An Open Forum Discussion

[Shinko]

So way back at the time of Tiger’s hiatus, it was suggested that the forum could possibly benefit from some sort of open, honest conversation about the points that she raised. However, it was agreed that it was probably not a good idea to bring it up when it was both still fresh, and Tiger was not around to contribute to the conversation. We wanted to all have level heads when the problem was addressed, so that we could look at it without the risk of getting defensive.

Perhaps unsurprisingly, it’s gone largely forgotten until now. Nothing major has happened recently, which probably leads some of you to question why I’m even dragging out a seemingly dead horse to beat. However, some of the issues that were raised at the time are definitely still present, still causing resentments, and for me personally, led to a brief minor kerfuffle with somebody the other day on discord because of the buildup of frustration. That issue was resolved, but we agreed that maybe, with things still simmering as they are, that it was time to take the lid off the kettle and let out the steam before something explodes.

For those who may not remember the grievances that were brought up, or who didn’t see the original post at all, I’ll summarize the pain points again.

1) A general reluctance to engage people making idle conversation on the boards- seeing them as too “formal” for quick back-and-forth, and not wanting to take the time to compose a response- and a penchant for flat ignoring people/conversations to start a different topic entirely. This can get especially harmful if other people latch to the new topic without anybody having addressed the original one, because it feels exclusionary. In and of itself not answering a topic you aren’t invested in wouldn’t be a big deal. That sort of thing does happen, and I’m not advocating for forcing people to participate in conversations they aren’t interested in. The problem is when it starts to feel clique-ish, with a group excluding a select few on a consistent basis. On the internet, where intentions are impossible to know without having them spelled out, consistently ignoring somebody can and often is interpreted as not wanting to engage them but not wanting to make a fuss about it at best, passive-aggressive expression of dislike at worst.

1) Related to the first, unwillingness to discuss writing or characters outside of one’s personal favorite or favorites. This has been an issue for years now, though it was recently highlighted during conversations attempting to reform the Neopian Times review threads. Rest assured the problem does not only exist there, but is symptomatic of a larger apathy for our fellow writers present on the forum as a whole. Considering this is the Neopian Times Writers Forum, you will understand if it’s a trend that upsets some people. Nobody wants to be That Guy bringing up their own character in such a way as to seem to be fishing for validation, buuuuut by the same token, as writers we can’t help but feel a little hurt when we put a lot of time and effort and emotional investment into a thing only to have it greeted with radio silence.

2) The biggest issue, and the one that I think needs the most discussion and highlight because it has what led the previous problems to fester so badly- an incredibly toxic environment whereby people are unwilling to take criticism, afraid to even bring up disagreements much less discuss them, and unwilling to apologize and compromise.

All this taken together has led to an undercurrent within the forum of people feeling unwelcome, unwanted, and unsure how to cope with that. Minor disagreements turn into blowout arguments because nobody wants to compromise or apologize, or one side ends up caving and doing all the apologizing and compromising to their own detriment. Nothing really gets solved this way, and resentments and unhappiness are left to fester.

Of course this may not be the case for everybody, and some of the forumers may not be aware of a problem at all. But it’s definitely not just me, or Tiger, because in private venues there has been enough agreement expressed to convince me that the problem very much exists, and needs to be brought into the open. We’re all friends here, and this is where we come together to share our art, our writing, our joys and sorrows, setbacks and triumphs. Any group of people is going to have disagreements, and we need to be able to handle those disagreements and apologize to one another.

[PFA]

Let me preface this by saying that I consider the NTWF to be the nicest internet community I have ever been in. On no other website have I ever felt so comfortable or at home.

The first two points are things I have noticed, though. That said, I also consider those things to be facts of life.

In every single community I have ever been in, no matter how close-knit, there have been times where I've felt like nobody cared about what I was saying. There have been many times where I would post something, even something that I put a lot of time and care into, only to get no response. Heck, I even know what it's like to feel left out due to different preferences on modes of communication—there's a Discord server I'm in where the participants spend 90% of their time in voice chat, something I don't feel comfortable joining on a regular basis. And because of that, I constantly feel like I'm out of the loop.

Does it hurt? Sure. Is it a problem? Maybe. That's why I myself try to acknowledge everybody to the best of my ability. But even then, there's always going to be a comment I didn't see, or something I didn't know how to respond to, or even things that didn't really catch my interest. It's not that I don't care about that person, far from it, just that I can only split my attention so far. I know that I'm not able to always acknowledge everybody, so I don't really expect everybody to always acknowledge me.

