How much school is enough?

[Nimras]

Random topic. Since I'm graduating uni in four weeks (finally : I'm curious as to how much school people feel is enough school to have a good life in the modern, 21st century world.

My grandfather, for example, only went though 9th grade. His wife -- my step-grandmother -- only went to school though 4th grade. My mother only went though high school, while my father was a chemist with an associates degree. Now I'm going to have two degrees (history and French) from a major university, and my sister just graduated with her degree in English from a different big university. We're both planning on graduate school.

This is really one of those topics where I'm pretty sure there is not a "right" or a "wrong," I'm just really curious. How long do you think someone "should" stay in school until? Why? Why not?

[Ian Wolf-Park]

If a person thinks that they need more enrichment by going to graduate school, then it's their decision. Similarly, if a person has to drop out due to RL issues, again, it's their decision.

Of course, times have changed. Like you mentioned, Nim, grandparents would probably have up to a high school diploma at the most (or lack of) as they would have been expected to help out on the farm a lot, making it near impossible for them to complete high school and beyond. Now, the majority of jobs require at least a university degree or college diploma.

[Huntress]

Ask the employers x'D

Here at least, employers have majorly geared towards lifetime studies. Higher education has devalued a lot, everyone and their grandma has a degree and it's hard for employers to decide between potential employees if they all have a degree but one might've worked hard for it while another just had daddy's thick wallet. As a result, most if not all companies won't even look at you if you don't have a master's degree. Or won't look at the degree at all and instead ask for a job experience, because that's a) rarer, therefore easier to weed people out and b) more likely to net them someone who actually knows what they're doing and can plausibly be expected to work well with other people. (My mom is a middle manager and she once showed me how she went through a huge pile of applications. "See this? Impressive degrees, nearly 30 but no job experience whatsoever. Toss.")

And even if you land a job and start working towards a career path, you're not out of the woods yet. You'll need to go on training courses every year at the very least. From personal experience, being a teacher is largely one long struggle of proving that you're worth being a teacher (which means state-paid training trips out of worktime, so I'm not really complaining xD)

It's hard to stay on the ball these days if you just have a high school diploma and a lot of gusto, frankly. We live a fast life with insane amounts of new information and quick human connections all over the globe. By the time you've had your degree for ten years, it may well be outdated, so there's no choice but to go and track down some training courses to see what's changed in the meantime (and be able to prove to your employer that you know what's changed in the meantime, which is basically the part that counts).

[Deleted]

Hmmm...this is an interesting subject. I think, in terms of years of education, it would largely depend on each individual person, and so some people are going to need more than others. However, since public schools have such a large amount of students, they just can't attend to everyone's individual needs, so that's why I think the 12-grade system works so well. (And some can just use their senior year to have fun. Next year, as a junior, I'm getting all the boringness out of the way so senior year can be fun.)

One thing I do think needs changing is that people's career preferences need to be considered when looking at classes. People who know right now what they want to be should be able to check a box of what area of career they're interested in (e.g. I would choose "performing arts") and then, school administrators would determine how much of the core classes they really need to take to make their way in the real world. For example, a writer would probably need a lot of English but not calculus.

Also, I think middle school (and perhaps high school) needs a recess option. Recess is important! People need to get out and run around once in a while. And I'll tell you why it's beneficial: there's no one telling you what kind of exercise you have to do like in P.E. Adults also enjoy tree/playground swings. I'm almost 17 and I have a tree swing that I love. Also, I find that running or moving around in general, for me, sparks creative thoughts and ideas. You know why you don't get that in PE? You're too busy trying to keep your heart rate up or run the whole mile. Not much time for sparks. And people need those sparks! They lead to great ideas, which often lead to making the world better, and as a result, making the person happier. If you must insist against a playground, let the older kids and teens at least run around outdoors and have fun that way. We will shake off stress and return to school full of wonderous thoughts.

[Cow-winkle]

I don't think I'd be breaking any new ground in saying that it can vary from person to person, or in saying that I think it's important for people to try to keep learning for their whole lives.

I think it's important to be able to read, write and do basic arithmetic. In terms of formal schooling, that usually means at least some elementary school. But in the "modern, 21st century world", if a person wants to participate in society or understand what they read in magazines or on the internet, it's also helpful to know a little something about history and science, and for obvious reasons it's useful for everyone to know a bit about computer science and programming. Even watching a show like Futurama, a person can get more enjoyment if they have enough knowledge to understand some of the more obscure jokes.

