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Post by Huntress on Sept 12, 2012 7:44:45 GMT -5
Clearly we need more beefcakes in loincloths in gaming :3 Until the menfolk start feeling uncomfortable and things even out in whichever direction. *brick'd* also, because I'm obviously not a very thorough reader, For example, Bayonetta is an incredibly sexy and sexualized character. But her game is really, really fun. She's very powerful and driven, and never has to take a backseat to a man. XD Looking at her, you might guess that I should probably hate her game and everything she stands for. But I enjoyed being her for a while. That's not to say there were no problems in her depiction, but I felt like they were nicely countered by her personality and attitude. Y'know, that's a curious point, cos that reminds me of a similar buttwhooping heroine, namely Rayne from the Bloodrayne series. She runs around in stiletto heels and leather and was the first fictional character ever to have been featured in Playboy (yep, the magazine, and I don't even know if there've been any others after her) and looks-wise, she's basically a teenage gamer's wet dream. But personality-wise, she's a ruthless assassin with dry snark and anything sex-related doesn't even remotely enter the gameplay. She's got her looks, and that's it. She doesn't act sexy, she doesn't take interest in any men in the series, and the one time a man took interest in her as a woman (more specifically, Nazi twin brothers who acted as a miniboss got leery-flirty with her), her response was "aw, aren't you precious. HACK SLASH DIE." And yet both her and Bayonetta seem to be hella popular. Which leads me to wonder how much of this sexism debate can get skewed with characters who can be redeemed, so-to-say, with "hot, but entirely serious". Because a lot of judgment on new games and the female charas in them is passed on looks alone. Which can end up skewed in the other direction, i.e. a female should look not-hot and covered-up in order to be taken seriously. And man would that be a can of worms.
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Post by Komori on Sept 12, 2012 8:22:31 GMT -5
Clearly we need more beefcakes in loincloths in gaming :3 Until the menfolk start feeling uncomfortable and things even out in whichever direction. The two I can think of are Kratos and the main chara in Prince of Persia (the first of that PS2 trilogy). Even though the prince wore pants and not a loincloth, I DO distinctly remember him getting progressively more naked as the game went on. XD Like, first a cutscene where he tears off one tattered sleeve. Later in the game, another sleeve. Later in the game, there's an exposition shot of the building and you hear a RIIIIIIP and he's shirtless!! <3 <3 I distinctly remember that being a pretty awesome moment in my gaming life. Which isn't very fair, because guys get those WOOO HOT CHICK moments way more often. :c
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Post by M is for Morphine on Sept 12, 2012 8:53:30 GMT -5
Y'know, that's a curious point, cos that reminds me of a similar buttwhooping heroine, namely Rayne from the Bloodrayne series. She runs around in stiletto heels and leather and was the first fictional character ever to have been featured in Playboy (yep, the magazine, and I don't even know if there've been any others after her) and looks-wise, she's basically a teenage gamer's wet dream. But personality-wise, she's a ruthless assassin with dry snark and anything sex-related doesn't even remotely enter the gameplay. She's got her looks, and that's it. She doesn't act sexy, she doesn't take interest in any men in the series, and the one time a man took interest in her as a woman (more specifically, Nazi twin brothers who acted as a miniboss got leery-flirty with her), her response was "aw, aren't you precious. HACK SLASH DIE." And yet both her and Bayonetta seem to be hella popular. Which leads me to wonder how much of this sexism debate can get skewed with characters who can be redeemed, so-to-say, with "hot, but entirely serious". Because a lot of judgment on new games and the female charas in them is passed on looks alone. Which can end up skewed in the other direction, i.e. a female should look not-hot and covered-up in order to be taken seriously. And man would that be a can of worms. Yeah, maybe it's weird of me to take the stance I do. But like I say, I don't think sexy is inherently bad. I can totally understand girls who are completely done with sexy, who feel pressured by the constant 'this is the female ideal, one you'll probably never reach' sort of feeling. If someone else wanted to say Bayonetta was too sexist, I could see where they were coming from. I can understand them being really happy when someone like that cool AC woman shows up. But at the same time, there are sexy women with big ol' boobies in the world, and there's a place for them too. I think erasing them totally from the landscape would be sad in a different way. It's just, temperance is a virtue, you know? XD I appreciate people trying to strike a balance by introducing characters with a more average looking build. About the discussion being skewed, I see that as well. It would be more of a problem if they weren't normally right, though. Like Lollypop chainsaw. Man, I wanted to like that game. Suda51, who is normally not afraid to wield satire like a weapon, and the cute winks at classic horror... but it was just as bad as I feared. Maybe worse. Edit: sorry this post is so unfocused. I'm pretty tired. I guess when you boil it down, the attitude of the creator is the key factor. And that often includes the character design.