As for the third point... I dunno. I've seen disagreements, sometimes heated ones, but they're usually isolated incidents. And definitely not to the point of creating what you call an "incredibly toxic environment." Maybe I'm just out of the loop though, and if that is an issue, it certainly should be addressed. But I dunno. *shrug*

But that's just my take on it. Take from that what you will.

[Celestial]

(A note: I will be using the general "you" a lot. By this, I mean "you, the general NTWF reader of this thread", not anybody specific.)

I absolutely agree: this is a conversation that needs to be had. I do agree that the NTWF is one of the nicest and closest knit communities here, but we are not without disagreements and should handle them like mature adults.

I must apologise for my answer not being as eloquent or placating as I would like, since I am running on very little sleep at the moment, but I cannot rest until I have said what I wanted to say on this issue, because there is a lot to unpack here. Anybody, please feel free to address any points that you find problematic and allow me to either expand upon them, clarify them, or if I am shown the error of my ways, amend and/or redact them. But please do speak up, because I think the root of the problem is this: unwillingness to communicate. This unwillingness to communicate can be applied to some extent to all three points.

On the internet, where we have little context to people's emotional backgrounds or the intention behind the words on the screen, communication matters. We cannot be expected to read minds. I have had it happen to me where I have been exploded upon because of something that has been stewing for months and months that I had absolutely no idea about, either because my words had been misinterpreted or I had said something that had hurt the person unintentionally and they had never brought it up with me. As somebody who already has a communication disorder and cannot always know when I have said something unpleasant or hurtful, this is highly paranoia-inducing and I am always on eggshells if I feel like a person is annoyed at me but I cannot figure out why. Having somebody spell out to me exactly what their problem is often ends up being more productive because we can talk it out and come to a compromise. Bearing in mind a compromise needs to be one that is satisfactory for both parties, and what might be fine for one person might not be fine for another. A poor compromise can have even more problems build up over time.

What is a good compromise? That can be debated, and it highly varies depending on the individual, but it is one that has to be built on communication. The parties need to say what they want, what they expect, what happened to make them feel this way and also they need to consider the context of the other's actions. I don't know about all of you, but I think it is wrong to punish something said out of ignorance or something that was unintentionally hurtful the same as a deliberately malicious remark.

So, bearing that in mind, here are my specific thoughts on how to solve the problems that have been brought up:

1) If one is constently ignored, sitting out a conversation will help nothing. It will only continue the cycle, because the less you participate, the less you will be noticed. If a topic you feel was important was ignored, bring it up again, and maybe ask why it was ignored. Maybe people were just busy? Or maybe it is genuinely not interesting to them? (That's okay, by the way. Different people have different interests. Don't take it personally (this is something I will address in a moment too)). Consider also that a lot of people might not have a lot to say just by their very nature, being more quiet types. However, as with the compromise above, it is also vital that as much talking as is done, everyone also listens. When somebody else wants to take centre stage with a topic, let them. Take part in the topic if it is interesting. Everyone should have equal spotlight, and likewise, everyone should feel listened to.

2) No, nobody wants to be That Guy, but what is wrong with asking for some honest comments? A lot of people just leave their stories and hope that their brilliance shines through, and while I cannot think of anybody on the NTWF who is not a brilliant writer, is not how it works anywhere. Even the most talented writers need excellent marketing behind them. Now, I'm not saying NTWFers need a marketing department, but what's wrong with posting on the NT Discussions or in chats saying "yo, I wrote a thing, can I have some feedback?" Now, with that said, as with the above, some people might not have a lot to say. They might go "that was nice, I enjoyed it" and there is nothing wrong with that. We might be writers, but not all of us have the time or emotional energy to give detailed feedback. If one are unsatisfied with that, I see no shame in asking simple questions like "well, what was your favourite part?" or something like that. Now, with all that said, how do you avoid being That Guy if you constantly ask for feedback on your own stories? Simple: give as good as you get. If you expect comments on your work, give out comments on other's work. That way, we can foster a nice, healthy culture of feedback where nobody feels excluded and nobody feels like their work will be ignored while other's get praise.

A general point for the two above: hints are not great. If you are like me, they will fly over your head. Now, I am uber, uber guilty of just dropping hints, either about things I want to talk to or asking about my writing. I am trying to get out of this habit. But if you are anything like me, it is worth doing that too.

