Let's talk about Amazon.

[Deleted]

It's Prime Day, which is a good time as any to talk about the online bookstore-turned-tech behemoth a lot of us use daily! So far in 2019, for instance, I've bought bottle brushes, earbuds, a handheld vacuum cleaner, a book stand, a water pitcher with a built-in filter, a travel mug, keyboard covers, herbal supplements, and a couple of books. Maybe you're in a place without many affordable stores nearby, and Amazon's your best bet for getting what you need. Maybe you or someone you know is unable to leave home and needs things delivered to get by. Maybe you're a college student who can't afford your textbooks through the bookstore, but can find it for a refreshingly low price on Amazon. You might like to watch TV on Prime Video, and someone you know might use that Alexa speaker.

Perhaps you're using an Amazon-held site or service without even realizing it. IMDb, for instance, is a subsidiary of Amazon. So are Audible, Abebooks, Zappos, Goodreads, Book Depository, ComiXology, Twitch, and Whole Foods. Founder and CEO Jeff Bezos also owns the Washington Post. Even if you don't use any of these, the odds are strong that you've used (or more accurately used a site that uses) Amazon Web Services' cloud computing platforms.

Amazon is super convenient for me, as a consumer, and for many people I know. But it comes with its costs and controversies.

For one, there's the treatment of its workers. You might have seen an article or social media post about planned strikes for Prime Day this year and before. Fulfillment centers are busy, busy places. One in Scotland was accused of having "intolerable working conditions." Ex-employees in England reported being made to work long hours with breaks few and far between, and their movements monitored by GPS trackers. Similar stories have cropped up across the Atlantic. Workers who don't meet high productivity standards can be--and are--quickly let go. Meanwhile, Amazon drivers in the UK have reported being made to work over 11 hours per day (which is illegal), given no time for toilet breaks, and paid well below the minimum wage. The list goes on.

This initially grew out of a discussion on Prime Day and the strikes, so this opener is going to focus on that. But there are also concerns about privacy and the use of consumers' data, facial recognition software, conflicts of interest stemming from Bezos' ownership of the Washington Post, Bezos' superlative wealth, and Amazon's sheer amount of power as a corporation from which dissatisfied consumers can't turn away so easily.

What do you think?

[Gelquie]

Yeah, Amazon has done more and more sketchy things in its time. Especially as its grown bigger, and grows still as it acquires new services or absorbs them (as with the Washington Post). It's an example of two huge problems. One with businesses absorbing others so much that they end up having an effective monopoly (hello Disney), and the other with a growing dependence on technology and tech innovation but without the experience and legislation to ensure it doesn't get misused.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying tech is a bad thing. It's done wonders, and I do think there should be advancements. But it seems they grow faster than legislation can make ethical. It doesn't help that there aren't too many tech-savvy people in those positions, so they may not understand the implications. Perhaps that'll be resolved in the future as we age and people who grew up with the internet will be eligible, but that's a long while to wait.
I guess it's just partly that the internet is relatively young, and has grown so fast. And big companies or people who can afford to do so seem to be taking advantage of that to gain foothold over consumers or other companies, even if it can be highly ethically questionable.

Amazon has also modeled itself to be highly user-friendly. Which is normally a good thing! It's easy to find something obscure, and often Amazon will fulfill sellings done by other companies, thus keeping them in the transaction while also making it convenient for consumers who don't have to cross-list multiple different sites for good prices and whether the company is trustworthy. And Amazon has only grown in popularity, and now it's the main thing. And that can be good thing for some people, for the reasons you said. Some people live far out or can't go shopping easy, and thus rely on such services, or perhaps they're just too poor for any other option. (And for the strike, I make exemptions for those people, especially if they have no other choice, or reliable choice.)

For the strike, I participate in them by not participating in the sales, because I think their working conditions are reprehensible, and it's not good that they don't listen to people when they talk about the poor working conditions. Considering the giants that the company is, I feel they can afford to at least give people higher wages. They're basically expecting people to act like automatic robots, to the point they forget they're people.

At the same time, I'm not sure how much good the strike will do. People will still use these services, mostly people who don't know about the strike or don't care, or who rely on Amazon. And the financial losses can be easily absorbed by the company. So the strike is more about sending a message, and for those data analysts paying attention, through precise data and figures showing dropped sales and customerships.
Question is if that would be enough to get Amazon to heighten ethical considerations. I hope so, but personally, I have my doubts. They will still rake in money and have a high customer-ship; they're not going away any time soon. And there's nothing much in place stopping them. They would ultimately lose very little in the long run, and without that personal stake, it's harder to instill that personal responsibility in them.

