Separation of Church and State

[sollunaestrella]

KittyKadaveral said:

I'm not sterotyping and the only reason I've said what I have is just to show the reason WHY people pick on the Christians. All I am saying is that Christians have this certain way of life that is a certain way and then you get those that come along and tear it up in ways it shouldn't be. I wasn't trying to come off as saying ALL Christians are like that, but lately it seems like it's turning more and more into a majority on the news. Thanks for pointing out that it was tollerance and not intollerance, I was trying to get cat claws out of my leg at the time I have nothing against any religions because as I said in an earlier post they're all basically the same thing, just called by a different name. I don't care who believes in what or how as long as they're happy it's what counts. I know too many people that DO try to force others into their beliefs by literally telling them they are wrong in their ways. A good friend of mine is a Jew and she's wonderful and there was a person in our chat group that actually PITIED her and said he was sorry she was Jewish and if he could pray for her and try to save her Now what is that supposed to be?

You say that "Christians have a certain way of life" and then you say that you weren't trying to come off as saying ALL Christians are like that after the fact. That confuses me. You generalized about a group of people. What you said is true about some people, but most aren't how you generalized at all.

So your information was, on the whole, false - at least from what I've perceived myself. Like Crystal said, what you said is like saying all Muslims are terrorists, and "that's why people pick on them." The majority of Muslims are not terrorists, just like the majority of Christians are not how you described. And yes, I think your description would classify as a stereotype.

I hope I'm not coming off as rude or anything; I'm just concerned about what you said as I've seen that most of it is false, and I'm really disappointed that people see Christians in this untrue way.

[Buddy]

Okay, people! Now, I'm not about to let this turn into a Christian bashing session (anymore than it already has) - it's not right, and it's not fair.

You can find bad things and hypocrises to say about any religon/nationality/group of people. But that doesn't make them a bad group overall. Every religon, every country (yes, including the great U.S. of A.) has done bad things in the past when stupid people gained power. But to to me, it's a paradox to call all Christians ignorant - that, in itself, is ignorance.

Now, I don't worship the Christian faith - I don't believe in some of the things they teach. But I respect those who do worship it, and I know not everyone who's Chrsitian believe in those silly things (like that Harry Potter is evil). I recognize people for who they are - individuals. I may not practice your faith, but I surely respect it.

You know who doesn't acknowledge people as individuals? You know who does group everyone into a class and labels them "evil"? Terrorists. They say "We will kill all Americans", not, "We will kill the AMericans who have harmed us". They don't differenciate between one and the other - to them, all AMericans are bad and evil and wrong. To classify all Chrsitians into one sect, to say they all believe the same thing, is to do just as the terrorists do.

Now, please, don't make me lock this thread on my first full day of being a mini-mod, please! I really don't want to. But don't test me - I will.

[Kiddo]

Crystal said:

And I read in Kiddo's journal that she was thinking of getting a tattoo.

Altough my parents are wigging out over that. I'm tempted to get one just to make the point that Christians aren't up-tight holier-than-thou idiots but I don't want to get one JUST to make a point.

I've been kinda staying away from this thread simply because I didn't have the time to follow it. I doubt any of you know, but I spent the past week down in the ghetto working at a church summer camp with the kids. I've been working in that area all summer but this is the longest I've spent down there... had to give up a ton of my hours at work but it was worth it.

Anyways, I just want to make a quick point here about Christianity. The majority of Christians aren't. There's a verse in the Bible that basically says that you'll know who follows Christ by their actions. One of the biggest indicators that a person has dedicated their life to Christ is a changed life. If they don't show those traits or don't show any attempt to change their bad habits and such, then you have reason to doubt the genuinity of their claims. At worst, they're just saying their Christian cause they go to church on Sunday. At best, their Christian acting poorly, which is something everybody does.

There's a really good quote from DC Talk about this... "The greatest cause of athiesm in the world today is Christians, who agkowledge with their lips, walk out the door, and deny by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds ubelievable."

So before you write off the entire religion, remember that there's a difference between what people say and what they really are. It's like with Islam - some of them would kill me for being Christian, while some respect my beliefs, like Ibraham (I probably spelt that wrong) who still prays to Allah for my father.

And no, I am not offended by anything on this board. Saddened, yes, but this was not unexpected. I've gotten used to it.