Now, the big one...
3) We need to not be afraid to communicate things that would prevent disagreements and blowouts. This means having people be open to taking criticism and examining their actions, and likewise, people giving criticism having empathy for the other person and giving said crticism in a way that they are more likely to accept it. I'll give a personal (IRL) exampleL I've been having a lot of issues with my grandma delivering criticism in a way that feels condescending and completely inconsiderate of me. This makes me want to shut out anything she is saying, no matter how valid it is, because it feels like she is condescending to me, that she is pressuring me into doing something, and that her criticism is just to make herself feel better about herself. In contrast, when my mum criticises me, it is always in a way that treats me like an adult, is considerate of my feelings and delivered in a way that makes it clear that this is something she is willing to compromise on with me. Guess what I am more likely to listen to?

However, there is a big thing that needs to be addressed: fear. In a community as closely-knit and friendly and loving as us, any dissent, negativity or criticism, or heck, even something innocent, can often be interpreted as a personal attack. As though the thing being criticised is not your writing or a person pointing out that they were untentionally hurt by something that was said is accusing the speaker of bullying or attacking them. This is absolutely not helpful and if left unchecked, can fester and boil until this resentment and feeling of being excluded builds up. Often, others wonder what they did wrong, having no idea that a remark was taken personally. This is doubly so if the original insult is left unaddressed and the person quietly accepts that the remark was a personal insult, for whatever reason.

It is important to remember that 99.99999% of the time, things are not personal. People might have been snappish because they were tired or were dealing with a long day, and then forgot about that incident. Somebody might have been joking about something that flew right above somebody else's head, and they extrapolated - either due to insecurity or something else- that this was a personal insult. Silence on a piece of writing that was just left there without a request for concrit or critique is taken as the writing being bad, when in reality, people might have just been busy or not seen it. As PFA rightly said, there is only so much that our attention spans can take. It is important to communicate and consider other points of view besides one's own. If in doubt, ask. Likewise, be prepared to receive critique, and instead of bristling at it because you feel like the person is insulting you or you feel it is wrong, take a look at yourself and see if maybe they have a point. That does not mean you have to accept it: if you felt hurt by something that was said, whether it was to critique or otherwise, bring it up with the person. Chances are, they would not have intended to hurt you.

A good TL;DR of this post is as follows: be nice to each other, communicate, and if you want people to do something, or something someone said stings, talk about it. We're not mind readers, but we are all mature adults; we can handle things, and we should be able to bring up our sorrows and joys and our writings without being afraid to walk on eggshells around everyone else because we think there is some hidden grudge or agenda there.

No matter what society says, talking and asking about your wants and needs is a good thing. It does not make you an attention seeker or a jerk or That Guy. It makes you and everyone else around you who does not have to second guess what you want a much happier human. Let's all try to remember this.

EDIT: A couple of things I forgot to include in the prior textwall:
- Acknowledging apologies goes a long way. It is important to not forget that very critical step.
- When a disagreement is resolved, leave it at that. Do not bring it up next time a disagreement happens, or carry a grudge from that despite the fact that both parties have agreed the prior thing is resolved. Marriages dissolve over the concept of "keeping score", let alone friendships. To quote a highly overplayed song, Let It Go. *brick'd*

[Moni]

I think there are a lot of macro/structural things that explain the micro frustrations. Most of these macro things don't seem liable to change, and because of that, I don't really expect the forum to move past them. I also think that around 80% of the problem can be attributed to them.

First off, I don't particularly have a lot of love or hate for the NTWF. It's one of the communities I check into online, often in a tab next to the few other ones I frequent. The NTWF is one of the friendlier groups, but (this is especially true nowadays), it also doesn't feel like much of a community--more like a loosely-connected network of a few groups of friends who know each other very well within each friend group, but otherwise don't interact with each other meaningfully (that is to say, on a deep level.)

For point (1), the general reluctance to making idle conversations on the forum itself is attributed to IM. I'm sure there are other factors, but the presence of a skype/discord group basically means that the "hey how are you" stuff, which used to make up the bulk of the bloids, aren't on the forum proper anymore. Since those IM groups do exist, it's basically meant that nonserious/everyday stuff (even talk about games) has moved to IM, with general forum posts being about SERIOUS TOPICS. However, because the NTWF community isn't actually unified enough around something to have more in-depth discussions about stuff more frequently, what tends to happen is a lack of participation in the forum in general, which leads to people mostly getting ignored, etc.

Point (2) is caused by the NTWF's split base, which means artists generally have a worse time than writers sharing their stuff. Basically, even though writing something and drawing something take up the same amount of time, *consuming* a drawing/comic or a short story or something takes more effort/time, at least on a very casual level (on higher levels of analysis, it's very easy to get sucked in a composition or some such, which is why I want to stress "for casual sharing"). It's also relatively easier to casually enjoy a drawing of a fandom you're not familiar with/aren't interested in over a story written in that same such universe.

