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Post by Stal on Feb 9, 2012 18:03:18 GMT -5
After skimming through, I'd like to bring up a couple of questions: Why do you consider designing characters with sex appeal a negative thing? Most are still treated just as well as other characters so why is fanservice considered a negative trait? And even with characters that are treated solely as fanservice to attract gamers to the game, why is that considered a problem as well when there are other characters to make up for it? I think the issue I hear a lot is the imbalance. It's fan service to guys. Okay, whatever. But there's no thought or consideration for girls generally speaking. They get less fan service. They get less marketed to them. The industry is still a heavily male targeted field which is somewhat archaic in approach with girl gaming no longer an underground thing. And while I do think some of the sexism complaints are blown out of proportion, it's a legit complaint on the industry. Besides, I'm not female. I really can't see it from the POV of my gender not being treated right.
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Post by Gav on Feb 9, 2012 20:23:44 GMT -5
Well, a question might be: are we solely looking at video games here if we're talking about geekdom? Because like said earlier, there's comic books, and all this spills over into RL as well (buying things from a video game/comic book store). It's true there's a part that basically boils down to 'sexism stinks, oh, and it's the internet too so there's anonymity'.
As for anime villians, I actually find there's more of a 'big bad guy with multiple male henchmen and one female henchmen.' The female is also usually smarter, stronger, swifter (like a femme fatale) and closer to the boss than the other henchmen. There's also a higher chance she's really the one secretly pulling the strings/escaping when the boss is dead.
As for the whole sex appeal thing... it kinda varies from game to game. Kinda like Tifa vs. Chun-Li. Both are female martial arts fighters (so far, so good). Tifa is infamous for being... well-endowed in the chest area. A little leery about character design, but that isn't too bad. Oh, then she's dressed in a tight midriff-exposing white shirt and shorts that cover about 1/5 of her legs. One might argue that it's for flexibility and reducing loose fabric (though you'd almost never see any other male 'monks' dressed in a similiar manner') With a victory pose that basically amounts to baring her assets to the world. Yyyyeah.
Chun-Li on the other hand, is distinctively feminine, even if she has legs the side of Kentucky, but that's fine because she apparently has really strong kicks. Yet she's decked out pretty appropriately for a fighter, and is regarded as one of the toughest females in early video games.
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Post by Stal on Feb 9, 2012 20:34:09 GMT -5
Well, a question might be: are we solely looking at video games here if we're talking about geekdom? Because like said earlier, there's comic books, and all this spills over into RL as well (buying things from a video game/comic book store). It's true there's a part that basically boils down to 'sexism stinks, oh, and it's the internet too so there's anonymity'. As for anime villians, I actually find there's more of a 'big bad guy with multiple male henchmen and one female henchmen.' The female is also usually smarter, stronger, swifter (like a femme fatale) and closer to the boss than the other henchmen. There's also a higher chance she's really the one secretly pulling the strings/escaping when the boss is dead. As for the whole sex appeal thing... it kinda varies from game to game. Kinda like Tifa vs. Chun-Li. Both are female martial arts fighters (so far, so good). Tifa is infamous for being... well-endowed in the chest area. A little leery about character design, but that isn't too bad. Oh, then she's dressed in a tight midriff-exposing white shirt and shorts that cover about 1/5 of her legs. One might argue that it's for flexibility and reducing loose fabric (though you'd almost never see any other male 'monks' dressed in a similiar manner') With a victory pose that basically amounts to baring her assets to the world. Yyyyeah. Chun-Li on the other hand, is distinctively feminine, even if she has legs the side of Kentucky, but that's fine because she apparently has really strong kicks. Yet she's decked out pretty appropriately for a fighter, and is regarded as one of the toughest females in early video games. And then there's Mai Shiranui from King of Fighters...
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Post by Komori on Feb 9, 2012 20:42:18 GMT -5
After skimming through, I'd like to bring up a couple of questions: Why do you consider designing characters with sex appeal a negative thing? Most are still treated just as well as other characters so why is fanservice considered a negative trait? And even with characters that are treated solely as fanservice to attract gamers to the game, why is that considered a problem as well when there are other characters to make up for it? The best example was listed in the article I quoted: Batman Arkham City. You can take three male characters: Batman, Joker, and the Penguin (the article mentioned the Doctor, but I'm unfamiliar with him). You've got three male characters who are vastly different from one another, and only Batman could really be considered attractive by any stretch. Now, take the three main female characters: Catwoman, Harley, and Poison Ivy. Anti-hero slut, villain slut, and nearly-naked villain slut. All completely obvious fanservice. Not all women are curvy, slinky, sex machines, but where is our female Penguin? Where are the middle-aged women? Or the fat women? Or the downright ugly woman? Where are these "other characters" who make up for it? They don't exist.. I can name 20 male game characters who are definitely not fanservice. Can you name me five women? Gav: I don't understand the point you're trying to make. Those are both overtly sexualized fighters, even if one is "look at my boobs" and the other is "I can crush your head with my masive thighs."
