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Post by Duke Pikachu on Apr 7, 2018 14:57:28 GMT -5
I may be misunderstanding here, but the conversation seems to be implying that losing name = losing powers for a faerie. That isn’t and never has been the case. Baelia/ The Grey Faerie lost her powers when her wings were removed. The name thing was supposed to be her meal ticket to get her wings and powers back. Now this next is just headcanon, but I was always under the impression that striking out the Darkest Faerie’s name was meant to punish her by making all of Neopia forget her. Karmic for her attempt to alter the history of Altador so she was remembered as its sole founder and ruler. It definitely, however, has never been about obliterating or even weakening her powers. That’s what the whole trapped in stone thing was for. Sorry if I gave the misinformation about losing the name = power. I know that's not the case. That said, there does seem to be some implication that, while losing ones name doesn't have an effect on a Faerie's power, gaining one does? Or at least being given a new name seems to have some affect on the Faerie. Once again, Baelia needs an new name to regrow her wings and get back her power. It seems to be implied that her name is just a mere relic now, something she can use to identify herself with but holds no importance to her. Since we don't know exactly how this whole "get a new name" thing would work, could very well require some ritual. If the name is nothing more than something to identify yourself with, then maybe what is meant by "getting a new name" is more dedicating yourself to someone, something, or a cause and receiving a new name as a sign of this dedication. It's not the name itself which gives the new power, but the name is a sign you have turned yourself over to something new in order for to be empowered by it. Using a Star Wars example, this ideology could be seen with the Sith. When Anakin turned to the way of the Sith and Dark Side, he was given the name Darth Vader. The name "Anakin" meant nothing to him from then on, just a name he went by in the past but the duties put on and beliefs followed by that name no longer applied to the individual who once had it (at least until Vader decided that the life of his son mattered more to him than following his master, a belief which would more align with Anakin. Thus Darth Vader became Anakin again just before dying, allowing him to become a force ghost). We're once again seeing this idea with the new trilogy with Ben Solo aka Kylo Ren, Ben is desperately trying to move on and become Kylo but is having a problem doing so. Getting a new name isn't that easy, especially when you have people who know you by your old name (once Anakin became Darth Vader they quickly started killing all the Jedi they could, only a few slipping through the cracks and only fewer knowing Vader was Anakin). With that explained and getting back to Neopets, it could just be that when Baelia says "getting a new name" what she means is finding a new purpose. As Baelia, she can no longer serve her purpose, Baelia had been drained of her power. But where to find this new purpose? Could be why the Faeries haven't been able to help her, Baelia was the name the Faeries gave to her. Baelia was in servitude to the Faeries. If Baelia is to get her wings and power back, she needs a just as powerful force outside of the Faeries to give her a new name... and there's not that many of those around, less that are considered "good" which Baelia would probably want to devote herself too. So, with that all said, what could this mean for The Darkest Faerie if Kaia is indeed a made up persona of hers? Now taking away TDF's name was more meant to make people forget her than depower her as that's not how the name thing worked as discussed above; so she's no less powerful. However, GETTING a new name could still give him more power. If TDF was Kaia all along, than we've already seen a bit of this with TDF showing she has the gift of "The Sight", a powerful form of clairvoyance (in theory). Where and from whom did TDF get this new name? What powers does this force has and what does it seek from TDF? Now that TDF has revealed herself, does she still have the name Kaia or has she discarded it now it no longer serves her any use? If TDF decided to keep the name how does this affect her plans and plans of the force which gave her the name? Though just something I noticed, we hadn't had a Mystic Murmurs since Kaia ran into the Wild Woods. Instead of needing to do a Mystic Murmurs to find Malum, Kaia just says she had a vision and tells us where we need to go. So that could support the theory TDF did just switch places with Kaia (thus making everything I said just a thought experiment). |
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Post by Blueysicle on Apr 7, 2018 14:59:52 GMT -5
(also, my first question at "no wings = no magic" is "so considering that water faeries don't have wings, does that mean that they don't have the weakness everyone else has and the smart money should be on Marina"?) The old TNT actually did address that in an Editorial from several years ago: |
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Post by Shinko on Apr 7, 2018 15:30:14 GMT -5
Duke Pikachu That's always been my interpretation of the "name" thing too, for the record. They had a similar plot point in the Eragon novels, whereby everyone in the world has a hidden "true name" that defines exactly who they are as a person, but you can change your true name if who you are fundamentally changes. So as it applies to Baelia, it would be less about the linguistic action of applying a new sequence of syllabic sounds to identify herself, and more about discovering a new identity outside of who "Baelia" was. The faerie who was "Baelia" can't exist anymore without her magic; that person is, effectively speaking, dead. So while the other faeries may want to help her, they wouldn't necessarily be able to because it would be up to the Grey Faerie to decide on her own terms that she is ready to let go of "Baelia," stop grieving over what she has lost, and find a place in the world that isn't defined by the loss of what she once was. (Of course, Metatextually she hasn't changed her name and got her powers back because if she did we wouldn't have a Grey Faerie anymore, but shhhh.)
