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Post by Blueysicle on Oct 8, 2021 21:22:20 GMT -5
With the recent NFT news and the general decline of the Neopets website, there is the very real possibility that Neopets' days are numbered. If that's the case, something that I've become concerned about is the fate of the Neopian Times and other creative contests. More specifically, what will happen to the twenty years worth of fanfiction and fanart that's been published. Since losing that much content would be an enormous shame, I proposed the question of whether or not it would be possible to create an archive so that even if the main site is gone, at least the fan content could survive off-site. Both Twillie and RielCZ have begun backing up portions of the Neopian Times and creative contests themselves, and I thought it would be apt to continue the conversation in a separate thread. One of the big things I'd like to get feedback on is the ethics of doing such an archive. With nearly 950 issues published over the course of over twenty years, it's flat-out impossible to get permission from every single person ever published to mirror their works onto an archive. Riel has stated that Rabbit ♠ has said that as long as proper credit is given and that it's stated that doing so is for purely archival purposes, it should be alright. Personally, I'm inclined to agree with her. And the reality is that a lot of media throughout history would be forever lost to time if not for people that copied and archived it without the permission of the original creators. But regardless of my opinion, I do still acknowledge that this is still very murky water to tread into, and that there could be people out there that very much do not want their work reposted to an off-site archive. If we don't want to go with the "better to ask for forgiveness than permission" sort of route, I can suggest the option of making an archive of Neopets fan content only from those that have given permission to have their works included. This would comprise of a much smaller pool of works and creators, but would sidestep the gray area of ethics I described above. Getting permission would still be quite the undertaking, however, and would probably require not only directly contacting creators still currently active on Neopets and posts on the Neoboards, but also posts on places like Twitter, Tumblr, and Reddit to seek out anyone that has retired from Neopets but doesn't want their works to be lost. (And if the end of Neopets is on the horizon, this would have be done very quickly) Those are just the ideas I can suggest, though. If anyone else can chime in with their opinions, thoughts, and ideas, by all means feel free to do so.
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Post by June Scarlet on Oct 8, 2021 21:52:51 GMT -5
Copyright and fan works are a tricky combination to begin with. Does the copyright stand with Neopets, or the original creator? It's an old debate. I think my favorite answer is that they share it. I think you're assuming that it stands mostly with the original creator, Blueysicle, however, what if it stands mostly with Neopets? I mean, technically in the terms and conditions Neopets says they can use whatever you submit for whatever they want. For the most part they've been respectful toward fanmade work, though. I actually think this debate can work in our favor, though. I mean, instead of seeing it as archiving thousands of content creators' works, we're just archiving a part of Neopets, one single entity.
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Post by Duke Pikachu on Oct 8, 2021 22:04:29 GMT -5
If you think the situation is dire and you want to do this (I imagine with a group as it would be a huge undertaking not to mention require a lot of data storing), then don't sweat about the details at this moment. As long as you copy the username(s) of the author(s) and aren't claiming any of the material to be your own, then you should be perfectly fine. As June Scarlet said, you're doing this to preserve a part of the Neopets site, you're not trying to make a profit. In addition, at the moment we don't know what fate has for Neopets. Maybe this Metaverse thing will fizzle out or, when launched, will be kept so far away from the Neopets site it would be business like usual. Which in that case you'll just have a back-up incase something happens. But if Neopets does truly end, then that's the time to question in what way do you release all the stories, articles, and comics you collected. And because of the uncertainty, I say not to worry about it. For now, if you (and a group) want, just archive as many Neopian Times content you can/want, and worry about what to do with them if that time comes.
