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Post by Blu on Oct 21, 2014 15:02:11 GMT -5
So, while I know my level of writing is not 'publishiable' yet. I am still incredibly curious about the publishing process. For anyone who has been published in the real world, what did you publish, through what source did you publish (self publish agent etc). Basically just rant about the process? I really want to be an author, a publish author, nothing like J.K Rowling or Stephen King, but something and I would love to start getting an idea of the process. Especially since books are going electronic on nooks and kindles (shutters)
Edit: if this is the wrong thread please notify me.
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Post by Breakingchains on Oct 21, 2014 15:38:08 GMT -5
I haven't published yet, but I've read a lot about the process. There's a ton of information out there if you want to start digging around.
The typical traditional publishing process is, get an agent (so you don't get ripped off), let them sell the book, get an average of $5,000 as an advance, market it in your own ways on your own time so you "sell through" the advance before the print run ends (this just means that your book earns back that $5,000.) Once you sell through, you start earning royalties on any new sales, which will continue as long as the book stays in print. When it stops doing well it will fall out of print. Once it does fall out of print, you have to wait to get your rights to the material back (IIRC it's usually two years? I could be misremembering) before you can take your work elsewhere.
(Added fun fact--if you want to traditional-publish a work, don't put that work in full online unless it is behind a password wall. Publishers usually only want to buy the first-publication rights.)
Electronic publishing is much more of a full-time job in the marketing department since you're doing it all on your own. You will have to handle your own tax stuff and know when it's time to cut the IRS a check. You have to know you're a cut above the competition, and you have to know how to market effectively. But if you stay on the ball then it's much more fair to you as a writer than traditional publishing would be, because you earn way more per book and start earning it right away, and can keep your rights. If you specifically want physical copies of the book to be available, Lulu does that--and they print them as they're ordered then take a cut of the sale, rather than charge up-front and then saddle you with like 500 substandard copies to stuff in your garage, the way the old "vanity presses" did (or do? I don't know, are those things still hanging on like a bad odor?)
On that note, there are always lots and lots and lots of publishing scams and when the time comes that you're ready to publish you should do research on what that looks like. (The industry is constantly changing so new stuff will probably have popped up by then.) The basic guideline is that money should be flowing toward you, not the other way around, and if someone wants to charge you anything out-of-pocket to read or publish then runnnnnnn.
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Post by Blu on Oct 21, 2014 15:48:13 GMT -5
Breakingchains so your first paragraph, in summary to make sure I understand, they drop about 5k on it and its up to the author to advertise it so that it makes more than 5k? And Lulu is the place I have looked into so far. It seems to good to be true so I am digging more into it. What are some examples of the scams if you can name any?
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Post by Breakingchains on Oct 21, 2014 16:48:25 GMT -5
Yeah. They give you $5,000, and then the book has to make $5,000 back before you start getting any additional money. (Important: one thing I found out relatively recent is, only the percent that you would have gotten as royalties, about 10%, counts toward this "sell-through", not the entire book price--the rest was their cut to begin with. So you're actually looking at selling a lot more than $5,000 worth of books.) Now, if your book fails to earn back the advance money, it's not like you have to pay it back or anything, but it can mark you as an author whose books don't sell well. Technically you don't have to do any marketing, but realistically you should. You don't want the reputation of poor sales hanging over your name, so it's a good idea to do a bunch of your own legwork. Scams take a lot of different forms. Sometimes it's a vanity press that claims to be selective and on par with "real" publishing, when all they really do is print whatever comes through the door as long as it's not, like, a hate speech manifesto written in chatspeak or something. Sometimes it'll be someone calling themselves an agent or "book doctor" (that is, an independent editor) and they'll charge you a boatload to supposedly guarantee publication for your work, then either disappear or produce substandard results. Sometimes it's a "competition" that will take your submission for free, then claim it's the best thing since sliced bread and that all you have to do now is give them $200 in ill-defined "fees" or for a copy of the anthology, etc.. This is why I say the red flag is charging you money when they really ought to be paying you. Now, some competitions will have a legit entry fee (though many are totally free). And some "book doctors" are honest professionals, but these ones will openly prove that they have actual experience in the field and they will have a good reputation. But agents and publishers who charge the author are not agents and publishers, they are scam artists and printing presses, respectively. Writer Beware is a good website to read if you want to know more or check and see if they've got a specific party blacklisted. And yeah, by all means find some authors who have done business with Lulu and see what they think. I'm planning to use them since I've spoken to several who are quite happy with them, and I know they make their money off book sales rather than off the author (good sign) and have solid quality-control rules (good sign). But always do your own research!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2014 16:58:25 GMT -5
I can vouch for Lulu--I use it to sell print copies of my own stuff, as does another indie author I know, and Lulu is very reputable.