This wasn't really a problem when the forum was centered more on the Neopian Times--because that was your glue right there. Everyone was interested and invested in this one fandom, and everything was centralized enough for people to share them. The review/discussion threads provided a place for people to both comment and put forth their own work--with the expectation of that reciprocity built in (ie "review to get reviewed") and that sense of reciprocity was a large part of what kept people reading each other's stuff.

Now, people don't a) really post their writing, and when they do, it's either about a forum game or about the Neopian Times. And as the people who actually DO share their original stories and universes--well, they're very rare to be honest; off the top of my head, I can only name Nat and PFA, both of whom mostly share their stuff on the discord and not on the forum itself (I'm not knocking either of these people, I'm just trying to make a point that original stuff isn't really visible if it's posted at all). For that non-original work, there's a sense that it's "not important" or "not serious," and honestly, I'd rather read the "serious" works of an author rather than go ahead and spend time reading stuff that the author considers to be fluff and not their "good output."

There's also the problem of the non-original stories (original stuff comprises a thin sliver of the total writing posted here) restricting their readerbase, which affects writers more than it does artists. People who aren't really invested in the world of a forum RPG frankly won't read its expanded universe, and people who aren't really invested in Neopets ain't gonna read the Neopian Times. Honestly, I don't see myself ever reading the expanded universe of any NTWF RPG, past or present, even for my most favorite characters from my favorite writers; I do not care enough about any one NTWF RPG to do that (honestly, I don't really care about the "expanded universe" of most DnD campaigns, either, so this isn't me trashing forum games, it's about that I view the main value of an RPG as the actual game and interactions that happen within it, not the surrounding world)--other people feel the same way about the Neopian Times, and that's perfectly fine, but it also means your (general "you") audience is going to be really scant outside your immediate close friends.

This is only compounded by people's unwillingness to go "hey, here's something I wrote!" and their unwillingness to ask for any sort of comment or critique. It's kind of annoying to me, because I'd personally be a lot more willing to read the works of people who actually do that sort of thing rather than dig around the forum--it's why I started reading PFA's stuff, for instance. She put it out there--at least on the discord chat.

Point (3) has to do with a lot of factors. I think the NTWF is the community where people are likely to take things the wrong way, at least relative to other communities I've visited--I don't think it's because the NTWF is just full of snowflakes or anything, it has to do with structure. Because all you hear is radio silence thanks to point (1), people don't really know each other's personalities too well and don't feel comfortable bringing it up when something bothers them; they really only confide in their close friends. And so people just don't say when something bothers them (even though it might have been a misunderstanding that could have been cleared in a very short amount of time), or sometimes, when they DO talk it out, they don't really come to a full circle understanding, which lets grudges fester.

I mean, I do second all that stuff about being the bigger person and such, remembering that you're a person with flaws, not taking things to personally either way, and being conscious of the fact that just because you've felt things, doesn't mean you're also not perpetuating them... those are very good points, but I also think it helps to look at something from a very top-bottom sort of place.

[Shinko]

PFA , Yeah, like I said I didn’t figure everyone would have noticed anything was wrong. It’s mostly played out over private conversations, with only the occasional spillover into visible places that was usually shuffled back off to private quickly. Which is good because it means unnecessary problems aren’t generated, but also that stuff goes on that nobody sees or thinks to connect isolated incidents with a wider trend.

It’s worth noting, and this applies to Celes too, that I did agree in my original post that on some level, posts or topics getting ignored or passed over is an inevitability. Not fun, but you get over it. The problem I was positing is when a singular individual or individuals get excluded to the point where it starts to seem or feel deliberate. Which may be because of what Moni brought up about not knowing people well and isolated friend groups, but if that’s the case maybe we can just agree not to be so clique-ish and to be open to new people and ideas?

Celestial I agree with most of your points in principle, definitely. In particular this-

Dec 16, 2017 18:30:29 GMT -5 Celestial said:

and also they need to consider the context of the other's actions. I don't know about all of you, but I think it is wrong to punish something said out of ignorance or something that was unintentionally hurtful the same as a deliberately malicious remark.

Is something we need to watch for, because it crops up sadly a lot. It’s easy to view explaining context behind an unintentionally hurtful remark or momentary lapse in temper as trying to excuse away the bad action and this invalidating the apology. While I’d posit that there are cases, especially when you’ve hurt someone very badly, that you should dispense with justifications for your actions and just apologize with no reservations, for the most part context is important and shouldn’t be disregarded.