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Post by Blueysicle on Oct 8, 2021 22:07:10 GMT -5
Copyright and fan works are a tricky combination to begin with. Does the copyright stand with Neopets, or the original creator? It's an old debate. I think my favorite answer is that they share it. I think you're assuming that it stands mostly with the original creator, Blueysicle , however, what if it stands mostly with Neopets? I mean, technically in the terms and conditions Neopets says they can use whatever you submit for whatever they want. For the most part they've been respectful toward fanmade work, though. I actually think this debate can work in our favor, though. I mean, instead of seeing it as archiving thousands of content creators' works, we're just archiving a part of Neopets, one single entity. I focused mostly on the feelings of the creators of the fan content because I am aware that Neopets does technically own the copyright to anything submitted to the site. And since Jellyneo has done great work archiving official Neopets content with no issue (I assume - I don't know what goes on behind the scenes in terms of copyright and permissions), I ran with the assumption that an archive would also not run afoul of copyright problems. Of course, we all know how the saying about assumptions goes, and I suppose there is the possibility that this is where Neopets draws the line in terms of their IP for whatever bizarre reason. Which boy, wouldn't that be something. Handing over the brand to greedy people that wish to turn it into a hollow shell of itself to milk it for very short-term profits is A-OK, but preserving labors of love from dedicated fans warrants booting up Lawyerbot.
EDIT: If you think the situation is dire and you want to do this (I imagine with a group as it would be a huge undertaking not to mention require a lot of data storing), then don't sweat about the details at this moment. As long as you copy the username(s) of the author(s) and aren't claiming any of the material to be your own, then you should be perfectly fine. As June Scarlet said, you're doing this to preserve a part of the Neopets site, you're not trying to make a profit. In addition, at the moment we don't know what fate has for Neopets. Maybe this Metaverse thing will fizzle out or, when launched, will be kept so far away from the Neopets site it would be business like usual. Which in that case you'll just have a back-up incase something happens. But if Neopets does truly end, then that's the time to question in what way do you release all the stories, articles, and comics you collected. And because of the uncertainty, I say not to worry about it. For now, if you (and a group) want, just archive as many Neopian Times content you can/want, and worry about what to do with them if that time comes. The funny thing is I did actually go out and buy a flash drive today for the purposing of storing the text-based Neopian Times entries (Since that would take up the least space and Twillie has been backing up some of the Comics entries) on my own regardless of the ultimate decision we may or may not come to. I'm not very tech-savvy, so I'd have to manually copy-and-paste it all into text files, but I have more free time than I should, so it'd give me something to do, lol. If an archive is decided to be a good idea and is made, then great - I would at least have a headstart. If not, then it'll just sit in my room collecting dust with no harm done.
If we want to start this project regardless of whether it sees fruition as an actual site or not, doing so with a group of people sounds like the best way to go, as you said. We could either do so semi-independently with people picking out which Neopian Times entries to back up on their own and this thread more or less being a suggestion to do so, or doing something more organized like assigning people to back up certain Issues or entry types. Whichever is preferred by anyone interested, really.
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Post by Twillie on Oct 8, 2021 22:46:55 GMT -5
In archiving NT comics, my concerns have lied less with copyright, since I assume that anyone who's submitted to the NT understands that they're in a way giving control of distribution to Neopets, thanks to that "we can use it however we like" disclaimer. There's a certain level of detachment once something is put in the NT, as you agree to place it in TNT's hands after that point. As such, I don't think people would get in much of a huff if their NT work is moved to a different part of the internet in the event that the NT poofs. I think so long as credit is given, there wouldn't be an issue in terms of ownership. As for possible company reactions, I'm also not too worried as I haven't heard of any trouble being given to those posting published fan content off site before, and money wouldn't be made from an archive like this so I don't see them really