Queer characters in NT and how far we can take them

[Vine]

Hi there! So I've been trying to find info on how far we can take queer characters in the NT. I know referring to your characters as lesbian or gay or bi is not allowed because it's a dating issue, but what about transgender pets, crossdressing pets, or gender neutral pets? I'm specifically asking about comics, so it's going to be more showing than actual mentioning the words. So is this allowed? I have a gender neutral character in particular and the gender is only shown in passing, but that's it; the story doesn't focus on it at all. The character themself looks pretty gender neutral. Would it be allowed?
To be more specific, I need to know if drawing these scenes would be allowed:

1. Other characters using gender neutral pronouns for genderqueer characters, or using their name as pronoun
2. Them mentioning briefly that they want a certain pronoun
3. Gender neutral characters hesitating before choosing which bathroom/locker room to use
4. Pets that are dressed as girls using male pronouns and vice versa
5. Pets that cross dress only in some scenes

I know these are hot topics so they are censored from the boards, but in my WIP comic, these things are not mentioned in words, only expressed silently in the background. I remember a while ago that TNT said in an editorial that dressing your boy pet in girl's clothes wasn't against the rules and they should wear what they want, so I was wondering if this translated into NT pieces as well. Thanks a lot! Any feedback from staff or writers who have tried this or are planning to try this will be appreciated!

[Selm]

From my experience as a genderqueer user, these things are acceptable if completely dissociated from any kind of politics attached to them. Terms like transgender, agender, crossdressing, etc. are almost always inherently evocative of political and social issues and will pretty much guarantee a rejection. Even having a pet described explicitly as "not male or female" draws attention to their non-normativeness and can still cause a submission to be rejected. Alternative gender-neutral pronouns such as xyrself, hirself, etc. can also be rejected for the same reason.

Basically, the existence of their identity isn't the cause for rejection. But calling attention to the queer nature of their identity is a different matter, even if it's as brief as an offhand mention of their pronoun preference. It's a very tricky balancing act; the only thing that makes it "against the rules" is its tie to political issues, so you have to find a way to remove that aspect of the identity. And even if it adheres to the rules, it could still be rejected for other reasons like being confusing, or reasons that aren't even given.

Things that can more easily get through are characters with an androgynous appearance who are never referred to with gendered terms or as being any one gender(this is my preferred approach when it comes to NT stories). And the thing about crossdressing neopets is that every instance I've seen of "crossdressing" neopets has been a joke at the expense of the neopet in question. So it could be difficult to casually have an explicitly male-identified neopet in feminine clothing without there being confusion about the comic's punchline from the readership and the editors. It's possible having a gender-neutral character hesitate at bathrooms would be accepted, since that situation closely mirrors struggles of genderqueer individuals in real life, which would be a political issue.

But these are just my own observations and hypotheses. Droplet, if she is able to take the time to respond, would certainly be able to offer a clearer explanation of what is and isn't allowed.

[Nut]

I referred to myself using "their" in an Art Gallery entry once, in a really offhanded way that doesn't draw attention to it (but then, it's not completely clear that the speaker is referring to anyone specific). If the pronoun usage feels natural I don't think it should be an issue in a comic whose main focus is elsewhere, but it might be one if the grammar is unconventional to the point of breaking flow or giving the reader pause (so non-traditional pronouns like ze/hir etc. seem iffy but I can't say for sure). I would suggest slipping it in subtly and naturally rather than calling attention to it, as Selm said. (And that sounds like what you want to do anyway.)

I don't see why crossdressing should be an issue, since as you pointed out it's completely possible to do so on the site itself, and just because past comics have used it as a punchline doesn't mean you have to (and I'm sure you'd present it in a way that would discourage that interpretation). It might be a bigger deal if that were the focus of the strip, depending on how it were presented, but it doesn't sound like that's the case.

So, I think your scenes 1, 4, and 5 could be slipped in without much worry, but 2 and 3 seem unlikely because of how they draw attention to the matter.