There are a couple points I do wanna point out though, because while they’re good in theory they don’t work in practice. Which I know, because I’ve tried. 8’D Like I said, this problem has been ongoing for years.

Dec 16, 2017 18:30:29 GMT -5 Celestial said:

No, nobody wants to be That Guy, but what is wrong with asking for some honest comments? A lot of people just leave their stories and hope that their brilliance shines through, and while I cannot think of anybody on the NTWF who is not a brilliant writer, is not how it works anywhere. Even the most talented writers need excellent marketing behind them. Now, I'm not saying NTWFers need a marketing department, but what's wrong with posting on the NT Discussions or in chats saying "yo, I wrote a thing, can I have some feedback?"

And

Dec 16, 2017 18:30:29 GMT -5 Celestial said:

Now, with all that said, how do you avoid being That Guy if you constantly ask for feedback on your own stories? Simple: give as good as you get. If you expect comments on your work, give out comments on other's work. That way, we can foster a nice, healthy culture of feedback where nobody feels excluded and nobody feels like their work will be ignored while other's get praise.

The second in particular is great in theory and as an idea I 100% agree with it. It’s selfish to expect feedback you yourself aren’t giving. But I’ve tried this approach. Believe me, I have, more than once. There was a time, a few years back, when I made it a point to post reviews and/or feedback on every single Neopian Times issue, for every single submission by a forumer. Every week. And yes, I explicitly asked for people to give feedback on my own submissions when they popped up. XD But most of the time, I only ever had one person giving me any- same one person every time. It’s why I ended up falling off on activity on those threads, I got so exhausted and burnt out giving so much feedback all the time and feeling like my efforts weren’t appreciated. I’ve done similar during forum events, with similar null results.

Again, I think giving as good as you expect to get is great in theory. But in order for it to work in practice, there has to be reciprocation. Not that I in any way expect that people should be obligated to give someone feedback if that someone gives them feedback, just if one person is giving 20+ people feedback and only one of those people pays it forward, that'd wear anybody down. I’m behind giving feedback to others, and perfectly happy doing it, but if I feel like my feedback is sounding off into a void it loops back into point one about trying to talk to people and them not answering you. Something to keep in mind, is my point.

One more thing I’d like to raise that hasn’t been really addressed, though, is that while sometimes people get upset over misconceptions or misunderstandings, sometimes there is legitimately something you’ve said or been doing that is harmful. In these cases, if the remorse for hurting the other person is sincere, you have to be willing not only to apologize, but to change the problem behavior- or at least compromise on it in some way. Apologies are only so effective if people keep getting into squabbles over the same disagreements time and time again. As Celestial said, be willing to accept constructive criticism, but more than that, be willing to act on it.

Moni Perhaps, but I prefer not to take nearly so cynical an approach. I would much rather hope we can, if nothing else, agree to be open and listen to one another when we’ve upset someone.

[Liou]

(will also be using general-you, as it's less awkward than "one")
I do not have enough brain to process a textwall from beginning to end, let alone write one, but I'll put some notes together and see what happens.

1) I am quite guilty of not using the boards for idle conversation (tl;dr: because of insecurity, everyone else's posts are brilliant and mine can't ever measure up in quality or quantity etc.)
I had not noticed any exclusionary or clique-ish effects, and cannot think of any specific instances of that happening;
however, if some people experienced it, then it is a reality, and I will be paying attention wherever I am in the hope of preventing it. (I'm still not sure exactly how these situations happen, though, since we're not calling back specific events, so what I imagine might be completely off the mark.)
On IM in particular, there is a golden middle between answering every point in the chat's backlog, and interrupting the current conversation with your own topic without ever paying attention to what others discussed in the few lines before your arrival.

2) I had not noticed anything of the sort - about sticking to discussing one's favourite(s). Either I'm not getting it at all, or I wasn't in the right place to see it happen.
I haven't properly read the NT in years. Feedback is hard. Good feedback is even harder. There are so many things to feed back. I don't have time for my own writing. Lots of us don't have time to read, offline is more and more of a thing - but well, that's not new at all, is it?
Point is, it still sucks for those who do have the time to write/draw and post their work here and don't get enough feedback to feel appreciated.
At what point can we draw the line between "people are being devoured by offline life" and "people aren't putting enough effort into this"?

Being That Guy and asking for feedback on your thing can: help to draw people's limited attention onto your work, and reassure them that you'd like feedback and they wouldn't be bothering you with it (which is still a very common fear all the time yes).
However, being That Guy and asking for feedback can also feel pretty awful as you're asking for people's time and attention when they seem like they don't have any to spare.
I... don't know how to fix this.