I highly recommend doing as Breakingchains says and doing an Internet search for information on both traditional and independent publishing, and scams to watch out for. There are a number of highly informative websites out there that exist just to answer your questions, and can cover them much more in-depth and with a greater level of experience than, I think, most of us here.
Another thing you can do is join a writers' association, either online or in your area. Although they might have a membership fee, writers' associations usually have a good number of members who have been professionally published and they can answer any and all questions you might have about the process. Barring that, if you know anyone who has been published, such as a relative, a teacher, etc., you can ask them.
Chains already went over the gist of both publishing methods, so I'll tell you a little bit about my own experiences.
When I finished my novel, my first thought was to publish it traditionally. That has its obvious benefits: it's more visible on the market and you generally make more money. So I started sending query letters out to agents. Be forewarned that this is a long, tedious process. You aren't going to find an interested agent overnight, and if your book's themes aren't what's trending on the market (for example, right now dystopian YA is really hot thanks to The Hunger Games), it's going to take a very long time.
That's what happened to me. For several months, I sent my query to a new batch of agents weekly, and got nothing but rejections (they were nicely worded, but still rejections). Once, an agent actually expressed interest and asked to see a portion of the manuscript, but after I gave it to her she decided it wasn't what she was looking for, after all.
In the midst of that, I got in contact with a traditionally published author and she directed me to her writer's blog, which was full of reviews of other books, contests, giveaways, and information on public appearances. I realized that this was not how I wanted to approach being an author.
At the same time, I finally grew tired of trying to lure in agents, and decided that if nobody wanted to give my book a second look just because it wasn't trendy and flashy, I didn't want to work with them anyway. xD So I turned to indie publishing because a friend's mom was doing the same thing, and she seemed satisfied with it. Publishing for electronic devices via Amazon's Kindle Digital Publishing program was quick and painless. Then people started asking if they could buy a physical copy, so I turned to Lulu, which was also a quick and painless process (if you don't mind building your own cover). Yes, you have to handle the technical details yourself, but you are, essentially, your own agent and publisher, and that's a wonderful feeling.
While I'd successfully self-published, I still harbored the desire to be noticed by an agent and/or publisher at some point. Then I joined a writers' association earlier this year and found myself in the company of several traditionally-published authors. Hearing them talk about their process made me rethink that. They always talked about how much stress they were under, deadlines and tours and exchanges with the publisher and their agent, while also having to maintain a public presence via social media. There's also the fact that agents and publishers will often ask authors to alter a manuscript to make it more marketable, which many authors understandably find objectionable. Despite the image we often have of the author living in a self-contained utopia of creative bliss, the reality is quite the opposite, with the poor author being constantly besieged by their agent, their publisher, and the public and media to at least some extent.
So, that's why I picked indie publishing. I make next to nothing, and nobody knows who I am, but I value my health and sanity far more. If you want to pursue traditional publishing, that's awesome, but definitely be aware of the advantages and disadvantages of each method, and decide which one works best for you and your priorities.
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Post by Blu on Oct 21, 2014 17:04:29 GMT -5
@surfersquid what is the title of your book. Also, on Lulu they seemed to have editors and people you could consult with. Have you worked with any of them?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2014 17:09:15 GMT -5
My book's called. Skydwellers. It's a quirky high fantasy that's pretty much the literary opposite of The Hunger Games. Which, I suppose, is why no agent wanted it. xD
I've not worked with anyone on Lulu, so I can't say how effective that is. I have a professional screenwriter/story consultant friend who beta reads my work, and I consulted my aformentioned friend's mom about the technical aspects of publishing. (Although I really have to say, on Lulu it's very straightforward.)