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Post by Gav on Feb 9, 2012 21:02:03 GMT -5
After skimming through, I'd like to bring up a couple of questions: Why do you consider designing characters with sex appeal a negative thing? Most are still treated just as well as other characters so why is fanservice considered a negative trait? And even with characters that are treated solely as fanservice to attract gamers to the game, why is that considered a problem as well when there are other characters to make up for it? The best example was listed in the article I quoted: Batman Arkham City. You can take three male characters: Batman, Joker, and the Penguin (the article mentioned the Doctor, but I'm unfamiliar with him). You've got three male characters who are vastly different from one another, and only Batman could really be considered attractive by any stretch. Now, take the three main female characters: Catwoman, Harley, and Poison Ivy. Anti-hero slut, villain slut, and nearly-naked villain slut. All completely obvious fanservice. Not all women are curvy, slinky, sex machines, but where is our female Penguin? Where are the middle-aged women? Or the fat women? Or the downright ugly woman? Where are these "other characters" who make up for it? They don't exist.. I can name 20 male game characters who are definitely not fanservice. Can you name me five women? Gav: I don't understand the point you're trying to make. Those are both overtly sexualized fighters, even if one is "look at my boobs" and the other is "I can crush your head with my masive thighs." I'm pretty limited in terms of video games I've actually played, but sure: Aerith from FFVII, Leliana from Dragon Age, Samus from Metroid, Lennth from Vakyrie Profile, Ashley Williams from Mass Effect. The difference? Chun-Li isn't nearly as sexualised as Tifa. I'm not going to pretend there isn't a share of drooling fanboys over the fact that she shows skin. But she's famous for being one of the toughest female characters in video games, not because of her outfit or anything, but because she's going to kick your butt no matter who or what you are. Her design isn't seuxalised, as far as I can see- she has bigger breasts, sure, but that's like saying, female video game characters aren't allowed to have them. I'm actually of the opinion there IS sexism in video games and character design. I'm just of the idea that it does vary from game to game- some are definitely going to show less than others. It doesn't make the problem better, of course, I'm just pointing out that not all of them are detractors.
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Post by Komori on Feb 9, 2012 21:48:01 GMT -5
I'm pretty limited in terms of video games I've actually played, but sure: Aerith from FFVII, Leliana from Dragon Age, Samus from Metroid, Lennth from Vakyrie Profile, Ashley Williams from Mass Effect. Okay, you do know that I asked for five women who were definitely not fanservice, and you listed: You are aware that that middle one is one of four characters in that game you can have sex with, right? I didn't say you couldn't name 5 women who had interesting personalities or backstories. I said name 5 women who weren't fanservice: who weren't sexualized versions of females. I mean like this: These men were not designed as sexy men. A rare person would find any one of those people even remotely sexy. Look at this wide range of male characters, with a wide range of body types. Heck, three of them are fat! Look at the variety of designs of these men, and look at the women you listed. If those are the ones you can think of, then you're only proving my point. The difference? Chun-Li isn't nearly as sexualised as Tifa. I'm not going to pretend there isn't a share of drooling fanboys over the fact that she shows skin. But she's famous for being one of the toughest female characters in video games, not because of her outfit or anything, but because she's going to kick your butt no matter who or what you are. Her design isn't seuxalised, as far as I can see- she has bigger breasts, sure, but that's like saying, female video game characters aren't allowed to have them. Oh yeah. I can't possibly see anything sexual in Chun-Li.
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Post by Stal on Feb 9, 2012 22:16:29 GMT -5
Now wait a minute. Just because you can have sex with a character in the game doesn't make them "sexualized." that's part of a story, and something Bioware has done for a long time (well, you don't sleep with anyone in Kotor, but forming relationships is included). Considering that most Bioware games also include men to sleep with... Yeah.
Zero suit samus is a bit of fanservice, but play the original Metroid games. Aside from the things like "beat in two hours or less and see Samus in a bikini!" aspects, Samus was a very non-sexualized female character.
Now here's where I think some of the issues come in. Please keep in mind that this is NOT a defense, simply analysis.
Games have been a predominantly male field for ages. It's changing today. Inside the industry, you still have a resistance to change and some Hollywood mentality of what will attract guys.