reacting/having grounds to take action. The main thing that I get iffy about, at least when it comes to comics, is if any contain content that the creator isn't comfortable with remaining online. And by that, I mean on the level of, "The way I drew myself back then is at odds with how I present now and I don't want that to be preserved." I think instead of a permission-only archive, there could be an opt-out system for any material users don't want archived? To a reasonable extent at least, so that material isn't being removed solely for the reason that someone cringes at their old art/writing. If the material is still tied to a creator's name or person and affects how they're perceived in a way that's harmful to them, then I wouldn't want to dig up old parts of their life that they no longer want public. A permission-only archive I fear would be more work than it's worth, as there'd be more dead ends than not of contacted creators never responding back, or it being impossible to trace an old username to wherever that person may be today, if they're even still online. It'd also take a great deal of time like you said, and I don't think maintaining contact with creators and the middlemen reaching out to them would be sustainable in the long run. Of course, this also leads to the question of what an archive for the creative contests may look like, assuming the need arises and that any and all ethical dilemmas are answered by that point. I haven't put much thought into this before, so I'm curious if others have a vision for where might it be held, how would it be organized, who would have access and control over it, etc.? But yeah, in the meantime I've honestly been following Pikachu's philosophy of preserve what I can now, worry about the nitty gritty later if we really do reach the point of losing the site. If I have material people don't want me to see, then I'm always open for them to tell me and I'll happily get rid of what I have and not save anything further from them that they don't want. I'm curious RielCZ , since you mentioned plans to a create script that would save NT content, how would that look and work? I just want to see if I should continue my work at saving comics, or if what you'd have in store would do my job better and faster. If nothing else, I'd be happy to share with others the creators whose comics I've already saved, who I have lined up, and my process for saving comics, if anyone wants to join my efforts. But even then, I've never expected to save every single comic in the NT, as I know that'd be too much for me, and I'm not sure it's a realistic goal even with multiple people if we're all saving manually. So if there's a better way to go about the comics, then I don't want to unnecessarily spend my time of course x3 But yeah, that's mostly scattered thoughts from me on the questions posed so far haha xD And also because this is a lot, I don't expect any one person to respond to everything I just spouted of course; I'm more just putting my thoughts and questions out into the ether, and if any of it is relevant or sparks discussion then that's cool too x3
I think it's a good conversation to have as the site continues to age, but I also don't think we're in crisis mode right now that everything has to be figured out soon as possible. Until the day definitively comes that the site is scheduled to shut down, these are interesting questions to mull over to better prepare for whatever the future may hold.
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Post by RielCZ on Oct 9, 2021 13:41:35 GMT -5
In general, I agree with the sentiments posted here. If we're going to provide an archive -- and I do believe we should, so the content is not "lost to time" -- an opt-out system seems a lot more feasible than an opt-in system. Either way, we can simply archive everything now and determine formal distribution strategies if/when the Neo site proper is shuttered. I'll also re-state what I said in the other thread: I got my NT script working and it is currently downloading away; I have it running in a loop and it is currently around Issue 570. Twillie , and to others interested, I have uploaded sample captures HERE, containing last Halloween edition and the Performing Arts collab. In an effort to conserve space and keep only what's necessary, I adopted the following convention: - Save the main page HTML, so as to record the general layout, date, quote, sponsorship, who's on the front page, etc.
- Save a JSON file that is the ordered index of that entire NT issue, including section, title, author(s), description, thumbnail image link, and original URL. (It gets "prettified" if opened with Firefox, not sure about other browsers.)
- Save the body / main content of each work in separate files that are named with the section # in the URL.
- Save the editorial HTML. I know JN archives the questions, but I still think it would be nice to save them in situ.