I personally think that the main way to go about this would be through regulations. That way these workers don't have to suffer under appalling work conditions. But I'm not confident that such things would be passed at this point.

In the meantime, I'll do what little I can and not participate in the sales while there's strikes unless there's just no other way around it. I may be one data point, but maybe I'm wrong and it'll add up enough to mean something.


(This has been the uninformed opinions of a non-economist who may well not have the whole story, but is still very concerned by the state of things and believe there are problems.)

[Moni]

I was surprised that I don't really use Amazon products that much. huh. The last time I've used Amazon was... three? years ago to buy a textbook, then I just learned how to pirate too-expensive textbooks lol. I log onto Goodreads like once a year, and Mixer is just kinda better than Twitch. So I guess I'll continue to wean myself off Amazon products and use them when I need to.

I mean, yeah, we sort of do need more vigorous antitrust and monopoly laws. The idea/supreme court precedent that mONOPOliES are BAd oNLY iF thEY aFFEct coNSuMeR pRICing! is fundamentally just kind of... dumb? Like sure it's technically more efficient, but it affects innovation, labor markets, etc etc, which can be worse for an economy in the long run. Smarter people, who happen to be economists and such, than I have made this point but supergiant corporations that have that much of a strangehold on a particular market that allows them to go wild should just realistically be broken up.

It's one of the reasons I like Elizabeth Warren, because she seems to have a similar idea. People always say to march and unionize but at least in the US... unions are kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place thanks to our weak labor laws. Unions are either powerless or go 100% to protect any kind of employee no matter what (hi, police union!) because that's how the framework is set up; you can't really have functioning unions without the laws to back it up. Consumers can't really protest too much because Amazon is really the only choice sometimes... so the laws have to change on that end.

[Ginz ❤]

I recently found out that Book Depository is an Amazon subsidiary and it made me so sad. I loved Book Depository because it's a super convenient and affordable way for me to get books in English. Most bookstores here do tend to have a "Foreign Language" section, but none has a huge selection. You can usually only find bestsellers. It really amazed me how Book Depository offered free worldwide shipping. International shipping is expensive! Having to pay just as more (or even more, sometimes) for shipping as you do for whatever you're buying really makes you think twice about your online purchases... I really liked not having to worry about that. Of course it has a catch, it was too good to be true!

I have heard about the awful working conditions and terrible wages of Amazon workers, and I am worried about it monopolizing the market and putting smaller companies out of business because they can't compete. For those reasons, I don't want to support Amazon if I can help it.

I have definitely bought things from Amazon in the past. I like my Goodreads account, I was a fan of Book Depository, and I watch Twitch streams sometimes. It's hard to detach yourself completely from a company that's so widespread. I do try to avoid those sites and services when I know there's a strike, but it feels like very little help. It's not like I'm using them on the daily anyway. What else can I do?

[Ian Wolf-Park]

I might point out that when a chain or store closes (like Toys R Us or Sears Canada), most people are quickly blaming Amazon for the store closing because of its monopoly like influence. It's true, to a certain extent, but not to the extent that people are claiming to be as there are other factors in play that caused the store to close. Amazon is only a part of the problem, but most people are not seeing the whole picture.

I have used Amazon or its services in the past. Notably, I have read articles from the Washington Post on MSN (another classic example of a monopoly, thanks to Microsoft, although its grips has been weakened, especially with various browsers), so it does make it hard to boycott Amazon or its products.

[Breakingchains]

I hate to go full commie pinko scum but, there is no ethical consumption under late capitalism.

I've tried my best to boycott Amazon for the past year or two. But let's say tomorrow someone assassinates Jeff Bezos and there is much rejoicing they completely clean up their act, and to celebrate I order some electronics and, IDK what's the last thing I bought on Amazon, a pack of bras or something.

I have no idea where any of those items came from originally. Typically China. The mining for minerals to make circuitboards, etc. is historically one of the most corrupt and violent industries in the world. You can see where this is going. I would go so far as to say that nothing I bought off Amazon (or heck--possibly at all, in my lifetime) was ever free from some kind of exploitative labor somewhere down the production chain, even when it was like 2001 and I was like "Wow we can buy things on the internet machine." We can force Amazon to do better, and that would be wonderful for Amazon's workers, but if we then continue merrily buying whatever, we've just turned our eyes from the problem.