People sometimes forget that there are health benefits to having education. A person who knows about the science behind nutrition and exercise is likely to be healthier than someone who doesn't. Not to mention the fact that, although a lot of people say ignorance is bliss, that's not always true; not understanding things can be stressful.

I think that most people could profit from some university-level education, but nowadays, that doesn't always mean having to go to a physical university. There are plenty of websites where you can watch lectures and look at course material for free, not to mention the fact that most schools have online distance education programs.

The one thing I have an issue with is the emphasis that people and businesses put on having a piece of paper (a diploma or degree) that says you've learned something. But degree inflation is kind of another topic.

(Currently studying cognitive science and mathematics at university)

[Deleted]

What do you guys think of my recess argument?

[Terra]

Jul 18, 2011 12:58:21 GMT -5 @saeryena said:

One thing I do think needs changing is that people's career preferences need to be considered when looking at classes. People who know right now what they want to be should be able to check a box of what area of career they're interested in (e.g. I would choose "performing arts") and then, school administrators would determine how much of the core classes they really need to take to make their way in the real world. For example, a writer would probably need a lot of English but not calculus.

The problem with that is that young people change their minds so often about what they want to do with their lives. I don't remember the statistics, but some huge percentage of college students change their majors at least once while they're in college. Also, if students choose what they want to do too early, what if they don't explore some area that they would have found that they really enjoyed? I think it's important to explore many different areas before choosing one.

Also, with performing arts in particular...that field in general is so unstable that anyone going into it is almost certainly going to need a day job. Most people in performance art can't support themselves purely on the income they get while performing. It's good to have extra skills to put to use for other jobs, just so you can get by.

Jul 18, 2011 13:10:57 GMT -5 @saeryena said:

What do you guys think of my recess argument?

Sae, you only posted it fifteen minutes ago. Give people some time to respond. XD;

Personally, I don't feel like I'm qualified to answer this, because I've been homeschooled since third grade. XD I have a more freeform day because of this, and I could take a break and go outside and run around pretty much whenever I wanted, as long as I spent enough time on my work.

[Deleted]

Jul 18, 2011 13:10:57 GMT -5 @saeryena said:

What do you guys think of my recess argument?

Recess would be great, but the day of older students is already full. In order to fit in a recess, the day would have to be lengthened. That's… not exactly an agreeable option for most people.

[Ian Wolf-Park]

Sae, while having a recess for high school students may seem like a good idea on paper, in reality, it's not. With the large amount of students in a single building, each student with a unique schedule, it will be near impossible to coordinate recess at the same time. As well, specific classes are located in a specific area, so a student might have to travel from one end of the school to the other (especially for larger high schools), making recess a moot point if the person has to take 10 minutes to get to class (it's the main reason why high schools have buffer times instead)

[Deleted]

Jul 18, 2011 13:35:02 GMT -5 Ian Wolf-Park said:

Sae, while having a recess for high school students may seem like a good idea on paper, in reality, it's not. With the large amount of students in a single building, each student with a unique schedule, it will be near impossible to coordinate recess at the same time. As well, specific classes are located in a specific area, so a student might have to travel from one end of the school to the other (especially for larger high schools), making recess a moot point if the person has to take 10 minutes to get to class (it's the main reason why high schools have buffer times instead)

Then how are we going to relieve stress and get those sparks to ignite? Because, as stated about PE, they really don't happen under pressure. And for people who usually never go outside and sit at computers bored all day, just stepping outside in a moment of freedom might just be the thing they need to bring a little bit of...well, life into their life.

[Tiger]

Jul 18, 2011 13:39:59 GMT -5 @saeryena said:

Jul 18, 2011 13:35:02 GMT -5 Ian Wolf-Park said:

Sae, while having a recess for high school students may seem like a good idea on paper, in reality, it's not. With the large amount of students in a single building, each student with a unique schedule, it will be near impossible to coordinate recess at the same time. As well, specific classes are located in a specific area, so a student might have to travel from one end of the school to the other (especially for larger high schools), making recess a moot point if the person has to take 10 minutes to get to class (it's the main reason why high schools have buffer times instead)

Then how are we going to relieve stress and get those sparks to ignite? Because, as stated about PE, they really don't happen under pressure. And for people who usually never go outside and sit at computers bored all day, just stepping outside in a moment of freedom might just be the thing they need to bring a little bit of...well, life into their life.

Sae, maybe you should make this argument into a separate board. It's interesting, but kind of derails from what Nimras wanted to discuss =P

[Nimras]

Jul 18, 2011 13:10:57 GMT -5 @saeryena said:

What do you guys think of my recess argument?