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Post by Ziporen on Apr 7, 2018 23:37:00 GMT -5
WMG: Baelia will get her wings back if/when user/pet name changes become a real thing.
Bonus off-topic thought: I wonder if a Faerie's type could change if they lost and then regained their magic. Anyway, no real updates since Kaia's bar went down, brief NF mention aside. Maybe there will be a new step on Monday. Also, a question: Was this image ever used? It would have fit during the Fiendish Formations steps, but I don't remember it being used for that.  The pose was used on one of the homepage banners, but that's the only (official) use I that remember seeing. |
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Post by Duke Pikachu on Apr 8, 2018 1:22:48 GMT -5
WMG: Baelia will get her wings back if/when user/pet name changes become a real thing.
Bonus off-topic thought: I wonder if a Faerie's type could change if they lost and then regained their magic. Anyway, no real updates since Kaia's bar went down, brief NF mention aside. Maybe there will be a new step on Monday. Also, a question: Was this image ever used? It would have fit during the Fiendish Formations steps, but I don't remember it being used for that. The pose was used on one of the homepage banners, but that's the only (official) use I that remember seeing. Ooh, that's an interesting idea, her being made into the Faerie you go to change your name. I even know the perfect name change for her: Aleias! (pretty much remove the beginning "b" and add an "s" at the end, making her name sound like "alias". In addition I'd was around the position of the "e" to as Aelias is just a "t" short of meaning something that belongs to Taelia (I just now noticed the Faerie naming convention is a bit limited at times). "But now her name begins with "ale"". Maybe that could be a subtle joke, to change your name she makes you drink something that makes you forget your old name (and also somehow makes everyone else forget too, rewrites all previous mentions of your name to your new name, etc.; it's Faerie magic).  ). As for what she'll become is she changes her name, hm. I don't think she can return to who Baelia previous was. Baelia is a Grey Faerie now, there's no changing that. If whoever Baelia had aligned herself to could not restore her, than she can no longer use their power even if they are the ones to give her a new name (because otherwise why change the name if you can have the same power again if the idea is she has to change herself to regain her wings and power). And I guess it doesn't mean she can't become a normal Faerie again. Like if Baelia was a Light Faerie, maybe she can become a Faerie of one of other other elements (probably not Dark though, I imagine she may have an issue with that). However that would be pretty boring so I imagine she'll become a special Faerie of some kind. Huh, don't remember that image. A possible hint that Kaia was just replaced by TDF and she'll be coming in for a new part? Considering her power and that map is suppose to be showing where everyone is, maybe we'll get a new version of Mystic Murmurs that involves a map? Though I guess it could just be unused art, intended to be used during the Fiendish Formations part to make players know they can use the map now though guess they decided wasn't necessary. |
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Post by Huntress on Apr 8, 2018 7:23:00 GMT -5
Can I just say how big a fan I am of all sorts of fascinating worldbuildingy discussions like these? =3 but yes, I should also carry on in spoilerboxes onnacounta thread-relevance.
Metatextually, odds are good that Baelia will never stop being a Grey Faerie (in which case her open-ended fate is a pretty cruel setup; if she'd been established as permanently power-stripped faerie then her life wouldn't be in this current limbo. But cruel setups happen and aren't necessarily a bad thing.) In addition to the abovequoted theories, the other faeries might see her as a sort of pilgrim - which might explain why she still goes around in that shoddy dress.