You can also count me in the "cannot catch hints or guess things" team.

3) When someone brings up something that upset them, what they need is not multiple paragraphs justifying how you did not mean to upset them, and why everything is fine. Sure, saying that you didn't mean to upset anyone is part of the process. It's something reassuring, even though we all know we don't do these things on purpose.
But what I find more important is simply acknowledging that what happened was upsetting for the other person(s). Yes, that was bad. Yes, that must have felt awful for you. Yes, I am sorry.
From personal experience, I know that restating what you've just been told can be surprisingly helpful.
It's awkward and I've probably failed to do it many times while crawling into a hole of shame instead. I guess it's something to constantly work on improving.

Sounding defensive when you're only justifying your intentions is a problem, because it can make the other person feel guilty for even bringing up what upset them, and that won't help them bring up anything in the future, either.

There is a principle of Non Violent Communication that I like. Actually implementing it in conversation is much more difficult than understanding it. Still, I'll share it just in case. It can help to talk about things openly without getting defensive.
Here's a summary of the steps:
1) [Name], when you do [action] / when [this happens],
2) I feel [basic feeling],
3) because I need [basic need that was unfulfilled],
4) and I ask you to [thing that would help].

Sorry, none of what I typed was really worth posting, but, I didn't want to be totally silent on this issue.
I mainly want to let you know that I am keeping up with this thread and will take note of anything that I can do/change to help.
Some of us may not have directly experienced the problem, but if this thread is a thing at all, that means there is a problem.
Those of us who do not experience anything toxic and who are fine in this environment are lucky enough, but that doesn't mean we can just wander off and leave those who do experience bad things to sort it out by themselves. That's not how being a group works. I am a part of the group, so I am a part of the problem.

[Tiger]

Yeah, I also agree with a lot of the things you all are saying. We definitely aren't saying misses and radio silence will never happen, please don't get us wrong there! XD We know that's an unrealistic and unpleasant expectation, to reply to everything, and we wouldn't want it expected of anyone. In particular to Celestial's point, I do think giving feedback without specifically being asked is something I should improve on and do more often. Fair is fair.

I also have to agree with Shinko, however, that trying to be That Guy proactive and ask for opinions...does not always help. Don’t get me wrong - people usually do jump in and reply to being asked at the time, but - well, here: I’m going to use an example, being very vague to avoid incriminating anyone. I've dealt for a long time with my character Leif (who, yes, I know, is probably my best-known character and does get brought up a decent amount by the Medieval group, but bear with me here) being left out of situations he should definitely have been mentioned in because canonically those were important things involving him, and/or his important traits/skills/roles being ignored or deprecated so another character could be praised as being the best/first/most at it. At first I did try just bringing him up in the conversation with a vague sort of “heyyy” as a sort of reminder - but that never really stuck past the current talk; the next time he would be forgotten or shoved aside again. In two of those situations in particular that were happening a lot, I just...stopped bringing him up at all, because I figured, well, if people aren't going to remember him on their own, I didn't want him to be remembered only because I'd nagged people into it.

((In fairness, one of these situations did get resolved - the deprecating to boost another character thing wound up happening a couple times and I eventually snapped over it enough that it stopped. And when that situation came up in writing, I was actually offered a chance to collaborate and contribute something, which I really did appreciate. Just - kinda frustrating I had to get angry and snap before it was taken seriously, y’know?))

So, when things like that are happening a lot, the problem with just asking for feedback is - the words are nice, but the actions blatantly don’t match. And when actions don’t match, the comments start to feel really hollow.

Like - we're aware people don’t actively want to hurt each others’ feelings, so of course when we’re actively upset and asking for feedback, people are going to be nice and say nice things. But if all those nice things people say then are true, that should also come across in actions, and...sometimes it doesn’t. If Leif is such a memorable character with all these great relationships and situations around him and I’m such a good writer that I’ve conveyed that properly, why are there multiple situations where those relationships and situations are totally forgotten or even cast aside? (And for the record, it was more than two scenarios, and it’s not just been with Leif, either; those two situations mentioned were just especially repetitive and significant).

Granted, yes, the point about there not always being enough time/space is a valid one, and neither Shinko nor I are expecting anything crazy here, I don’t think - we’re both aware that sometimes characters/people get left out and sometimes people need to be prompted and people are busy. But again, it seems to happen all the time and that builds up, and it makes every new time it happens another rock added onto the pile. If we could get to something more balanced, just better rather than perfect, I think it would make those incidents where it does happen feel less like slights and more like circumstantial misses.