E.g., if the original URL is www.neopets.com/ntimes/index.phtml?section=582807&issue=918, and it's a short story in NT Issue 918, the main content HTML would be saved in 918/shorts/582807.html and its URL and accompanying metadata is found in the JSON file. For an idea of how it works-- The code is actually a refactoring of my "NT to Review Thread" scraper that examines and records the structure of the links, with the addition of actually following the links and saving the applicable content. The script is Python-based, currently command-line only, but is generally automatic: input a week and destination folder, and content downloads. I also have another Python-based script to verify that the downloaded content that should exist exists, e.g. to ensure there was not problems with the download; however, currently the verifier only checks filenames, and does not, at this time, compare the downloaded HTML to the content on the NT site. An entire NT edition takes between 2 and 5 min. to download, but I do give a few seconds of sleep between each request; I don't want to accidentally DOS the Neo servers or anything. The only things I'm not explicitly saving are the non-comic images, e.g. the thumbnails and special edition backgrounds. I could, without too much difficulty, write a script to trace through the files and download any referenced images, but a) I wasn't sure if that was truly necessary because that isn't (usually) fan content, and b) I'm not sure whether JN / Dr. Sloth is backing up images.neopets.com; I know there is a Dr. Sloth category for Neopian Times Images. Thoughts on this would be appreciated. For pre-150 issues that use a different template, I would need to refactor the code again. So, perhaps coordinated manual effort can be put there, for now? Anyway, to those interested, feel free to check out the sample I posted, and let me know what you think / if it works / what should be changed. As to what an archive should look like... I have some ideas, with the one I tend toward as a streamlined mirror of what exists now but with greater search functionality. Though, that's ultimately a discussion for later.
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Post by Blueysicle on Oct 9, 2021 14:28:49 GMT -5
Twillie : My concern was more or less that though people give the rights to their content to Neopets when they submit to the site, they don't give their permission for unaffiliated people to mirror it offsite. I know that (Just by sitting on the sidelines while looking at fanart, mind) reposting without permission is considered a big no-no in the online art world, and I was worried if archiving the NT would qualify as reposting. I think that we'd be in the right to make an archive -as you and others have also said- but I just wonder if other people would disagree. And perhaps I'm simply just too jaded, but I've seen companies come down on fans over copyright issues when said company is legally in the right but are ultimately shooting themselves in the foot by stifling the creativity of their fanbase *coughNintendocough* so I did want to throw that out there. (And I do apologize on that note if I'm coming across as overly cynical with my spitballing - I just want to make sure as many possibilities are put out in the open so that any potential problems don't come as a surprise or sudden obstacle later)
That is a valid concern too, yes. Especially with something as old as Neopets, there's bound to be fanwork that no longer reflects who their creators are in the present day and/or is deeply uncomfortable for them now. I think an opt-out system could work, though would it require some sort of proof that the person asking is indeed the original creator of the work in question, or simply go on the honor system? (With the former, it might be unreasonable or impossible in cases to provide that sort of proof. With the latter, I would worry about trolls looking to cause harm.)
Personally, I've always felt that the thumbnails have provided a small, but important piece of flavor to Neopian Times entries, especially when they were custom images made for that specific story. I know the saying goes "never judge a book by its cover" but the reality is that the cover does leave an impression, and that the thumbnails are more or less the "covers" for NT entries. So if possible, I would like to see those saved as well. That's my opinion on it, at least.
Last I looked, I think Issue 23 is the absolute earliest issue that can be accessed and that those before it are lost to time, right? I'm hesitant to break the ongoing weekend strike (Unless the situation with the Neopets site somehow takes a sharp nosedive within the next 48 hours) but come Monday afternoon I could start backing up starting there. Like I said before, I am not a tech-savvy person, so copying-and-pasting is the best I'd be able to manage on that front. xD
So I think I concur with you guys that -for now at least- anybody interested in archiving the NT should just do so now, then we can worry about putting it together if and when the time comes, whether that be years or months down the road. I do think it's a good thing to at least have these discussions now when things are merely uncertain and not when the situation has devolved into a full-on crisis, so I very much appreciate the feedback!