My problem with Baelia is that she really has no purpose so far; I mean on-site, not in-universe. Most other faeries have a place to call their own, be it a shop or a library or a glade or whatever, so we more or less know where they fit into the picture. Baelia has no such abode, so we can't really associate her with anything other'n floating around in the outskirts of other faerie gatherings, looking sad. Heck, the little tidbit of her at the Hidden Tower is arguably the most we've gotten added to her character since the Neopedia article, grey faerie quests aside.
Basically, girl needs a proper cutie mark crusade xD Off-spoilerbox because it relates to the ongoing plot: has anyone mentioned how much sense Baelia in the Hidden Tower actually makes? Like, this is a war. Baelia can't help out with the war because she has no powers (unfortunate implications right there, you're worthless without your powers, #xandrawasright et cetera) - which makes her the perfect backup to run the Tower while Fyora is on sick leave. Wars need a whole lot of background people like these, dealing with paperwork and supplies and various matters off the frontline. So hey, it's awesome that she gets this bit of character- and worldbuilding. Moreso because the text establishes that she volunteered to do this and it makes her happy. ALSO.  Duke Pikachu , Liou , I blame you for this xD (it's going to be a seven-panel comic with complicated backgrounds because I don't know how not to be ambitious, but as work in progress goes, it's coming along nicely.) As for the unused Kaia art, it does make me wonder how much they might have rewritten things along the way. I reckon TDF was always in the cards - considering the tie-in items and avatars - but it's vaguely possible that the TFD=Kaia twist was added later and Kaia was originally meant to be a straightforward protagonist with an even bigger role. Or she might still come back, but by all accounts we should be well into the Boss Battle right now - adding even more stuff with Fiendish Formations would screw up the pacing. |
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Post by Jae on Apr 8, 2018 7:53:48 GMT -5
I agree that TDF was probably planned all along. With all due respect to the art team, the Kaia/TDF avatar is too good to have been whipped up on the spot.
I hope that image was meant to be used for FF and just got scrapped or something. I don't really want more FF or new Mystic Murmurs tbh
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Post by Breakingchains on Apr 8, 2018 11:40:58 GMT -5
but yes, I should also carry on in spoilerboxes onnacounta thread-relevance.
Metatextually, odds are good that Baelia will never stop being a Grey Faerie (in which case her open-ended fate is a pretty cruel setup; if she'd been established as permanently power-stripped faerie then her life wouldn't be in this current limbo. But cruel setups happen and aren't necessarily a bad thing.) In addition to the abovequoted theories, the other faeries might see her as a sort of pilgrim - which might explain why she still goes around in that shoddy dress.
My problem with Baelia is that she really has no purpose so far; I mean on-site, not in-universe. Most other faeries have a place to call their own, be it a shop or a library or a glade or whatever, so we more or less know where they fit into the picture. Baelia has no such abode, so we can't really associate her with anything other'n floating around in the outskirts of other faerie gatherings, looking sad. Heck, the little tidbit of her at the Hidden Tower is arguably the most we've gotten added to her character since the Neopedia article, grey faerie quests aside.
Basically, girl needs a proper cutie mark crusade xD Y'know, I could totally go for an event where the whole premise is just Baelia trying to restore her magic. Team up with the Seekers to do some "Magical Research" themed puzzles, gather spell ingredients, uncover some new lore and then Baelia tries to restore herself to a regular light faerie or whatever but instead ends up with unique new powers and a boss redesign. |
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Post by Herdy on Apr 8, 2018 12:19:51 GMT -5
About the 'unused' Kaia art - it was intended to be used for the Fiendish Formations step, but never was actually used (instead, for that section, we initially had a broken image). Seems likely that Kaia was originally meant to be the 'host' of Fiendish Formations, but then they switched it to Aethia during development.
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Post by Shinko on Apr 8, 2018 12:32:36 GMT -5
but yes, I should also carry on in spoilerboxes onnacounta thread-relevance.
Metatextually, odds are good that Baelia will never stop being a Grey Faerie (in which case her open-ended fate is a pretty cruel setup; if she'd been established as permanently power-stripped faerie then her life wouldn't be in this current limbo. But cruel setups happen and aren't necessarily a bad thing.) In addition to the abovequoted theories, the other faeries might see her as a sort of pilgrim - which might explain why she still goes around in that shoddy dress.