...Speaking of, how many editorials ago was it that TNT said they'd do something about forcing you to display a binary gender on your user lookup? It would be nice if they'd fix that soon. <__<

[Selm]

Aug 16, 2014 5:36:28 GMT -5 Nut said:

I referred to myself using "their" in an Art Gallery entry once, in a really offhanded way that doesn't draw attention to it (but then, it's not completely clear that the speaker is referring to anyone specific). If the pronoun usage feels natural I don't think it should be an issue in a comic whose main focus is elsewhere, but it might be one if the grammar is unconventional to the point of breaking flow or giving the reader pause (so non-traditional pronouns like ze/hir etc. seem iffy but I can't say for sure). I would suggest slipping it in subtly and naturally rather than calling attention to it, as Selm said. (And that sounds like what you want to do anyway.)

I don't see why crossdressing should be an issue, since as you pointed out it's completely possible to do so on the site itself, and just because past comics have used it as a punchline doesn't mean you have to (and I'm sure you'd present it in a way that would discourage that interpretation). It might be a bigger deal if that were the focus of the strip, depending on how it were presented, but it doesn't sound like that's the case.

So, I think your scenes 1, 4, and 5 could be slipped in without much worry, but 2 and 3 seem unlikely because of how they draw attention to the matter.

...Speaking of, how many editorials ago was it that TNT said they'd do something about forcing you to display a binary gender on your user lookup? It would be nice if they'd fix that soon. <__<

Just to clarify, when I brought up that crossdressing had been used as a punchline, I meant that it's possible what Vine is talking about could be a grounds for rejection under having an unclear/confusing punchline, depending on the prominence of the character in question. I definitely wouldn't want to discourage anyone from including a crossdressing character or suggest that it would be impossible to include a crossdressing character without an element of humour. But the image of a male-identified or "masculine" person in traditionally feminine clothing is itself a punchline in our society; it's impossible not to draw attention to that. Female-identified or "female-appearing" persons wearing conventionally masculine attire like suits is a somewhat less stigmatized image. So that would be easier to include.

Actually, I think it could be helpful to briefly call attention to a male crossdressing character, just to clear up possible confusion. Something very casual like "Why is he wearing that?" "Right? I tried to tell him red isn't in this season, but he wouldn't listen." Or having a character compliment his outfit to establish that within the setting, it isn't meant to be abnormal or strange or funny, regardless of how it may be interpreted. That way the readership wouldn't be waiting for an explanation or a punchline that won't happen. You could even turn it into a punchline not at the expense of the crossdressing pet and have something like a male UC pet complain about not being able to wear cute dresses, too.

A bit off-topic but Issue 572 is where TNT said alternative gender display options were a long-requested feature in the works, although the wording makes it unclear whether they were talking about the "other" option or the "hidden" option.

[Vine]

Thank you very much both of you! I was really hoping I could use the bathroom scene but I guess it's true that it would be a political issue.

I forgot to mention that I'm planning the comic to be a series, with a manga format, so I won't necessarily have punchlines at the end of every comic, just a to-be-continued (I'm assuming that this is allowed since I remember seeing continued comics that ended on a serious note, so I'm hoping I'm not rejected for using this format).

Since it's a comic series I'm planning on submitting them in batches so I'll try submitting the problematic scene anyway and see if they reject it in particular. And if they do I'll send in an alternate version of those pages without the offending scenes. Thanks a lot!!

[Komori]

Aug 17, 2014 0:42:22 GMT -5 Vine said:

I forgot to mention that I'm planning the comic to be a series, with a manga format, so I won't necessarily have punchlines at the end of every comic, just a to-be-continued (I'm assuming that this is allowed since I remember seeing continued comics that ended on a serious note, so I'm hoping I'm not rejected for using this format).

Any comic series that are in a to-be-continued format have to be submitted all-at-once, and I think the limit is still around 12-15 comics max, before you have to give it an ending. (At least, an ending to that arc. You can start up a new arc afterwards.)

[Vine]

Aug 21, 2014 12:19:53 GMT -5 Komori said:

Aug 17, 2014 0:42:22 GMT -5 Vine said:

I forgot to mention that I'm planning the comic to be a series, with a manga format, so I won't necessarily have punchlines at the end of every comic, just a to-be-continued (I'm assuming that this is allowed since I remember seeing continued comics that ended on a serious note, so I'm hoping I'm not rejected for using this format).

