"? (And if he was psychic, explain the cross thing)

Around 15,000 copies of the New Testament have been found. That's thousands more copies than those of the Illiad, which is found true and credible by scholars. Also, within those 15,000 writings, there is only a .005 (maybe it's .05. I have to check my book when I get home) percent distortion rate. Only 20 lines total in all the 15,000 copies are changed in a way that would affect the meaning of the sentence.

A book's number of publishings and their margins of error do not prove anything in the book is true.

[Crystal]

Oily said:

And Crystal, there's more than three monotheistic religions but they're not very mainstream.

Mmm, I was just citing the ones with a larger following. Sorry.

Buddha's name was Siddhartha Gautama. Just a little fact which doesn't have anything to do with anything. From what I was taught, Buddhism is a gentler version of Hinduism. I've never really studied in-depth on it, although I could ask my friend, I guess.

[althechia]

Oh, I just finished that book. ;D

The Davinci Code, I mean. You all seem to have flown off topic a bit...it actually doesn't deny the existance of Jesus or the Apostles, or how much they suffered and so forth.

It explores how the Church allegedly (I put this in so as not to offend anyone) competely warped Jesus' teachings, changing Him from a great mortal teacher to an uberspiffy, untouchable God so that they could have more power.

It states evidence that He might have wanted his girlfriend/wife/really good friend Mary to found His church rather than Peter, and that the legendary Holy Grail may in fact be the true teachings of Jesus, or even the tomb of Mary herself.

It talks about Da Vinci and several other great men's involvement with the Priory of Sion, a group protecting the secrets of the Holy Grail, and explores references to Mary Magdolene from great literature to Disney movies.

It states, at one point, that the Bible didn't just fall from the sky one day; a MORTAL PERSON(s) wrote it, someone with biases just like the rest of us. It also explores ancient paganistic religion, which focuses on equality and balance between men and women (light and dark, etc.), while the church, for the longest time, focused on making men superior and destroying all other religions.

I'm just picking out the religious bits. On top of that, it's a friggin awesome mystery novel that I found pretty entertaining, God issues or not. It's not necessarily a Church-bashing book either, despite intial appearances; read through the entire thing and you'll discover it simply expresses another point of view and doesn't really deny the Church. It uses these issues more as a very big boost to the plot rather than just trying to be super-preachy. And it has a fairly surprising ending. I don't wanna wreck the plot...

And personally, book aside, I believe that Jesus was indeed a real person, but that he was a mortal person. A great leader, certainly a very kind, gentle, and ethical teacher. But history has a way of exaggerating things, and I've heard evidence stating that some things about Jesus just aren't true. I'm an atheist, and I don't think there's any higher power other than that of our own humanity. That's just my belief.

Also, there's sects of Buddhism that do believe Siddartha and other Buddhas performed one or two holy acts in the name of enlightenment. The Buddhism I practice focuses more on life ethics and dealing with your own mortality rather than the myth. But I'd rather not get into that.

[althechia]

You should all read 'Creation' by Gore Vidal. There was a time when Christianity never existed, and this book is a nice little peek into that time.

[Oily]

Ember said:

Now, the Buddha. I LOVE the Buddha.

Mmm, I looked into Buddhism at one time, but it seemed quite...pessimistic to me. I think I'm an incurable optimist I respect a lot of the Buddha's teachings, but there's some on how life is suffering, and only by detatching ourselves from it can we find happiness. Or it was something along those lines. And that life is suffering. I find life to be an eternal joy, unfolding right before my eyes, and I am buoyed by the sight of a stalk of grass sometimes.
The other thing I didn't like was how reliant monks are on others for everything. We cannot all be like that. For all the lack of selfishness in Buddhism, it almost sounds selfish - seek your own enlightenment, while others provide your food.

And, like you said, most Buddhists use a figure of Buddha only for focus, not as an idol. I believe the two names of the two main types are Theravada and Mahayana, also known as Greater Vehicle and Lesser Vehicle. This is because of how their beliefs differ. One detifies Buddha, the other does not. One believes everyone can get to Nirvana (Greater Vehicle); the other only some can (Lesser Vehicle). And these jumbled fragments are all I can remember from three years ago Our RE is suprisingly broad - we studied just about every major religion, discussed its beliefs and particulars, and some of its faults.

And, yes, the topic of the Da Vinci Code seems to be rather lost. I guess it's because most of us haven't read it yet