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Post by Blu on Oct 21, 2014 17:11:54 GMT -5
My book's called. Skydwellers. It's a quirky high fantasy that's pretty much the literary opposite of The Hunger Games. Which, I suppose, is why no agent wanted it. xD I've not worked with anyone on Lulu, so I can't say how effective that is. I have a professional screenwriter/story consultant friend who beta reads my work, and I consulted my aformentioned friend's mom about the technical aspects of publishing. (Although I really have to say, on Lulu it's very straightforward.) Ya so far Lulu looks like it might be the way that I go. I met a guy at a Superhero convention who sold some of his books there and autographed them so they seemed special... still haven't actually read that book... Anyway like I was saying, Lulu looks straightforward and to good to be true and that is why I am skeptical. Part of me might make an account just so I can delve deeper into it. I also like that you can sell your book on Lulu but I need the details and that little fine print.
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Post by Stephanie (swordlilly) on Oct 21, 2014 20:02:29 GMT -5
Before you think about publishing, it's good to ask yourself some basic questions first. 1) Why do you want to get published? 2) Do you feel ready, as a writer and as a person, to share what you've written with an audience? Another way to think about this is: Say you put your work out there. In five years' time, or even ten years' time, how would you feel about having that work attached to your name? How do you feel right now about stuff you've written a few years ago? 3) What kind of audience do you want to reach? Publishing is essentially sharing your work with an audience, and there are personal costs to it. You may not feel it on Neopets, because we are a friendly community on here. And we read your work for free; we aren't evaluating it as a product. Out there in the real world people judge you. People have expectations when they're looking at a commodity, and their judgments can be harsh. Publishing will affect your personal life, so it is important to think about that. Think about what you want, deep down in your heart, and what (if anything) you're willing to sacrifice for it. I had a book published by a vanity press when I was fifteen. In retrospect, I'd prefer I hadn't done that, for the personal reasons I've hinted at; but I understand why my past self did so, and I don't resent or judge her for it. I guess one motivating factor is that my family came out of a post-Maoist, newly capitalist background. So when friends and relatives got together to talk about their children, and everybody else was saying things like, "My son is in engineering," or "My daughter is in finance," my parents probably felt defensive about me heading toward the humanities. Simply saying, "That's what she likes!" didn't seem enough. Having a book published seemed like some sort of proof that I was doing legit work. It wasn't a horrible experience. My parents paid $700, which included editing services and design work. The finished product looks fairly clean and professional, and contains no typos or grammatical errors. (There are some issues with word choice, but that's because I hadn't adjusted to the North American vernacular.) I didn't earn back all of the $700, but I earned a mention in a local community newspaper, and I was somewhat of a minor celebrity at my school. Some of the people I knew bought copies, and so did the local library. I could probably have sold more copies if I marketed it aggressively, but my mom wanted me to prioritize schoolwork. She had a disagreement with my dad over it, and she won. What I had was essentially a bubble. And now when I look back at it, I'm not that proud of it anymore. The book is really not great in terms of plot or character design. Those of my friends who remember it also seem to judge me because of it. (Though I don't know how much of that is just my perception.) Where I am right now is that I've decided to put my academic career first, and my writing second. I know professors who do creative writing on the side; it seems like the kind of lifestyle I want. Majority of the time reading, writing and teaching. As opposed to majority of the time traveling from place to place, signing books, interviewing, posing in pictures and all that. So in terms of genre, I've strayed away from mainstream commercial and am heading towards literary. If you're interested in this genre, a good way to get started is to look into literary magazines, the ones that are well-known enough to be available at your local university library. Borrow a couple of back issues of each magazine and read them to get a feel for what their focus is. Some are regional, and some have political or cultural affiliations. Some are interested in cutting-edge experimental. Look also into their sources of funding and support, and where they get their staff members from. When you decide on the right venue for your work, you would need to format your manuscript accordingly, and include a cover-letter. There are lots of style guides and cover-letter guides on the Internet. Generally, if you're just submitting to a regular issue, you shouldn't need to pay anything. If you're submitting to a contest, you may need to pay an entrance fee of around $20 which should include a subscription. I believe Birdy got a story published in a literary magazine a few months ago. I'm getting a story published, too, soon, in a literary magazine with a feminist focus. They are paying me a small honorarium and a year's subscription, which I'm grateful for. This feels right to me. I feel like I'm just being myself, sharing a story with an audience I trust, rather than pretending to be someone I'm not for the purposes of attention or whatever. Anyway, that's what my personal experience has been so far, regarding publishing. Hopefully it is of use to someone.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2014 21:22:25 GMT -5
Building on what Stephanie (swordlilly) said, I'm really enjoying indie publishing because I can set my own schedule. No one's telling me to do book tours or interviews. I don't have to aggressively market to earn back a certain amount. I can put my stuff out there, inform people that it's out, and then move on. And that's what matters most to me when it comes to writing: making something the best it can be, releasing it for people to enjoy, and then diving right into the next fun project. I'm not sure when I'm going to get around to publishing another novel--and I'm totally okay with that. I'm an illustrator and game animator by profession, and I also greatly enjoy being able to devote large amounts of my time to my family. Indie publishing allows me to keep those things my priority, and focus on the actual creating aspect of writing, not the hectic traveling and social media and advertising that I see so many other authors caught up in.