And as others have already touched on, effective boycotts are hard, because large corporations have their fingers in almost every slice of the pie in some form or another. I'm not advocating complacency or saying don't boycott Amazon (by all means, boycott the snot out of Amazon) I'm just saying if something systemic doesn't change in a very big way, we're kidding ourselves. The system is so rigged that there's no longer a whole lot to be done at the consumer level.

except bring back the guillotine

I know I know, because that ended so well the first time

[PFA]

I don't really have much to add about the work ethics stuff. It sucks that the work environment is that bad. I don't blame people who want to boycott Amazon over that, though I also agree that I don't feel like it would have that much of an impact, given the scale of Amazon's userbase.

What I can talk about is Twitch, because I saw some talk floating around during the strike about how you should boycott Twitch because it's owned by Amazon. My issue with that is, well... for example, my favorite Twitch streamer literally makes a living off of his stream. He treats it as his job because of some generous viewers who donate enough for him to make a sustainable income from it. And Prime Day happened to be part of his regular stream schedule—his "work hours" if you will—so he streamed then. I wouldn't have blamed him if he decided to take that day off, but he didn't, and I stopped by to watch because I wanted to support him. It's not his fault that Amazon has shady business practices, and I'm not going to stop supporting him just because he uses a platform owned by them.

I guess what my point is is like... I don't know that it's really fair to boycott literally everything owned by Amazon? Because I'm sure Twitch isn't the only Amazon subsidiary that has people just trying to make an honest living from it. It's important to consider who you're actually hurting when you're boycotting something.

[Zoey]

Amazon is a company that started off admirably--just Jeff Bezos working non-stop in a tiny room, selling books with very low profit margins to get a reliable base of buyers that he can later expand on. Jeff Bezos did it well--too well; his data analytics and undercutting skills have rocketed Amazon to heights seen only by Google, Apple, and Microsoft. It's admirable, but I think it's bad when even Walmart has better reputation for working conditions and pays more taxes than your company does, even though your company technically makes more money.

The whole tax thing is another ground for debate, though. Amazon registers as an LLC for the tax benefits that it offers, while Walmart registers as a corporation because they want other benefits. But I think there's something wrong with the system when you pay zero taxes. Sure, Amazon creates jobs of dubious working conditions and puts tons of research into innovation, but does that deem the company worthy of not contributing to the federal government and instead funneling the profits to its executives?

We have allowed Amazon to grow to the point where it might be too big to boycott, as many lower-income families may now rely on Amazon's services for cheap goods (although I advise everyone to double-check if your local Walmart or similar for the best prices! Lots of cheaper items on Amazon are scaled up in price to cover the shipping, even with Prime, and it may be much cheaper to just pick it up locally). I think the only ways Amazon can be brought down is if another company manages to steal all of Amazon's customers, or if the federal government finally steps in.

I for one am also not impressed with Amazon's current selection of goods. For every innovative item on Amazon, there's a flood of cheaper imitations made in China listed in tandem with the original design. I think encouraging these goods to flood the market is also severely harming businesses elsewhere; China has a governmental system that subsidizes their manufacturing process, and human labor is unfortunately cheap as chips over there, which allows them to sell products at absurdly low prices that practically no one else can compete with. They also have no regards for the concept of intellectual property (which is part of the reason why the trade war exists, and I will admit that at the very least, the idea of protecting American intellectual property and giving our businesses a chance is solid; the execution is very much debatable), hence why there are so many cheaper knockoffs on Amazon. The saying "you get what you pay for" totally applies, and the inability of companies to compete with them on Amazon is really hurting product quality and innovation, as mentioned earlier by others. But perhaps that is also partially due to modern consumerism, which, thanks to instant gratification services like Amazon, has skyrocketed to heights we've never seen before.

In all, I totally support the workers' cause, but even so I imagine the vast majority of supporters still use Amazon (and maybe the workers themselves do as well). The main issue is that we have no alternative that can completely replace Amazon in providing the same set of goods and services, although it's hard to believe that 10 or 15 years ago, this was not the case.

[Deleted]

So Amazon also hires people/bots to defend it on Twitter. That's something.

[Draco]

Having worked at Amazon as a Temp Warehouse worker, during the holidays, for 5 years in a row... I can confirm that almost everything said about the terrible working conditions and such are true. Those 2-4 months of working there are always terrible (only one year was good).

Work hours are crazy. 10-11 hours a day for 5-6 days a week. For some jobs, that's not terrible, but when you're on your feet for all that time, nonstop moving, with little time to stop or sit, it's pretty bad.