My problem with Baelia is that she really has no purpose so far; I mean on-site, not in-universe. Most other faeries have a place to call their own, be it a shop or a library or a glade or whatever, so we more or less know where they fit into the picture. Baelia has no such abode, so we can't really associate her with anything other'n floating around in the outskirts of other faerie gatherings, looking sad. Heck, the little tidbit of her at the Hidden Tower is arguably the most we've gotten added to her character since the Neopedia article, grey faerie quests aside.
Basically, girl needs a proper cutie mark crusade xD Y'know, I could totally go for an event where the whole premise is just Baelia trying to restore her magic. Team up with the Seekers to do some "Magical Research" themed puzzles, gather spell ingredients, uncover some new lore and then Baelia tries to restore herself to a regular light faerie or whatever but instead ends up with unique new powers and a boss redesign. I'd be all onboard for that. There are plenty of faeries onsite that aren't straightforward elementalists that you could draw upon for moral support to prove that there's more to being a faerie than giving quests and casting charms. The Soup Faerie, Delina, Taelia, Jhuidah, Kari, Aethia, the Tooth Faerie, Mira... No reason Baelia couldn't find herself a similar non-standard purpose. |
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Post by Duke Pikachu on Apr 8, 2018 14:24:19 GMT -5
Can I just say how big a fan I am of all sorts of fascinating worldbuildingy discussions like these? =3 Yes, these wild theories and speculation is very fun!  Maybe we should make a "Neopian Theory, Mystery, & Conspiracy" thread where we can discuss these without having to put them in spoiler tags.  Indeed, Baelia is such an iconic character it would be kind of a bad idea to drastically change her. Though, not that change is a bad thing either. While she is iconic, at the same time I don't think anyone would complain if they change her in such a way she retains her overall looks but more embraces her uniqueness. For example, why is she still wearing a tattered dress? Yes, it's a representation of her current state, but if I was to go psychiatrist for a second it feels like she's wearing it not because she has to but rather she maybe has an inferiority complex of some kind. She doesn't feel like she deserves better clothes until she has gotten her wings/powers back. But at the same time you could say her not wanting to even change clothes is also a subtle form of a mental block she has: maybe she's still trying to hold onto who she is. While we discussed how a name is just a word used to identify yourself, at the same time that just makes it all the special to the individual. It's not just a word, it's YOUR word. When someone says it, they're talking about you (or someone who shares the same name but let's not get into that). And for someone who already lost many other things, like a Faerie who lost their wings and power, their name is at least one thing they still have (which is probably why Jennumara used her name as the keyword for the cage's lock, a final cruelty by trying to also take away her name). Thus maybe why Baelia is still a Grey Faerie, to get her wings and power back she needs to give up one of the last thing she has of her own: her name; her identity.
Now from here the story could split depending on what message they want to give out.
If they want to use as Baelia as an allegory for someone in a bad situation but is afraid to get out of it or someone who is afraid to commit themselves to a responsibility, a good ending to her story would be taking that final leap and getting a new name. Overcoming her anxiety and possible self-loathing to realize she can be more than she is and its only herself stopping it. Moving onto the next stage of her life, she being still herself but much wiser and stronger for the experience she had gone through.
OR, if they want to keep her as a Grey Faerie, use her character as an allegory for someone who life didn't give them a great hand but is working with what they have to make the best out of their situation. Because, why should Baelia give up her name? She did nothing wrong, it was an evil Dark Faerie who stole her wings and power. It can be viewed giving up her name is letting Jennumara succeed, she would have successfully "killed" Baelia and gotten away with it even if the Faerie that Baelia became goes after her, it wouldn't exactly be Baelia getting any vengeance. Because, while Baelia has all the reason to be depressed about her situation, there's nothing saying she also can't find happiness either. Nothing says being a Grey Faerie means she's cursed to feel never ending sadness, it just means she has no wings nor magic. She effectively a human if you think about it. Instead of seeking to give up her identity, a good ending for this Baelia would be coming to terms who she is and use her experience where she can. She is Baelia, the magic-less Faerie; A Faerie who has both the world views of a powerful Faerie and your average Neopet. If she can overcome her angst she could probably become a good PR for Faerie-Neopet relations. (NOTE: Before anyone gets angry at me, I know depression is a complicated disorder and cannot be simply "get better from". However, I don't think it's intended Baelia has clinical depression, if anything she has psychological trauma which has put her into an emotional/mental depression; something which a person can overcome with help and support).