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Post by Komori on Sept 12, 2012 12:34:00 GMT -5
I think it's just the lack of balance. There's no problem with a boobilicious gal, even a skanky sexy gal. It's just more frustrating when that's the only female character in the game, or when every female in the game dresses the same level of immodesty. It's just the homogenizing of females into all sex-figures, instead of making them different.
Because, granted, most of the time when you play one character in a game (Kratos, Link, etc), you're going to get someone with a more appealing appearance. Super-buff or handsome guys, and super-sexy or beautiful women. It's just when you total up all the women in a game and they look ALL THE SAME compared to the breadth of variety for the males, that just feels way worse.
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Post by Ikkin on Sept 12, 2012 15:34:02 GMT -5
I think it's just the lack of balance. There's no problem with a boobilicious gal, even a skanky sexy gal. It's just more frustrating when that's the only female character in the game, or when every female in the game dresses the same level of immodesty. It's just the homogenizing of females into all sex-figures, instead of making them different. Because, granted, most of the time when you play one character in a game (Kratos, Link, etc), you're going to get someone with a more appealing appearance. Super-buff or handsome guys, and super-sexy or beautiful women. It's just when you total up all the women in a game and they look ALL THE SAME compared to the breadth of variety for the males, that just feels way worse. Well, I wouldn't say Kratos has an appealing appearance. He shows a lot of skin, but he's ugly as sin. =P In general, it seems like there's only one ideal female figure (which can sometimes branch out into three -- the cute teenager, the "standard"-proportioned young woman, and the busty "older" woman, who's usually still in her early twenties), compared to the male figure, which has several different ideals depending on what the character does. It'd be really nice if they could start working each character's way of life into their character design, and I don't think the guys in the audience would mind all too much. There certainly seem to be no lack of guys who appreciate Korra's impressive musculature, at least. And then, as far as modesty is concerned, there's a tendency to make immodesty incredibly tacky, no matter how widespread that immodesty is or is not. It doesn't take cues from real-life clothing worn by women who like to look sexy in their day-to-day lives, but fetishistic lingerie or something. It wouldn't take that much effort to create outfits that are neither embarrassing to look at nor any less attractive than the current standard.
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Post by Komori on Sept 12, 2012 18:06:32 GMT -5
Aww, I don't think Kratos is as ugly as sin. He'd be handsomer if he smiled, sure, but he's still got nice rugged features. Sure, he's no JRPG prettyboy, but I'd still put him in the "appealing" category. Pff, I'd date him. (If it weren't for his rage issues, that is.) I guess a better example would've been the Assassin's Creed guy, but I don't play that series so I don't know his name. Oh, Nathan Drake from Uncharted is also a good example. He's pretty hot too. (Haven't played that either, so someone please tell me if he pulls a Prince-of-Persia getting naked moment.)
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Post by Dju on Sept 12, 2012 19:43:58 GMT -5
I guess a better example would've been the Assassin's Creed guy, but I don't play that series so I don't know his name. Oh, Nathan Drake from Uncharted is also a good example. He's pretty hot too. (Haven't played that either, so someone please tell me if he pulls a Prince-of-Persia getting naked moment.) Oh yes, Assassin's Creed men have an appealing appearance indeed! XD Ubisoft is not afraid to fill them with scars or make games with versions of older Assassins (Ezio Auditore's life was told since young age until he was white haired), which is really appreciated by the public, but Ezio is handsome anyways, even at...50? 60? And the new Assassin, Connor, seems to follow the same path of good looks and ideal physical. It runs in the family. X] But what's funny is that they have all that "ideal male characters" don't! They got big noses, strong facial marks, dirty hair...but still looking good. Sorry for the huge pictures, they were the best I could find. D: Older Ezio still got it! And the picture bellow his is Connor!