We're given time off for lunch and two 15min breaks in the morning and afternoon. However there's a big catch to those. The breaks, are actually half of that. We're supposed to work until the bell, then take our carts to the correct location to drop it off at, then walk to the break room, and be back to work before the bell rings. Depending where you are, by the time you make it to the break room, you already have to turn around and head back. No break. Many of us cheated and would grab the next item we had to collect, take it with us to the drop off area, and scan it a minute or so before the bell, and start walking to the break room early. Usually got in trouble.
As for bathroom breaks... Yeah, they want you to use your breaks for that. You CAN stop for them, but you'll usually get someone popping up to ask what you were doing between this and this time when you weren't working -_-

Some of the time they would call us in for overtime because they expected a large volume of orders, but only find it was a fraction of what was expected. So there would be hundreds of us standing around with no work. But we couldn't go home because they still believed in the predictions. All of us standing around doing nothing? We get in trouble later for not doing any work for the time we were waiting for work. Eventually if the manager caves in, we'll be sent home early (still get in trouble next day for clocking in and doing nothing for the time we were forced to show up most likely). Or the manager decides to throw us in departments we weren't trained in to work there for the day. Where again, we get in trouble for not knowing what we're doing, but being treated like we should know.

And I was working in the Winter, where it was mostly cold outside, and inside was still in the 90s (F). There was one side building where I worked that they always suggested you wear jacket in because it didn't have a heater (felt great honestly, my manager picked up I liked it there and would send me there for most of the day at times. That was the year I enjoyed my work, but it wasn't the hard labor picking side I usually did). I heard stories from the other workers how in the summer it would be hotter then it was outside. The AC would be on, but it barely did anything. They would have to open the loading doors for air to blow into the building better, but still doesn't help much...

[Ryanruff13]

I've actually been a huge fan of Amazon lately, between the convenience that it offers to me who can't easily go to a store, and Jeff Bezos' story (seriously, the initiative he took back in 1994 to open it? Freaking awesome.)

But yes, that's definitely not to say that Amazon doesn't pose serious risks to society, between how they're pretty much crushing small businesses as discussed throughout this thread, Jeff Bezos' character as a person (e.g. his outbursts against employees and his affair against MacKenzie Bezos), and their workplace conditions as also discussed.

I could write a lot on the subject, particularly with the complex political situation on how to hold Amazon accountable and limit its monopolistic power without throwing out the baby with the bathwater (so to speak) and causing more damage to the economy, but in the meantime (since I'm rushed), my main contribution to this thread? Another confirmation of their workplace practices.

[Ryanruff13]

Double post with an update: Amazon is having their Small Business Spotlight day on October 15th.

While it doesn't change the fact that Amazon is a massive monopoly, give credit where it's due: they're doing what they can to somewhat fix the problem.

[Aizar]

Just to throw another view point in here: I keep a seller's account for my old book collection. It's a bit scary what small things they'll take your account away for--sometimes someone else fills up your page with bad reviews to knock your rating down so their thing is bought instead--or on the other side, they'll send all very positive reviews so Amazon thinks you paid someone fake to bolster your rating and so freeze you for that. I had one buyer try to tell me that the print in an expensive book he bought was partly upside down and that he wanted a refund. I sent him a return form and told him he'd get money back once I had the book back in my hands--suddenly no reply! He probably hoped I would refund him and then he'd resell the perfectly good book on.

Also another customer demanding why her book wasn't there in two days despite that I only gave shipping options for standard (2-3 weeks) at the time. Had to explain to her I was just a third party seller with maybe 40 books in my inventory max, that I couldn't send her another one because I didn't "have" one, that I couldn't exactly go drag the book out of a pile of undelivered mail in a post office somewhere and send it to her faster, but here was a tracking number, sorry, thanks, good luck etc. That wasn't pleasant, either. (I wasn't that rude, though I sure wanted to be!)

The Amazon fees also make it so selling a book for anything less than $4 plus shipping isn't really worth it, yet for many books, the supply versus the demand has pushed them to go for only a quarter. It's a mystery to me why these sell, as the merchant is in effect losing $3 or more per item sold that way (from both fees and shipping costs), though I've been told it's a way to bolster rating as well as keep up bulk sale amounts for the Amazon paid account (which needs 30 items sold a month to make it worthwhile, iirc).

So, that's a lot of bad, but overall I'm lukewarm. I'm glad for an easy way to offload books I would otherwise donate or trash. Their seller account interface is very nice, and you can scan barcodes with your phone and then post the item with just a click or too. But it's tough being a third-party seller. Amazon almost always sides with the customer if anything untoward comes to their attention, which isn't helpful at all for small businesses, because good luck fighting an unfair judgement--especially when there's fraud and abuse of the rating system out there. It's hard for Amazon to police these things, I suppose, but I hope they'll get better about it.

Anyway, as a customer, Amazon tends to be my choice just because it has a wide selection, and despite the worker's rights issues, they are trustworthy to send you what you paid for. But mainly, it's convenient. I'm a hypocrite.