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Post by Twillie on Oct 9, 2021 15:00:41 GMT -5
Ooh, yeah this is really cool! And a much better way to gather up all the NT content without taking countless man hours xD I think this script is great to gather all the basic content, and then from there we can manually match titles and authors to the appropriate files and do whatever else we may need/want for organization. I love it \o/ I've been saving thumbnails for comics, but only custom ones made by the creator or another player. Thumbnails that come from the Neopets site I haven't bothered with, since I also figured that they're already saved elsewhere like on Dr. Sloth. Of course, that may be a different story for written stories that have custom thumbnails, but made by TNT. People might want those two products to stay attached, but that might also come down to manual saving unless we did end up saving all thumbnails (if I'm understanding that correctly). If we want, I'd be happy to keep collecting thumbnails while issues are saved, since that's not too intensive a process on its own. Ah yeah, pre-150 issues are, uh, rather special in set up I've discovered xD There's a number of little quirks, sometimes unique to specific issues. Like for Issue 71, a number of comic creators did a storytelling-style collaboration where individual comics linked together to tell one story. Here's one comic from the chain as an example of the format. There's a couple old holiday issues like that I believe, although I don't remember specific weeks off the top of my head.
What impacted me most is I found out that a majority of comics aren't singular images, but rather are spliced into 2-3 (or more) images. Sometimes they're divided by panels, sometimes panels are cut in half between the images. It's led me to either screenshot the comic with the snipping tool or save the multiple images if the comic requires scrolling read. That might mean a manual effort of splicing comics back together after they're saved, but that'd thankfully be doable I feel.
But yeah, a heads up for a couple of the quirks I've run into in case they impact how you write the script. I'm sure if nothing else, were we to save the basic content like you're doing now with the modern NT format, then we could manually go through and iron out inconsistencies the older issues had and fill in missing info haha.
I don't think I have any changes or suggestions to what you've made, unless any of the things I mentioned doing manually are actually doable through script x3 Overall, very exciting! :3
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Post by Twillie on Oct 9, 2021 15:58:46 GMT -5
Blueysicle Ahh yeah, I can see what you mean in regards to reposting. That's true it's often frowned upon on social media, and I'm not too involved in online art communities to know where the lines are drawn for it. Looks like those here are in agreement that as an archive, our case would be different and in the right, but I totally understand the worry that the creators in different circles might see it differently. I'm inclined to err on the side of "ask for forgiveness, not permission," which tbf is a philosophy I'm biased towards in general xD Might be worth getting feedback from other facets of the Neopets community as we go, like from other fansites and forums/servers, since this would be an issue regarding the Neopets community climate specifically.
Nah you're good, I can see why you want to be cautious given other corporation's histories. I'm much less familiar with other companies' behavior in those regards, so I have less perspective on that. I wonder in the case of Nintendo and similar companies if it's a matter of brand integrity and wanting to keep an iron grip on that name recognition.
For Jellyneo staff members, have you run into or know of any copyright troubles from archiving the different site features? June Scarlet Herdy Kat
That's a good question, honor system vs proof of identity. I can see pros and cons to either, although my initial reaction was to say "honor system." I think for similar reasons like you said, since it may be difficult if not impossible for someone to prove they had a certain account from over 15 years ago. We might have to go on a case-by-case basis and work with what any potential person is able to let us know.
(Also yup, Old School Issue 23 is the earliest you can access!)
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Post by June Scarlet on Oct 9, 2021 16:09:18 GMT -5
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Post by Duke Pikachu on Oct 10, 2021 0:17:55 GMT -5
The main thing that I get iffy about, at least when it comes to comics, is if any contain content that the creator isn't comfortable with remaining online. And by that, I mean on the level of, "The way I drew myself back then is at odds with how I present now and I don't want that to be preserved." I think instead of a permission-only archive, there could be an opt-out system for any material users don't want archived? To a reasonable extent at least, so that material isn't being removed solely for the reason that someone cringes at their old art/writing. If the material is still tied to a creator's name or person and affects how they're perceived in a way that's harmful to them, then I wouldn't want to dig up old parts of their life that they no longer want public. A permission-only archive I fear would be more work than it's worth, as there'd be more dead ends than not of contacted creators never responding back, or it being impossible to trace an old username to wherever that person may be today, if they're even still online. It'd also take a great deal of time like you said, and I don't think maintaining contact with creators and the middlemen reaching out to them would be sustainable in the long run. That's a good question, honor system vs proof of identity. I can see pros and cons to either, although my initial reaction was to say "honor system." I think for similar reasons like you said, since it may be difficult if not impossible for someone to prove they had a certain account from over 15 years ago. We might have to go on a case-by-case basis and work with what any potential person is able to let us know.