Is it unfair to girls that it's not targeted at them? Or they're not considered? Sure. But they're still trying to attract the attention of a group who is very visually oriented and sexually motivated in that way.
Now. There is a similar portrayal of men, in other industries. What industry is a predominantly and stereotypically woman field of interest? Romance novels and movies. I don't know many guys that are into the stuff, but there are some. And the target is still women and creates idealized men.
Not in the physical way, because women don't have a common set of traits that are physically attractive for a man. But now what about traits of who the person is? Any character played by Ryan Gosling, Edward Cullen, Jacob, this or that guy... Romanticized idealized versions of men that impact women's views of men.
To me, it's the same thing as fanservice in video games.
I once read an article that described why Princess Bride was the only romantic movie all men love, and because of the qualities it gave the men and the characterization.
To me, the same seems to apply here. Yes, games without a doubt have too much of the "idealized, sexualized woman". Hollywood does, too. It's kind of a society thing, and games are still a classically male-centric arena. There needs to be a paradigm shift in the industry.
But I will say that there is plenty of examples going the other way. Some may disagree on the relevancy of that, but sexism and idealizing the Perfect Example is common in pretty much all areas. Women are just the easier to spot ones due to the way guys think, react, and view things. Cookie cutters as opposed to formulas, if that makes sense.
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Post by Nimras on Feb 9, 2012 22:19:03 GMT -5
Samus is tricky. Yeah, on one hand she runs around in non-sexualized armor and is a bounty hunter. On the other, the reward for a good score is getting to see her in her underwear/skimpy bathing suit, in not one, or two, or even three games, but four of the Metroid games (Not including the manga and Zero Mission, so one could say six. Eight if you count WarioWare: Twisted! and WarioWare: Touched!) That's kind of the definition of sexualized fan service. Ash, though, I wouldn't count as a sexist stereotype. Maybe that's because I really didn't like her because she was a speciest bigot who liked to quote too much literature at me. >.> FemShep would be another good example, yeah, she can have a boyfriend (or a girlfriend) but she also wears workable armor, and has a personality other than Slut. Well, except for that creepy voice then when she's talking to Jacob in ME2.
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Post by Breakingchains on Feb 9, 2012 22:29:11 GMT -5
Others have already mentioned the sheer imbalance of the fanservice across the industries. But I personally find fanservice... well, I dislike it even when it's directed at me. So I'll take a different stance here.
(Although, I am wondering if we could define "fanservice". My understanding of the term is that it refers to things like nudity thrown in for its own sake, or a character stuck in a sexy outfit for no reason. Extraneous stuff like that, that you wouldn't really notice if it wasn't there, and in bad cases hurts characterization and realism. I dislike it for a number of reasons, but if I'm mistaken on the definition or we're operating on a different definition here, please enlighten me.)
There's nothing wrong with giving a character a sexy side, but there's a way to handle it tastefully, respectfully, and realistically. Dju mentioned Catwoman, who's a great example. Sex appeal is part of who she is, which is fine--she's attractive, she knows it, she uses it to her advantage. There's nothing wrong with this in theory.
But pick up a random comic and look at its portrayal of her. Everything else gets lost in the sexy. Chances are she'll just be a generic chick in painted-on vinyl, making various innuendo at Batman for thirty pages. Every once in a while, you'll see a writer who treats her like a person, and then she can be absolutely fascinating and maintain an element of class without losing that important sexual aspect of her character. I've even seen a few writers show the darker side of what someone who uses her sex appeal to manipulate others is actually like and the deep-seated issues that implies, so it's a well-integrated character trait instead of just pure woo-hoo sexytimes. But in many writers' hands, she's paper-thin and trashy and terrible, and it's a crying shame, because they could do some really cool stuff with this character if they bothered to get past the fact that she is HOT!! and SEXY! and a GIRL!!11!
Even aside from treatment of individual characters, the real issue is that this is a constant trend in geek-media as a whole. Male characters get written like characters, and female characters get written like sex on legs. If Amanda Waller's complete redesign is anything to go by, they're not allowed to be anything but. Heck with diversity, realism, characterization or anything else.