But yes, she does need something to move herself in a direction. Her becoming a Quest Faerie and now shopkeeping the Hidden Tower has given her more purpose and shows that she can do things (she's even smiling in much of her art now). We'll see if anything more is done with her, we'll see if Fyora takes back being Hidden Tower shopkeeper or lets Baelia remain (would give Baelia something more to do and free up time in Fyora's schedule. Apparently anytime Faeries go through misfortune is the best thing to happen for Baelia: Faerieland falls from the sky, Baelia becomes a Quest Faerie. Fyora knocked unconscious, Baelia becomes Hidden Tower Shopkeeper). Love it! If it's not too late could I suggest two boxes (most likely toward the end)?
For one of Baelia's antics I just imagine her trying on Fyora's dresses. The cynic in me imagine her saying "I'm Queen Fyora, I'm the most powerful Faerie! Except I can't help restore Grey Faerie's powers and won't punish Dark Faeries who take other's powers. Praise to me!".
Then the final box would be Taelia and Aethia watching from a crystal ball at her antics with confused/concerned faces. Taelia: "Girl holds a grudge". Aethia: "I've seen less spiteful Dark Faeries...".
If it's too late that's alright, just two funny things I imagined happening. XD Y'know, I could totally go for an event where the whole premise is just Baelia trying to restore her magic. Team up with the Seekers to do some "Magical Research" themed puzzles, gather spell ingredients, uncover some new lore and then Baelia tries to restore herself to a regular light faerie or whatever but instead ends up with unique new powers and a boss redesign. I'd be all onboard for that. There are plenty of faeries onsite that aren't straightforward elementalists that you could draw upon for moral support to prove that there's more to being a faerie than giving quests and casting charms. The Soup Faerie, Delina, Taelia, Jhuidah, Kari, Aethia, the Tooth Faerie, Mira... No reason Baelia couldn't find herself a similar non-standard purpose. Ooh, that's an idea. But why The Seekers? Wouldn't the Order make more sense? Though personally if they have an event where she's the main protagonist I'd suggest keeping it mainly Faerie focused. I could suggest a batch of ideas though, since we're currently having a Faerie plot, maybe might be best to lay off any Faerie-related event for a while and focus on some other worlds. But id she does this I'd suggest an outfit change, maybe put her in her Press Kit Faerie Doll clothes:  |
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Post by Huntress on Apr 9, 2018 11:57:50 GMT -5
Maybe we should make a "Neopian Theory, Mystery, & Conspiracy" thread where we can discuss these without having to put them in spoiler tags. No reason why you can't, although I do think that conversation tends to flow more organically (and thus go more fascinating places xD) when it doesn't get strictly restricted to topic. As soon as you try to cordon it off to a separate thread for more attempted relevance, it tends to get stifled and people start picking their words carefully or opt not to post entirely. So I do quite like the way a Neopets event can breed broader discussions like these, spoilerboxed or not. Mostly it'd become a problem if less relevant conversations were to drown out actual plot discussion, but as far as I've seen, the thread gets pretty quickly back on track whenever there's a new plot step and the meandering scenic roads crop up when there isn't much else going on anyway. (and considering how slow this plot has been, this thread might be pretty dead if not for worldbuildingy speculations here and there x'D) This'd be my preferred route for her, because I do quite like this poor wingless woobie that she is. And changing a name is, well, kind of huge no matter how you serve it.
(this is where meta sort of gets in the way again: it'd be pretty hard to make a faerie's name-change palatable for the userbase. There isn't a whole lot that we know about Baelia in the first place onnacounta lack of lore so if they were to change her appearance, powers, purpose and name, there might not be enough of her left over to actually connect us to former!Baelia. If not done well enough, it'd be the same as erasing her from existence and giving us a new Petpet Faerie or whatevs who so happens to have antennae.