[Moni]

Shinko Was there anything in my post that said I didn't think people as individuals were capable of positive change, or be taken that way? I am very confused by your response and would like to know where I miscommunication it so it doesn't repeat again. :/

[Shinko]

Moni Sorry if I misinterpreted what you meant to say. I think it's just that you listed a whole bunch of reasons why you think things are the way they are without suggesting any means of improving the situation, so it gave me the impression of an implication that these were truths that nothing could be done about. Your points were good ones, I just don't think I got the takeaway from them that you were aiming for, which is my bad.

Though I would like to clarify, in response to point 2, that I'm not in any way asking for people who aren't invested in a fandom in the first place to comment on it. What gets depressing is when people who are in that fandom aren't saying anything- I just want to clarify this point because it's getting brought up a lot and I don't want to give off the idea that I think everyone should be obligated to read and respond to everything submitted by everyone else.

[Thorn]

I don't have a lot to say right now, but the clique thing could maybe be helped by having more forum events in the vein of PM a Friend/Spirit Weeks! Besides the roleplays (which not everyone has the time or inclination to take part in), that's how I met most of my friends here.

[Moni]

Shinko Ah, I see. Well, I think in order to come up with good solutions, it's probably good to just put the problems on the table first--I need some time to think about problems in order to come up with my solutions. Some of the issues I raised don't really have solutions--at least easy ones--but others do. In fact, in response to my first point, I think Thorn came up with a rather neat idea!

And I don't think that's what you were saying, necessarily, I just think the the split bases/fandoms on the NTWF definitely contributes. It's less that I think you're saying every person should comment; it's more like a mathematical inevitability to me. Shrinking a base means you're shrinking the pool of possible commenters, which will result in less comments, and that's a contributing factor. So like, my point is more that 5% of 20 people is less than 5% of 40 people.

Though part of point (2) is also culture and just the nature of the active userbase itself (which affects the percentage of people that DO give feedback, which is what you're getting at here). I've been a lurker on a lot of different writing websites, and to an extent they all sort of have incentive/streamlined systems to incentivize commenting that the NTWF doesn't have. The other is that the userbase just got older and has less time in general--which is a hard thing to come up with a solution for, though I'm sure that someone can probably make an event that makes the barrier to feedback less... daunting? I guess.

[Thorn]

Following up on my previous post: I'd be happy to organise/help organise another Spirit Weeks at some stage. I always love those, and I know GLQ usually runs them, but if she doesn't wants to or wants some help then I'd be glad to!

[Shinko]

I do appreciate Thorn’s suggestion- the huge events are hard for most people to commit to, but smaller events or games that you can slide in and out of casually and still feel like you’re included/participating might help a little to get more people acquainted with others on the forum.

To answer one of Liou’s points- something I mentioned in my reply to Celes- asking explicitly for feedback is a thing that we’ve tired. If we ask immediately upon posting something, we’ll usually get a response (even if it’s just “busy, I’ll check later” which is totally fine). But if there’s something posted we really put a lot of work into but didn’t call specific attention to, such as a particularly pivotal post in a roleplay or a Neopian Times submission or whatever the case may be, if we retroactively ask “hey, what did people think of this” it’s usually met with defensiveness. People seem to take it really personally when we express that it’d be cool to get thoughts/opinions/critique on something that was initially not noticed, which is not the sort of response that makes us feel like requesting feedback is welcome by the forum at large. And we totally get that sometimes real life is too much of a distraction. That’s entirely fair. We’re not asking for perfection, just- as Tiger clarified earlier- a little effort to be more inclusive and supportive of our fellow writers. Moni, you mentioned other communities you’re part of have ways of incentivizing feedback and/or making it seem less daunting, what did you mean by that?

Dec 17, 2017 10:38:23 GMT -5 Liou said:

When someone brings up something that upset them, what they need is not multiple paragraphs justifying how you did not mean to upset them, and why everything is fine. Sure, saying that you didn't mean to upset anyone is part of the process. It's something reassuring, even though we all know we don't do these things on purpose.
But what I find more important is simply acknowledging that what happened was upsetting for the other person(s). Yes, that was bad. Yes, that must have felt awful for you. Yes, I am sorry.
From personal experience, I know that restating what you've just been told can be surprisingly helpful.
It's awkward and I've probably failed to do it many times while crawling into a hole of shame instead. I guess it's something to constantly work on improving.