I find it interesting, but worthy of a new topic of itself, as it's really not to the point of this discussion.

That said, I personally think there should be more required health and fitness education! You wouldn't believe how many people I've met who think that energy drinks are good for you because they've got "vitamins and stuff" (let's not mention the 12 tablespoons or so of sugar).

Perhaps the better way to phrase my original question would be "how long should someone stay in school and what should they have to learn to have a good life in this modern, 21st century world?"

[Deleted]

Well, I guess it also depends on where you are from?

I Denmark, education is free. You even get paid to go to school from you're 18.
It comes with a 'twist' though. It's like a 'punch card' where you only have so many punches that will provide you with the government financing your studies - to prevent people from being 'eternity students' as we call them. Of course, if you can survive without the government pay, then you can study all your life if you want. But that option is only available to the few (because we all know that being a student tend to disembowel your wallet).

But even if I take that into account, I still think that one should be realistic about their future and why they want to take the specific education. I have a BA in Social Education. It took me 3½ years of uni. I would love to study art/animation or to become a pastry chef. Both educations would take an additional 4 years. Right now, that just isn't an option because we wouldn't be able to survive.

But I'm also fond of taking breaks in between educations.

So basically, it's all about tactics and what you want to use your education for. A few years back, I wanted to be a psychologist, but that would take a minimum of 7 years. And I don't even think I was mentally ready to start the education back then. Now, perhaps. But 7 years? In 7 years from now I would be close to 40... and I'd like to have more kids before then xD

So yeah. Definitely be strategic and realistic about it. It's nice to gain knowledge and skills, but only if you can put them to a good use afterwards.

[Deleted]

My grandfather didn't get much in the way of schooling, but he was a pianist and carpenter, and he did both extremely well. Not well enough to make them rich, but well enough to provide for his wife and five kids. My grandmother was a nurse for many years and so had had quite a bit of training. Still, it probably wasn't nearly as much as what nurses go through nowadays. My father quit high school because he was dyslexic and they had no idea how to keep him, let alone teach him and he just got frustrated, but my mother did half a law degree, and half an accounting degree. Despite never graduating, she had enough credit under her belt to make it in the world ... but not so today. Right now she's studying to be an early learning teacher, and with her skills in money and management, she's hoping to open an early learning centre.

The whole point of this long ramble is that, I nearly have a degree in clinical psychology. If I quit right now, no one would even look twice as my resume. In NZ, you simply MUST have a tertiary education to get decent pay. That said, their are tertiary options that aren't university, and tradesmen work as they have since probably the dawn of civilization.

As far as the "why" goes, I suppose part of it might be the whole recession thing. Employers are less willing to hire new staff and so there's more competition for the openings. The higher your qual, the better chance you have. xD Or maybe that's just me?

[insanepurpleone]

It does vary from person to person, definitely. In the US I'd say getting through high school is the minimum I'd personally recommend. I think people need a basic understanding of the world around them. Reading, writing, math, science, history, health.. I also think there should be a lot more support for art/music programs in schools. And just basic knowledge about how to take care of ones self after school, such as cooking or how to write a good resume.. life skills classes like that are offered in a lot of high schools, but I've never seen any that were required. Although I understand that it's hard enough to fit in everything we expect kids to take as it is, so it is kind of a tough issue.

A lot is going to depend on what a person wants to do, job-wise as well as what sort of standard of living they expect, where they plan to live, whether or not they're having children.. and many of these aren't set in stone things, so it can be difficult.

It is possible to get by and have a decent standard of living with only a high school level education, but it's not easy. Especially in certain parts of the country, and especially if you have other people to support financially, working full time at minimum wage is barely enough to keep someone above the poverty line. (Just had a two hour lecture about welfare/poverty in my sociology class so this is particularly fresh in my mind.)

I think some form higher education is great and beneficial in the long run for a lot of people, assuming they can find a way to afford it, and have at least some idea of what they want to be doing. Having just finished my third year of undergrad at a university, I feel like there are a lot of people (myself included) who really don't have a clear plan for what they want out of their degree. Although depending on the area one is looking at, having a broad knowledge/education base from undergraduate education can be useful. So.. even I have a lot of conflicting feelings there.

Something I've noticed is that in most of my undergraduate classes, the professors automatically assume that almost everyone in their class wants to go to graduate school (which is sort of disheartening if you're one of the ones who don't ). I think graduate level schooling is really only useful if you have a clear plan, or something you're especially passionate about, more than any other level of school. Otherwise I'm not sure the extra time and money is worth it.