On a sidenote of a sidenote, Baelia asks for petpets for her quests and is kindasorta the guardian angel of Grey pets so if I was to associate her with any purpose, that's the first that comes to mind.) Yanno, I did mean to mention somewhere in my lengthy Baelia-tirades that you'd think that power-stripping a faerie would be an enormous capital offence punishable by getting turned into a mortog, then to stone, then putting the stone mortog in a box, the box inside a bigger box, mailing that to yourself and then smashing it with a hammer. There's like, zero law enforcement in Neopia other'n whatever justice you can exact yourself.
See, one of my big self-imposed problems with comicmaking is that I need to involve Shad and Saura in all of them somehow, else the title doesn't make sense xD So that always shapes the way I set up punchlines. But there is one scene where she tries on Fyora's dresses (that's what she's wearing in this panel, because clearly I can't draw a comic with the Grey Faerie without giving her an outfit change.) |
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Post by Duke Pikachu on Apr 9, 2018 13:10:26 GMT -5
No reason why you can't, although I do think that conversation tends to flow more organically (and thus go more fascinating places xD) when it doesn't get strictly restricted to topic. As soon as you try to cordon it off to a separate thread for more attempted relevance, it tends to get stifled and people start picking their words carefully or opt not to post entirely. So I do quite like the way a Neopets event can breed broader discussions like these, spoilerboxed or not. Mostly it'd become a problem if less relevant conversations were to drown out actual plot discussion, but as far as I've seen, the thread gets pretty quickly back on track whenever there's a new plot step and the meandering scenic roads crop up when there isn't much else going on anyway. (and considering how slow this plot has been, this thread might be pretty dead if not for worldbuildingy speculations here and there x'D) True. I was just fishing to see if anyone would be interested before going out to make the board. But since you're the first one to comment and it's a nay, I guess we could let these just be off the cuff conversations (and I guess we have the Neopian Mini-Comments thread to act as a catch-all). But, yeah, JS, let's get a move on with the plot. It's a start of a new week today and would be nice if we could start with a plot update... Thinking about it, we don't need to change her from being called "The Grey Faerie" if she gets a new task. She'd only need a new title if she got a new name thus a new power. As long as she remains a Grey Faerie no reason to complicate thing. Like Illusen and Jhudora don't have a special title, they're just an Earth Faerie and Dark Faerie with notable roles on the site. Oh, you already thought of her trying on Fyora's dress, alright then, lol (guess it is an obvious joke to make).
Your comic, your rules. I just thought Taelia and Aethia commenting was a little funny idea, though if you need to fit Shad and Saura in there than it's not needed.
But I'm pretty sure what Jennumara did is very much against Faerie laws... but I'm going to guess they just can't find her. Like all villains, her base of operations is secret. A part of my joke sort of goes off the idea that, just in general, Baelia may be a tad bit racist against Dark Faeries. Like, I don't think it was until Delina did we get a Dark Faerie who wasn't thought to be doing something evil. |
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Post by Jae on Apr 9, 2018 14:04:18 GMT -5
I saw someone post on board 7 that today is the 184th day of the plot so far. That is literally just over 6 months of TWR. I agree with Huntress - keep the lore discussions in the threads that spark them (if only so this thread doesn't completely die + get buried in between steps xD) |
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Post by Ian Wolf-Park on Apr 9, 2018 16:13:39 GMT -5
I saw someone post on board 7 that today is the 184th day of the plot so far. That is literally just over 6 months of TWR. I agree with Huntress - keep the lore discussions in the threads that spark them (if only so this thread doesn't completely die + get buried in between steps xD) Yep, that's slow, compared to past plots, and that's including the release of the prize shops Atlas of the Ancients (Oct-Dec 2009, roughly 2 months) The Return of Doctor Sloth (Jan-Mar 2008, roughly 2 1/2 months) The Faerie's Ruin (Sept 2010-Jan 2011, roughly 4 months) Tale of Woe (Oct-Nov 2006, roughly 1 month) Journey to the Lost Isle (Apr-July 2007, roughly 3 months) War of the Obelisk (Feb-Apr 2013, roughly 2 months) Granted, it is the first plot for Jumpstart, so they're probably still learning the ropes on how to create a plot. |
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).
Maybe we should make a "Neopian Theory, Mystery, & Conspiracy" thread where we can discuss these without having to put them in spoiler tags. 