Sounding defensive when you're only justifying your intentions is a problem, because it can make the other person feel guilty for even bringing up what upset them, and that won't help them bring up anything in the future, either.

I really like this point- it’s a good point. I find that a lot of the problems we have with conflict resolution stem from failing to comprehend exactly this. Celes is also correct- you really do need to consider context in the issue of minor slights or people getting snappish in the heat of a moment because of a bad day- but when someone comes to you expressing a hurt, it really is 1000x better to just apologize without all the qualifications and disclaimers.

I think an important thing to remember is that a person telling you they are upset is not a personal insult you need to defend yourself from. It can hurt to be criticized or called out for something you didn’t mean to be hurtful, but in that moment the situation is not about you. It’s about whoever you’ve upset. Once sincere apologies have been levied and the other person has been reassured, that is the time to try and discuss and compromise, not before. I think if we try ad adhere to this idea, we can have a lot more success in working out our differences.

[PFA]

Dec 18, 2017 13:12:58 GMT -5 Shinko said:

To answer one of Liou’s points- something I mentioned in my reply to Celes- asking explicitly for feedback is a thing that we’ve tired. If we ask immediately upon posting something, we’ll usually get a response (even if it’s just “busy, I’ll check later” which is totally fine). But if there’s something posted we really put a lot of work into but didn’t call specific attention to, such as a particularly pivotal post in a roleplay or a Neopian Times submission or whatever the case may be, if we retroactively ask “hey, what did people think of this” it’s usually met with defensiveness. People seem to take it really personally when we express that it’d be cool to get thoughts/opinions/critique on something that was initially not noticed, which is not the sort of response that makes us feel like requesting feedback is welcome by the forum at large.

I can't recall any specific instances of this, so uh, take this with a grain of salt, but maybe it's worth considering the tone in which feedback is requested, as well? Because if people are getting defensive, it might be that, intentionally or not, the question was asked with an accusatory tone. Which I would understand, it's hard not to be a little snippy when frustrated, but it's not particularly conducive to polite feedback. XD; (And again, this is speculative, not trying to accuse anyone here)

At any rate, regarding the whole "neglecting people" issue, another option I forgot to mention is (ironically) that sometimes people forget. Sometimes I'll see a post, have every intention of commenting on it, but then get distracted by something and forget about what I was going to say. And with the Medieval example Tiger gave, even though I might know all the details of other people's characters, they're not always at the forefront of my mind in the heat of an exciting new story idea or whatever. I know I've done stuff like that before, and I'm sincerely sorry if anyone has ever been offended by that, just... please politely poke me when that happens? I definitely don't want anybody to feel excluded, and I would be more than happy to accommodate anyone I may have accidentally forgotten about. Going back to Celes' point, if there's a problem, please speak up about it.

[Twillie]

There's a lot of great points being discussed right now, and I promise I am indeed keeping up on them all and will hopefully have more to contribute. For now though, I just want to get this out on one of the points before it slips from me. 

Regarding giving feedback if you want to receive it, I think there is also a case of "too much" that can give the same results as "too little." Speaking from experience, if you're consistently taking care of the entirety of something, it can get to the point where you unintentionally "claim" that role in the eyes of others. It happened to me both with giving reviews and making the review threads, where I'd always be the one to take charge on them, so people relied on me and only me to do it, and I got burned out as well from that. And this is something that happens anywhere, not just the forum, tying into busy irl lives. If there's something you know that should get done, and you see the same person consistently taking care of it, then it much more easily slips your mind as you rely on them to continue doing that. I know I'm guilty of this a lot, where there's something that I might not need to do, but ought or want to do, but I completely forget about it because last I checked, someone else was doing the same thing and I thought "Cool, that gives me more time to take care of it." And then however many days/weeks/months later...

I think there's a happy medium between giving no reviews and giving all the reviews that can hopefully be reached, but as feedback is very much a systematic thing, it'd take some time to get there. I think the recent changes to the review threads are a step in the right direction, as it promotes more open discussion without one person dominating the threads and no fear of "they always give me detailed critique, so I need to do the same, but how ;.;" It's obviously not the perfect solution, and there could be even more changes made perhaps, but I think that might be the way to go: a slow build rather than a catch all solution. I know I've tried to find the latter before, and I don't believe it exists alas. Perhaps events similar to the PM A Friend/Spirit Weeks Thorn mentioned, but related to critiques, could slowly make feedback more inclusive, as it'd give more people experience in both giving and receiving it.

Also, Moni , I as well am curious about these more streamlined, incentivizing feedback communities that you mentioned.