(Also yup, Old School Issue 23 is the earliest you can access!)
Here's my thinking if the Archive has to be made: INITIAL. At its initial creation, everything is posted up. No different from how the current Neopian Times is, why should we treat it differently (at least initially)? Getting EVERYONE'S permission is an impossibility, however I would imagine this archive site (which I could see being affiliated with this very forum, Jellyneo, and other fansites who would also become a Neopet archive, also likely spread word-of-mouth) would draw the attention of former NT authors to at the very least see their entries are on there. Now, if that happens, this is when we enter the DEEP hypotheticals: 1. Wanting to be "properly" credited. I actually imagine THIS being a bigger issue. With Neopets gone so are these player's accounts so there's no way to redirect the entry to a person. Some users may decide "I like my old Neopian Times work, I want this archive version to directly point back to my Email/FaceBook/Twitter/etc.". Now, as said, without a Neopets account it would be hard to confirm if the person posting is being truthful. If this happens, first we can try a simple investigation. First, ask them which exact entries do they want credited to them. Now time to check the entries. If the entries have different authors, that's going to need an explanation (and a possible justification to deny the request). If they all belong to the same author, but there's also a batch of other entries made by the same author, why didn't they specify them? Meanwhile, if they have a Twitter/Facebook can check that out to see what they have posted. I imagine a lot of the time if they're trying to claim their old work they probably have writing/drawing as a career/hobby thus likely post up their work on social media sites. If we see that's the case, more credibility to them; if not, while not a nail in the coffin, it would be a curious note they could be asked about (why link this back to them if they seemingly don't have other works they done posted on their social media). Then there's also just checking the person's email address and any other social presence to see if there's no curious behavior that would lead us to doubt they are who they're claiming to be. 2. Wanting a credit/entry removed. The one you're worried about. * Focusing on credit removal first, maybe a previous author sees all this as old skeletons being dug up, think it can be linked back to them, and want to dissociate with their old work. After doing some the investigation work mentioned above, if it's concluded they likely are the author, first I say trying to fine a middle ground. Instead of completely removing the author's name, could we just censor some of the name out. That way, if it turns out the person was lying and the true author goes looking for their work, they'll hopefully have a way to find their work. Now, if the person completely wants the complete username removed, in that case, the username should just be changed to an ID number string (that way if they have multiple entries they can still be linked together). Now, if the person was lying and the true author comes forward, if they can give us the correct username I would say that would be proof enough to automatically put the author's username back up. Hopefully if the initial person was a faker they got their laughs and won't bother checking; but if the initial person does come back to complain well now we got to figure out what's going on which would be a case-by-case situation concerning the amount of knowledge each claimant knows. * Going into your scenario, if the person just wants the material gone because it represents an old part of them they don't want any form of existing. If an investigation comes up showing they are likely the author, well then we have no choice if we want to be ethical we got to remove them. HOPEFULLY that would be the end of that, but if we get someone who says they're the real author and want to know why one of their entries is missing we have no come to a headache situation. Like with above, prove this person is likely the author, I say we repost the work and see what happens. If the original person was a troll hopefully they got their laughs and don't come back. However if they do gotta figure out who is the real author. * Now, if someone wants to remove an entry of there's because they think the art or old humor is just cringy (but not inappropriate), maybe in that case we can try to talk them out of it or convince them to just censor/remove their username. I don't want to say we can tell them "no" completely as, at the end of the day, it's still their work, thus if they want it gone it has to go, but I think if we feel the case for taking it down isn't quite justifiable we can try fighting against it if we feel the material in it deserves to be saved (because I also imagine cases where nothing really would be lost if we remove the material; but that's a decision that likely a group would have to make). * However I think we should outright deny another person wanting an entry they don't own removed unless the entry is judged to have something inappropriate in it (which should be done via a group). Honestly I don't think this would be a major issue, but may still happen. 