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Post by Blu on Oct 21, 2014 21:54:58 GMT -5
Stephanie (swordlilly) and @surfersquid Thank you both for the input. Stephanie, what is the title of your book if I may know? I don't judge teenage authors but I am interested in looking at it nonetheless. Furthermore, I am really just trying to get an idea of how I want to go about publishing. Whether I want to go traditional or Indie because that effects my audience a little. Right now, I do not feel my writing is good enough for the public eye (that is beyond Neo and NTWF) at some point though, I know I need to graduate and try writing something for real so the more information I have on the business the better I feel about it. If that makes sense.
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Post by Stephanie (swordlilly) on Oct 23, 2014 15:00:50 GMT -5
Blu Definitely consider joining an IRL writers' alliance like the one Squid is in, or, in my case, get involved with creative writing people at a university. You'll find connections that way, develop your craft, and build up your reputation. The tl;dr of my post: I made a mistake by going to a vanity press. While I don't "regret" it in the sense that I understand my past self and don't resent her for making that choice, I would not advise any young writers to do it. So, don't do it. Btw I see "traditional" and "indie" as part of a spectrum, not as opposites. Somebody always has to front some money in the beginning to get the book out. If the publisher is doing it 100%, then they also get to organize events for you, tinker with your manuscript, etc., and you kinda have to do what they say since they're paying for you. If you 100% self-publish, then you would need your own printing press and everything. Somewhere in between, but closer to the self-publishing end, would be things like vanity presses and Lulu. But whatever combination of traditional and self-publishing you choose, it's important to make connections first. Don't rush a book out into the world only for the sake of seeing it in print.
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Post by Blu on Oct 23, 2014 15:07:47 GMT -5
Stephanie (swordlilly) that is actually some really good advice and an interesting way of seeing self-publishing and traditional. I am a part of creative writers in my University (my fiction class in which the teacher is a published author) so I am at least beginning my connections. My fear is loosing them when I graduate this year though. How does one find IRL writer alliances? It sort of sounds like a union.
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Post by Stephanie (swordlilly) on Oct 23, 2014 15:13:55 GMT -5
That's a great start! I'm actually also just starting to make connections, myself. I took some creative writing classes as electives, and am still friends with a few people that I met in those classes. Facebook is a great way to keep in touch. I also try to attend the readings that are organized by the MFA (Master of Fine Arts) people at my university, even though I'm doing an Arts degree. Squid and others might be able to tell you a bit more about writer alliances. You could also try going to your professor's office hours and asking if s/he has any resources for you. Best of luck!! ^-^
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2014 15:29:22 GMT -5
Blu, if your teacher is a published author, I would definitely talk to them and ask them about their process. They can probably help more than most of us can. Writers' associations/alliances/etc. aren't anything like unions. They're not labor-based and have no impact on the industry. They're just clubs of people who get together to talk about writing and help each other with their craft, whether it be technical aspects like manuscript editing or business aspects such as hosting annual conferences with invited speakers and agents. The best way to find them would be to talk to writers you know, like your teacher. Usually they'll either be a part of at least one association themselves, or know of several. Barring that, you could probably do a Google search for "writers' associations" and get some good results, although you may want to narrow that search down to your geographical area, your preferred genres, etc. They can range from very general to very specific.
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