Any comic series that are in a to-be-continued format have to be submitted all-at-once, and I think the limit is still around 12-15 comics max, before you have to give it an ending. (At least, an ending to that arc. You can start up a new arc afterwards.)

(eek it's komori!! *_*)
Thank you for letting me know!! Okay I'll definitely need to keep that in mind; I hadn't thought about having to submit the complete arc together. (I'm probably asking stupid questions but I want to be totally sure before I set anything in concrete so bear with me) I had originally planned to just submit until I hit the limit every time, regardless of arcs, but I guess I can't do that. What if I end an arc before 15 comics? For example if I ended an arc in 8 comics, could I submit only 8 comics at a time, and then the next 8 the next time? And would writing 'to be continued' at the end of an arc be appropriate if they expect the story to be resolved? And I hope we have liberty with naming them regardless of arcs (ie if I just have a title for the entire series plus #1,2,3 etc instead of naming each arc in the title) Thanks a lot!! I'm so nervous about pulling this off >.<

[Coaster]

*more of a general NT note, but*

I think the submit-all-at-once policy only applies if you do it in an explicitly "to-be-continued" manner. If each comic stands well enough by itself (even if numbered), you can get away with one at a time. i should know, i did it 30 times in a row

[Komori]

Aug 24, 2014 17:06:42 GMT -5 Coaster said:

*more of a general NT note, but*

I think the submit-all-at-once policy only applies if you do it in an explicitly "to-be-continued" manner. If each comic stands well enough by itself (even if numbered), you can get away with one at a time. i should know, i did it 30 times in a row

Yeah, but she -did- say she wasn't going to necessarily have punchlines at the end of each strip.


Anyway, each arc doesn't -have- to be 15 each. It's just a maximum amount, because the editor's got to give other people a potential shot to be in the NT. So no, I wouldn't put "to-be-continued" at the end of the arc, that defeats the purpose. XD

[Loaym]

I'm actually curious since I have a gender neutral neopet who I was planning to put in a comic series and/or story as well. :x I'm kind of glad to see there are others with actual non-binary characters outside of the typical "lab rats" and crossdressing jokes.

I'd like to see what happens with this since it might be helpful to see as a guide for what I'd be able to get away with too. For the most part their gender is unaddressed and a complete non-issue, but obviously there are a few times where it's REALLY hard to get around the fact that androgynous people do tend to cause some confusion when having to refer to them in certain situations. Especially in a story, I'm not sure if I'd be able to get away with "they/them" pronouns or if I would have to wind up choosing one or the other.

[Selm]

Sept 9, 2014 23:55:50 GMT -5 Loaym said:

I'm actually curious since I have a gender neutral neopet who I was planning to put in a comic series and/or story as well. :x I'm kind of glad to see there are others with actual non-binary characters outside of the typical "lab rats" and crossdressing jokes.

I'd like to see what happens with this since it might be helpful to see as a guide for what I'd be able to get away with too. For the most part their gender is unaddressed and a complete non-issue, but obviously there are a few times where it's REALLY hard to get around the fact that androgynous people do tend to cause some confusion when having to refer to them in certain situations. Especially in a story, I'm not sure if I'd be able to get away with "they/them" pronouns or if I would have to wind up choosing one or the other.

@natthewriter wrote a story for the NT with an agender neopet who uses "they" pronouns, which was recently held over. As long as the focus of the story isn't the gender itself, and it doesn't completely interfere with comprehension, having a genderqueer character and using "they" pronouns in reference to said character is acceptable.

If you're uncertain about whether or not a certain submission is acceptable, you may want to consider contacting Droplet personally; or, you can submit it regardless and if it's rejected for inappropriate or political themes, you'll know you need to censor yourself a little more.

[Loaym]

Sept 10, 2014 0:33:46 GMT -5 Selm said:

@natthewriter wrote a story for the NT with an agender neopet who uses "they" pronouns, which was recently held over. As long as the focus of the story isn't the gender itself, and it doesn't completely interfere with comprehension, having a genderqueer character and using "they" pronouns in reference to said character is acceptable.