[Patjade]

I would have to agree with what Kiddo says. I may criticize what many "Christians" do, but that is because many of them do not follow their own teachings. I went off on my own tangent, and being in different places across the USA and the world has opened my eyes, as well as my mind.

When one actually READS the Bible, on their own, in its entirety, and keeps in mind who wrote it and how, you tend to think that it wasn't written for some small group of people to use to tell everyone else where to go.

It has a LOT of stories, teachings, and examples on how one should live their lives. Not so much as to what food to eat or when to work, but how to treat other people.

It seems to many use the Bible as a weapon, rather than as a tool.

[Kiddo]

Patjade said:

It seems to many use the Bible as a weapon, rather than as a tool.

Pat, you're brilliant. That is EXACTLY what happens.

Case in point. Some people use the Bible against homosexuality in that it's not allowed. OMG theyr'e doing something bad they're all going to hell!!11!

However... if you look in Romans.... "You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. "

Um, whoops? I always have to wonder at people who yell the loudest - how much of the Bible HAVE they read?

(and that's kinda from personal experience... when I started working with a gay manager I had to do some serious reading to figure out my opinion on the whole matter)

[Shadyy]

Blah...

Sometimes people need to believe in something, others think they're to samrt or whatever they say they are to do so.
It concerns you, personally, other people shouldn't tell you how and what to believ, they can guide you of course...but not push you

There's a lot of intolerance, but not only between different religions, also atheïsts can be very intolerant because they think they see things clearer and now better. Frankly if you think that, you are no better....

Another thing is that these debates don't ever seem to end...it's sad really. Let people live like they want to.

Sometimes it's somewhat hard not to be intolerant due to a severe shock...I must say I've seen documentary's that really appalled me...
But you can't generalize

EDIT: Oh yes, about the bible...I just read it because it's great part of our culture (like it or not). Especially in art, these are just things you have to know.
Our litterature professor said we should have a mini-french-bible because it comes up often in french litterature....

[Princess Ember Mononoke]

I have absolutely nothing against Chrisitans. I used to be quite arrogant about my beliefs and looked down on Christians, but then I realized how completely STUPID that was, given what my beliefs are. I now try my best to be nonjudgemental, like Jesus and so many other Teachers have taught us to be. And I realize how many people have found true peace through Christianity. At it's core, it is just an interpretation of Truth. Like all religions, it's just another path to God - it's not the one for me, but that's okay. I have ENOURMOUS respect for people who come to their religion, whatever it may be, from a place of love. There are a lot people like that on this forum - Kiddo, Sol, and Pat to name a few - and it is wonderful to be around them. I also have great respect for atheists who refuse to be told what to believe, and yet relize that not everyone with spiritual beliefs is trying to force them on them. I still have trouble not judging people of any belief system who try to force their beliefs on others. That makes me ANGRY, but someday I hope to be able to look at people like that and feel nothing but sympathy.
I know that no matter what you believe, you mess up sometimes. Even after all the times I've had moments of Awakening, I still spend most of my time in a lapse where I only know what I do intellectually, and I'm often arrogant and judgemental, even though in the context of what I belive, emotions like that don't even make SENSE. But I try. I really do. And I know that just because someone is a Christian and not always and angel, it doesn't make them, much less ALL Christians, bad people.

[ghostision]

Sorry, I know this is off topic again, but

Ember said:

No... they used the fact that the American Postal Service has a nearly spotless record and they delivered all of their "Dear Santa" letters to the guy.

Of course, in reality the poor postal workers were just sick of all the letters piling up, and found this "Santa on Trial" thing the perfect way of getting rid of them.

No, I distinctly remember, in the remake that no one ever sees, the lawyer told the little girl to give a christmas card with a dollar bill inside to the judge, with the words "under God" highlighted, and the judge said, if the government could put that on the dollar bill without concrete evidence, then the old guy could be declared Santa Clause without any evidence. Of course, no one ever sees the remake, so I doubt anyone has any clue as to what I'm talking about.

[thegreenmooseofdoom]

ghostision said:

Sorry, I know this is off topic again, but



No, I distinctly remember, in the remake that no one ever sees, the lawyer told the little girl to give a christmas card with a dollar bill inside to the judge, with the words "under God" highlighted, and the judge said, if the government could put that on the dollar bill without concrete evidence, then the old guy could be declared Santa Clause without any evidence. Of course, no one ever sees the remake, so I doubt anyone has any clue as to what I'm talking about.