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Post by Killix on Sept 12, 2012 20:00:24 GMT -5
Whether someone is attractive or not is one of those "your mileage may vary" things. XD
Personally, I don't find Link or Kratos or the Assassin's Creed dude attractive at all. *shrug*
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Post by Komori on Sept 12, 2012 20:45:21 GMT -5
But then, doesn't that drive home the complaint about how all the women look the same, yet all the men vary quite widely in appearance and level of attractiveness?
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Post by Huntress on Sept 13, 2012 8:48:21 GMT -5
We-ell, attractiveness is approached differently between genders. Men are highly visual-geared, so once the gaming industry landed on the few stock standards that work (varying a bit between the innocent fanservice girl and the oozing sex appeal, but basically, when in doubt, boobies) they stuck to it. Whereas women are much more unpredictable in what's appealing. Case in point, Kratos up there xD Some girl gamers will be all about the muscle, and some are all about the lanky prettyboys, and some are all about the scarred and brooding guys, etcetera, and there are games that appeal to all of the above. Whereas guy gamers only really get boobies taped to a shell. And, presumably, don't mind much.
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Post by Stal on Sept 13, 2012 9:31:53 GMT -5
Nah, there's more than just bustiness that they incorporate into the design. You have to have the complete figure and legginess to make the standard shell girl-character of sex appeal.
But they're all pretty well cookie cutter.
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Post by Thorn on Sept 14, 2012 1:55:54 GMT -5
Whereas women are much more unpredictable in what's appealing. Case in point, Kratos up there xD Some girl gamers will be all about the muscle, and some are all about the lanky prettyboys, and some are all about the scarred and brooding guys, etcetera, and there are games that appeal to all of the above. . Yeah, I dun like Kratos. But Ezio is alright. I AM HELPING TO PROVE YOUR POINT HERPDERP.
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Post by Ikkin on Sept 14, 2012 6:56:43 GMT -5
Whereas women are much more unpredictable in what's appealing. Case in point, Kratos up there xD Some girl gamers will be all about the muscle, and some are all about the lanky prettyboys, and some are all about the scarred and brooding guys, etcetera, and there are games that appeal to all of the above. Well, my thing is, I don't think Kratos has much to do with girl gamers at all. =P Some might find him attractive, but it has no more to do with the intentions of his designer than, say, finding Optimus Prime attractive. Lanky prettyboys are, at the very least, designed at least partially for women. Not sure where the Assassin's Creed characters fall, though presumably Ezio was designed to at least be attractive to women in-game.
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Post by Komori on Sept 14, 2012 8:22:18 GMT -5
I agree with Ikkin that the guy characters aren't really designed with women in mind. (Even the lanky prettyboys, which I think are just following the popular anime aesthetic) After all if designers WERE stopping to think, "We should consider what girl gamers like," there wouldn't be this problem. The male characters are just the ones that get the most development, and so appeal to more people in general, male or female.
Female protagonists will at least get some decent character development, if only because they're the main character and you wouldn't have any story if your protagonist is a giggling shell. Doesn't really change the fact that her appearance will be geared towards titillating the guys. (A sort of "If I'm going to have to play as a chick, I at least need some eye candy" mentality)
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Post by Ikkin on Sept 14, 2012 15:08:33 GMT -5
I agree with Ikkin that the guy characters aren't really designed with women in mind. (Even the lanky prettyboys, which I think are just following the popular anime aesthetic) After all if designers WERE stopping to think, "We should consider what girl gamers like," there wouldn't be this problem. The male characters are just the ones that get the most development, and so appeal to more people in general, male or female. Female protagonists will at least get some decent character development, if only because they're the main character and you wouldn't have any story if your protagonist is a giggling shell. Doesn't really change the fact that her appearance will be geared towards titillating the guys. (A sort of "If I'm going to have to play as a chick, I at least need some eye candy" mentality) Well, it depends on the lanky prettyboy in question. Square-Enix -- at least the portion that uses Tetsuya Nomura as a character designer -- often ends up offering flat-out lampshaded fanservice of its male characters, for instance. (It's probably not surprising that they end up with hordes of female cosplayers dressing as characters of both genders, considering) It's also pretty absurd that the eye-candy mentality requires such a limited standard of beauty. I'm sure most guys would be just as happy playing as any reasonably-attractive female character as they would playing as thong-and-pasties woman.
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