(I could probably go on about this topic for a page or two, really, but this is already getting too long so I'll stop here. =p)
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Post by Stal on Feb 9, 2012 22:33:32 GMT -5
Samus is tricky. Yeah, on one hand she runs around in non-sexualized armor and is a bounty hunter. On the other, the reward for a good score is getting to see her in her underwear/skimpy bathing suit, in not one, or two, or even three games, but four of the Metroid games (Not including the manga and Zero Mission, so one could say six. Eight if you count WarioWare: Twisted! and WarioWare: Touched!) That's kind of the definition of sexualized fan service. Ash, though, I wouldn't count as a sexist stereotype. Maybe that's because I really didn't like her because she was a speciest bigot who liked to quote too much literature at me. >.> FemShep would be another good example, yeah, she can have a boyfriend (or a girlfriend) but she also wears workable armor, and has a personality other than Slut. Well, except for that creepy voice then when she's talking to Jacob in ME2. Question: is a fanservice bonus "gift" the same as a sexualized character? Or a character being made sexualized? (related but not topical: I actually beat Metroid II in an 1:45 one time... Yep, Samus in a bikini shows up after the credits finish)
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Post by Komori on Feb 9, 2012 22:35:16 GMT -5
Now. There is a similar portrayal of men, in other industries. What industry is a predominantly and stereotypically woman field of interest? Romance novels and movies. I don't know many guys that are into the stuff, but there are some. And the target is still women and creates idealized men. Now now, you can't pick one subgenre of movie to compare to the whole medium of games. If you're going to say "romance movies are geared for women," I'll say "action movies are geared for men." It isn't like movies on a whole are more preferential to women. And then I could say "games are geared for men," which you seemed to agree with me. Sure, there are some genres of games that I would expect more guys to prefer. A lot of shooters, for example. But what subgenre of game can you point to being more female-geared? Cooking-Mama games, maybe? As for Samus, since we're talking about sexism now, we have to refer to a character's most recent incarnation, no? If she was a good role model before and is no longer, then that's a bad thing, regardless of how great she was before. For example, even though Samus is a pretty good example of taking two steps back, I feel like the most recent reboot of Lara Croft is a fairly applaudable effort. The designers are making an effort to turn Lara into a relatable character, and not sexy Indiana Jones. Hard to say if they were successful until the game's released though.
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Post by Stal on Feb 9, 2012 22:42:22 GMT -5
Now. There is a similar portrayal of men, in other industries. What industry is a predominantly and stereotypically woman field of interest? Romance novels and movies. I don't know many guys that are into the stuff, but there are some. And the target is still women and creates idealized men. Now now, you can't pick one subgenre of movie to compare to the whole medium of games. If you're going to say "romance movies are geared for women," I'll say "action movies are geared for men." It isn't like movies on a whole are more preferential to women. And then I could say "games are geared for men," which you seemed to agree with me. Sure, there are some genres of games that I would expect more guys to prefer. A lot of shooters, for example. But what subgenre of game can you point to being more female-geared? Cooking-Mama games, maybe? As for Samus, since we're talking about sexism now, we have to refer to a character's most recent incarnation, no? If she was a good role model before and is no longer, then that's a bad thing, regardless of how great she was before. You mean Metroid Other M in which she's still in her suit most of the time? I'm not sure why she stopped being a role model because of having a figure. I'm okay admitting there's a legit depiction of women issue. But I'm not going to claim that having a figure is the same as sexualizing a character. Especially when the amount of time you even see her figure is pretty limited.
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Post by Komori on Feb 9, 2012 22:45:10 GMT -5
I haven't played Other M, but I was under the impression that that was the one that reviewers said turned Samus from a strong woman to a whiner.
Okay, and even if we're to ignore how every female character in a game is a physical ideal of beauty (which you can't even say for most of the males in games), that brings maybe some games to possibly the middle of the road? Somewhere around gender-neutral? So you have a horde of male-geared games, and a modest pocket of gender-neutral games. That means it's still male-geared, and is changing at a snail's pace.
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Post by Stal on Feb 9, 2012 22:51:57 GMT -5
I haven't played Other M, but I was under the impression that that was the one that reviewers said turned Samus from a strong woman to a whiner. Which is less a sexism thing and more a characterization thing. I could say the same thing about Force Unleashed's Secret Apprentice character. Male character, similar transformation. Not all changes to a female character are sexist in making. And that is one thing that people have to be careful of. Sexism claims are as bad as racism claims in that sometimes something that is a non-sexist/non-racist issue gets turned into one just by nature of who a character happens to be. Which raises many questions. I've seen people complain when not ALL female characters are stereotype breaking role models, ignoring whether that actually fits or not.
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Post by Stal on Feb 9, 2012 22:56:05 GMT -5
I certainly don't deny that it's still heavily male dominated. But the point I keep coming back to is to temper where the sexism is with realism, facts, and not emotion, and analyze the situations. Again, there really isn't some "ideal man" image. No one has one that is consistent. Whereas most guys, being far more visually oriented by nature, tend to have a much better -image- of what an ideal woman is. That's why it's pervasive.
But if you move beyond the -visual image-, you'll see that "ideal men" characters are pretty standard. They just don't come in the same package.
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