Haha, I saw that. Geez, that was cheesy. xD Very melodramatic.

[Kiddo]

ghostision said:

Of course, no one ever sees the remake, so I doubt anyone has any clue as to what I'm talking about.

o.O There's a remake?

[ghostision]

Kiddo said:

o.O There's a remake?

*nods* I saw it during holiday season, it was on TV. I didn't like either one very much, personally, just, meh. The guy who played the lawyer was the main lawyer person in the practice once, and I absolutely love him.

Since we're already far off topic, does anyone else find the "He knows if you been bad or good" song for Santa Clause just a bit disturbing? Sort of a stalker mentality. My friend and I rewrote the lyrics.

He knows when you are sleeping
He knows when you're awake.
He knows where you go to school
So be good for goodness sake.

Sing it in a creepy voice, and you'll understand.

Sorry, just ignore me. I'm really hyper.

[KittyKadaveral]

ghostision said:

*nods* I saw it during holiday season, it was on TV. I didn't like either one very much, personally, just, meh. The guy who played the lawyer was the main lawyer person in the practice once, and I absolutely love him.

Since we're already far off topic, does anyone else find the "He knows if you been bad or good" song for Santa Clause just a bit disturbing? Sort of a stalker mentality. My friend and I rewrote the lyrics.

He knows when you are sleeping
He knows when you're awake.
He knows where you go to school
So be good for goodness sake.

Sing it in a creepy voice, and you'll understand.

Sorry, just ignore me. I'm really hyper.

LOL You have a very good point about that song. If you listen to any nursery rhymes they're rather scary as well. Rock a bye baby, eek! I know those were wrote for other reasons way back when and weren't exactly made entirely for children, stories like Little Red Riding Hood and Pinocchio were probably wrote to scare the crud out of kids so they'd behave and I wouldn't doubt that with the Santa stuff too. I used to be terrified of the moon when it would shine through my gram's back kitchen window. I remember stealing a Reeses Cup from the fridge, saw the moon and sat under the table hoping it wouldnt 'see' my crime...so I think the stories do their job in some way

[ice]

Ah...the hypocrisy (sp?) it is very common in my Catholic religion, I myself am not very religious and do not prefer to get involved with politics. My veiws are fairly neutral except for certain issues like abortion and such, the country has gotten far too politically correct...

BUT...

The certain things that leaders of Christianity do is QUITE terrible sometimes, like a friend of my cousin's tried to get an annulment but her priest told her that she would have to pay him three hundred dollars for one (priests are not supposed to request payment for anything)

Christianity can be pretty terrible sometimes, but I will stick with it for as long as I live.

And that is my very terrible speech of the day

[Oily]

The reasons why people pick on Christians are valid enough - a lot of Christianity bashing is due to people getting angry with constant attempts to convert them or contradicting their own beliefs or using the Bible as a weapon and absolute truth or being intolerant.

However, not all Christians are like that. It is the small minority that ruin it for the majority. But the reason Christians are bashed are due to the actions of a few. The reasons other religions aren't bashed as much is because their troublesome minorities aren't as prominent or prevalent.

I have great Christian friends and great non Christian friends and great respect for them all. Never once have they tried to convert me, or pray to "save" me, or flash their beliefs in front of me. We have great mutual respect, and we discuss religion quite a lot in a very friendly way.

However, I also run across the other types. The guy who told me god would kill me, because I politely refused to go to the church at that exact moment in time. The woman who held a bible and told us not to touch each other because Jesus healed a leper once by touching him (or something nonsensical like that.) The ones who think I can't have morals or hold opinions, because I don't share theirs.

Many Christians do good things for the community because of their beliefs. And many other people do good things too, because of their own beliefs. I will respect anyone who holds virtues I consider good, regardless of their beliefs. And I will not respect anyone with intolerance.

[Kiddo]

Oily said:

However, not all Christians are like that. It is the small minority that ruin it for the majority. But the reason Christians are bashed are due to the actions of a few. The reasons other religions aren't bashed as much is because their troublesome minorities aren't as prominent or prevalent.

Which I find rather odd. Perhaps it's not known because it doesn't take place in America, but it's not uncommon for Christians to be killed or imprisoned in Islam countries. Officials usually just look the other way...

You just touched on something that really bothers me Oily. I wish other religions got as much scrutiny as Christianity because maybe then Voice of the Martyrs could be disbanded.