3. Wanting to change/update/correct an entry. A REALLY far off scenario but not one I would take off the table of happening, an author sees their old work and goes "you know what, I can do better now/think this could be redone". Now, obviously this would concern what type of entry it is. * If it's a comic and the author (after we investigate to make sure its likely them) says they drew a better version of it (or corrected a panel they didn't like), we gotta decide what would be the best course of action. While the author has a right to their work, at the same time this is an archive. It's one thing wanting to remove it, it's another to change it. First thing I think should be done is explain this is an Archive meant to preserve all the NT entries, replacing the old entry with a "better" version defeats the purpose of it. If they still want to update it, second thing would be asking if they can host the updated version on their own end and we can simply add a link to it wherever it is (Twitter, Deviantart, Imgur, etc.), that way we preserve the original but people know there's a better done version out there. If they are a pain insistent on changing the old work on the page itself, now we come to a point where you gotta decide if you want to make a stand or not. If it was me, I would tell them we'll at most we'll link to the "better" version, but we're not removing the old one unless it had something ethically wrong with it. This is an Archive, you had no problem when it was in the Neopian Times, sorry you don't like it now but the purpose is to preserve the art. The Neopian Times showed that, no matter the art talent of the user, all kinds of entries were accepted and would go against the message if every artist who just didn't like their old work to update over it. But, that's just my take, if the Archive ever needs to come into existence that's obviously a discussion that needs to be done with those who run it. * When it comes to written work (or comic dialogue), if the author contacts us and says they see a lot of grammar errors, I don't see the issue with correcting those as they're not supposed to be there anyway (bit annoying to fix in a comic but if seen possible and doesn't impact the comic's material don't see the harm updating the image with the correct grammar & spelling). It gets more complicated if they want to rewrite a part of it. Maybe its just a sentence or two, maybe it's entire paragraphs, but they don't like how they wrote it and want to/have re-written it. If it comes to that point a group discussion would need to be done whether such thing is justifiable, I imagine it would be a case-by-case basis. Like, if they just want to make it more "fancy" sounding than I think they could be told "no", but if they want to rewrite it because it sounds immature when it's not supposed to be maybe they have a justifiable reason there. It should absolutely be rejected if what they write completely changes what the part they've rewritten was going for and it would affect the rest of the story/article. I don't think it would be wrong to tell them that sometimes you gotta let things be as they are; learn from the mistakes of George Lucas. 4. Want to add something or make note of something. I think in most cases this is a hard "no". The ONLY scenario I can think of is an addition of an author note, and even that would need a good justification. BTW, I think a lot of this is going to have to work on honor system, and being this is the internet, I have no doubt there would be some cases conjured by jerks/trolls of conflict. Also, there may be times we have to set our foot down and go " we cannot confirm anything, therefore the entry & author's username remains". But let's not worry about that for right now. The only things I'm not explicitly saving are the non-comic images, e.g. the thumbnails and special edition backgrounds. I could, without too much difficulty, write a script to trace through the files and download any referenced images, but a) I wasn't sure if that was truly necessary because that isn't (usually) fan content, and b) I'm not sure whether JN / Dr. Sloth is backing up images.neopets.com; I know there is a Dr. Sloth category for Neopian Times Images. Thoughts on this would be appreciated. I agree with Blueysicle that, at least for some of them, you should be saving them. If you don't want to save them all, though this would require more work, go through the images and pick & choose the ones you feel have a "strong relation" to the story. Notably the custom ones, either made by the user or TNT on occasion. Twillie : My concern was more or less that though people give the rights to their content to Neopets when they submit to the site, they don't give their permission for unaffiliated people to mirror it offsite. I know that (Just by sitting on the sidelines while looking at fanart, mind) reposting without permission is considered a big no-no in the online art world, and I was worried if archiving the NT would qualify as reposting. I think that we'd be in the right to make an archive -as you and others have also said- but I just wonder if other people would disagree.