If you're uncertain about whether or not a certain submission is acceptable, you may want to consider contacting Droplet personally; or, you can submit it regardless and if it's rejected for inappropriate or political themes, you'll know you need to censor yourself a little more.

That's really good to know, thanks. I'll probably keep an eye out for that story, or if you know of any others that include non-binary characters in the NT right now I'd be curious to see how it's handled. I do intend to keep it out of focus as much as possible, I'm hoping their personality and role in the story would stand out enough that people don't even care about their gender. (They're very enthusiastic and loud and fun but also a bit of an oddball)

I'm just worried about how it might be hard to keep it from standing out when it's probably outside of what a lot of readers are used to. (Just thinking of the few gender neutral or left-to-interpretation characters there are in popular media/fandoms I'm aware of, a lot of people sometimes act like they "have to know" whether they're a boy or a girl or make it into a huge deal/argument and it's kind of sad that that's the way things are.)

Thank you for the advice!

[Selm]

Sept 10, 2014 1:41:07 GMT -5 Loaym said:

Sept 10, 2014 0:33:46 GMT -5 Selm said:

@natthewriter wrote a story for the NT with an agender neopet who uses "they" pronouns, which was recently held over. As long as the focus of the story isn't the gender itself, and it doesn't completely interfere with comprehension, having a genderqueer character and using "they" pronouns in reference to said character is acceptable.

If you're uncertain about whether or not a certain submission is acceptable, you may want to consider contacting Droplet personally; or, you can submit it regardless and if it's rejected for inappropriate or political themes, you'll know you need to censor yourself a little more.

That's really good to know, thanks. I'll probably keep an eye out for that story, or if you know of any others that include non-binary characters in the NT right now I'd be curious to see how it's handled. I do intend to keep it out of focus as much as possible, I'm hoping their personality and role in the story would stand out enough that people don't even care about their gender. (They're very enthusiastic and loud and fun but also a bit of an oddball)

I'm just worried about how it might be hard to keep it from standing out when it's probably outside of what a lot of readers are used to. (Just thinking of the few gender neutral or left-to-interpretation characters there are in popular media/fandoms I'm aware of, a lot of people sometimes act like they "have to know" whether they're a boy or a girl or make it into a huge deal/argument and it's kind of sad that that's the way things are.)

Thank you for the advice!

I believe the title of Nat's work is "She and the Spectre" if you want to keep an eye out for it. I'm not an avid Times reader so I don't know of any other genderqueer NT characters.

Oh man, Crona from Soul Eater instantly comes to mind as soon as you say that, haha. But the good thing about the NT is that there really won't be a large amount of users discussing it obnoxiously and extensively if it somehow bothers them(which is silly of them anyway). I read Nat's story before it was submitted and there is an exchange(if you don't mind me saying so, Nat) where the gender-neutral character is asked whether they're a boy or a girl and they reply with "neither". Considering that TNT has repeatedly proved their awareness of the existence of a nonbinary userbase(editorial #572 and the JumpStart survey), and I've mentioned my pronoun preference and gender identity on the boards several times, and I and several other nonbinary users I know have put our pronoun preferences and gender identities on our userlookups, I'd say TNT will handle it more maturely than you might expect. After all, the NT editors have the final say on whether or not it's accepted into the Times, and Droplet's seemed pretty cool about it. I don't really think they heavily take into account the potential audience response when choosing submissions, more if it's well-written and within the rules.

Really, if it does seem to "stand out", chances are that's reflective of the audience, not the work. It is something that lies outside most people's realms of knowledge, but that doesn't mean you have to cater to them and put extra effort into making it more comfortable and usual; especially if, like you said, it's not central to the story or even to the character in the first place. If people get hung up on it or get into arguments and start hunting for "clues" about the character's "true gender", that's really their problem. But not everyone reacts that way, and even if it does appear to stand out to a portion of the audience, that doesn't affect the quality of the story or its chances of being accepted.

From what you've said, I think you'll be perfectly fine writing your character. I strongly doubt you'll run into problems if it's not a point of focus and just a fact of the character.

[Deleted]

I didn't know TNT allowed gender-neutral characters. That's neat and really progressive of them

[Lord Hayati]

She and the spectre was just accepted, for those following nat's tumblr. ^^;