It's all about context. NOW you can't post an archive because the Neopian Times is still up and Neopets is still an active site, I imagine the author would rather you look up their work in the Neopian Times which has a link that connect you to all of their work than somewhere offline. However, if the site shutters, the Neopian Times is going down with and the pages will no longer be available. NOW in that case I think it's perfectly reasonable to then create an Archive site cause now there's no way to see these stories and articles (maybe the Wayback Machine caught a batch of issues, but wouldn't be surprised if it'll have a lot of gaps). So, basically it's not okay now at the Neopian Times exist, but if it ever goes kapoop it's fair game. And I highly doubt JS will care let alone go after an archive site, would be surprised if the big wigs even know the Neopian Times is a thing. They may as well try going after all the Neopet entries on Fanfic.org and Deviantart.
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Post by Twillie on Oct 10, 2021 13:43:07 GMT -5
Interestingly, this conversation came up of its own accord on the Neopets Reddit discord server when someone asked if there's a backup of the NT out there in the event the site goes down. I chimed in a bit during the conversation to let them know this is also being discussed on the forum, but I saw a mix of opinions on whether it'd be right to archive others' fan content were the NT to disappear. I think they can be boiled down as such:
-You would need express permission to publicly archive any creator's work, and the desire to archive or the fact that the archive wouldn't make money does not override the consent of the original creators.
-It would be good to archive, but it should be done through a reputable site or the Wayback Machine. (however the latter wouldn't be possible, as Neopets has that site blocked and the NT cannot be archived with the WBM)
-There should be an archive, and there wouldn't be anything ethically wrong with it.
So, an interesting conversation, although unfortunately cut short when it changed subjects lol.
I didn't get a sense of majority opinion, as a couple people were adamant on either the "it's completely fine" or "completely not fine" end, but overall there seemed to be some desire for an NT backup, but an uncertainty on the best way to go about it. Anyone else who was a part of that conversation or who saw it, feel free to chime in with your own takeaways in cased I missed anything haha.
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Post by Ziporen on Oct 10, 2021 16:25:27 GMT -5
I am not at home, so it's difficult to say everything that I want to now. I will note that there are still stories and images from those early 2000 issues (and at least one BC round) on the image servers, even if some are difficult to find the URLs for now.
If no one else is already doing them, I can look into doing the AG and BC entries... or any/all other spotlights, really. But I can't start until tomorrow evening.
Edit: Home. Have started saving the AG.
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Post by Blueysicle on Oct 11, 2021 13:50:06 GMT -5
I noticed something that may become an issue regarding the earliest issues of the Neopian Times.
I joined Neopets in 2003, which by then the Neopian Times had more or less had an organized system going on regarding submissions and properly crediting people by username. I don't know if anyone is still here at the NTWF that was around in the very oldest days of the NT that can shed some light on things, but the impression I'm getting is that you had to put in your name manually when submitting back then. There are some usernames, some very obvious pseudonyms...
...and some full, real names.
That might be a privacy concern, I feel. This seems like a relic of the pre-COPPA days, because it does shock me a little that the full names of what I would imagine to be kids at the time were being published like that. None of the author names are hyperlinked to their actual Neopets accounts, for that matter. So that's another big ethical concern that would need ironing out, because I can very easily imagine that people might not want a Neopets fanfic they wrote as a kid to be linked to their real-life identity.
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Post by Twillie on Oct 11, 2021 20:58:41 GMT -5
Ooh yeah, that does sound like a concern. I'm not familiar with how NT submissions worked back in the day, but I've seen what you're talking about at least with some of the oldest entries' credits. I'm having trouble thinking of any workarounds for that right now, of how to still give credit to entries without disclosing personal information that was originally given as a child, but hopefully there's a good solution to that that I'm not seeing.
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