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Post by Fang of the Dead on May 31, 2011 17:45:52 GMT -5
Okay, since I'm with other writers and readers, I've wanted to ask one thing; Do rape scenes in fiction bother you as much as they bother me? My first example with an Attempted Rape in... Anything was in Back to the Future, but it was averted thanks to Mary and his dad. So, it didn't trouble me, since Biff was beaten down before he even took one of Marty's mom's clothes off. However, the thing that made me really hate rape scenes was a scene in the second Gurren Lagann movie. Now, as awesome as the series and the rest of the movies are, there was one scene that creeped me the hell out. It involved the Anti-Spiral (the Big Bad, a cross between a stick figure, a chalk drawing, and a Living Shadow) calls Nia, the show's resident Woobie and his Brainwashed and Crazy messenger (like the Silver Surfer, only, yannow, brainwashed), back to his world. In the series, the scene was more "normal;" he stretches one arm out, grabs her by her face, and starts disintegrating her. Still creepy, but not CREEPY creepy. In the movie, however, first, he dissolves her Tron-esque bodysuit, and then starts grabbing at her with tentacles. Then he starts hovering over her, as she starts struggling and eventually, he's right over her, making it look like he... You know. She visibly Gainaxes as if they're trying to make it look like he's... Ugh. Basically, that entire scene rubbed me the wrong way. For one thing, it was totally unnecessary and gratuitous since there was a less-creepy version of the scene in the show, and two... Why? Was it to make it more clear the Anti-Spiral is NOT sympathetic? Or was it just to appease the creepy otaku who obviously weren't satisified by Yoko (Who's a great character by the way) parading around in a bikini top and short shorts? The fact that it may have been intended as fanservice ticks me off big time. Hell, thinking about that scene makes me simultaneously depressed, unnerved, and P.O'd.  |
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Post by Breakingchains on May 31, 2011 18:49:38 GMT -5
Yes, I loathe such scenes. I feel they are unnecessarily gross and depressing, and they often ruin a piece of media for me - even if the scene and/or story ends happily, that one dark spot is enough to make me wish I'd never watched/read the piece. (And no, I don't really consider myself squeamish.) Often, I see it used solely as a Kick the Dog moment, as shorthand for "Hey, audience! YOU want this person to die!" Often, it's just a cheap, visceral way to get the readers hating the right person, when - for all the effect it usually has on the plot - you could have done the same thing more subtly by giving them a mustache to twirl and a throne made of human skulls. On the other side of the coin, it's also quite a Headdesk moment when the writer tosses it at a character solely to make her more sympathetic - gratuitous trauma, in other words, often done as a replacement for actual characterization skills. Now, I'm sure some writers are capable of handling this subject matter respectfully and delicately, making it clear that it is a horrific crime against other human beings without falling into Bile Fascination, and using it legitimately as part of their essential story and it's themes and point. Can't say I've seen it, and if I did, I'd still reserve the right to hate the finished piece for being depressing. |
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Post by Fang of the Dead on May 31, 2011 21:03:58 GMT -5
I've seen villains defined by lust who were effective villains. Take Disney's version of Judge Claude Frollo. He lusts after Esmerelda, but his restraint and guilt over lust makes him a more powerful villain. Is he sympathetic? Hell no. The guy's a Complete Monster, but he has standards. That's what Complete Monsters should be, especially if they're Big Bads or supposed "Well-Intentioned" Extremists. In all honesty, there are better ways to do a Kick the Dog moment, like in Mulan, when Shan Yu orderes one of the two messengers his army comes across to be shot. After all, "how many men does it take to deliver a message?" "One."
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Post by Ikkin on Jun 1, 2011 20:33:07 GMT -5
Now, I'm sure some writers are capable of handling this subject matter respectfully and delicately, making it clear that it is a horrific crime against other human beings without falling into Bile Fascination, and using it legitimately as part of their essential story and it's themes and point. Can't say I've seen it, and if I did, I'd still reserve the right to hate the finished piece for being depressing. One more thing to take into account here is that it's way too easy for something like this to run into the Truffaut Was Right problem and make a scene that's supposed to be horrifying and disturbing end up turning people on, which is really not what anyone wants. Avoiding that would probably require a different perspective that focuses more on the character's internal state than actually portraying the physical actions... and even then, it'd still be awful and depressing. =/ |
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Post by Sock on Jun 12, 2011 11:38:22 GMT -5
What bothers me about these scenes is the repercussions are almost never addressed for the victim, and a lot of times it only exists as a Kick the Dog moment. Where's the woman's opinion/thoughts on it? Rape seems to be something a lot of writers throw out there for shock value, without thinking of the repercussions.
I also don't like how a lot of female characters just fall into the role of "Victim" and have little else to their personality. They just exist as a faceless person, a victim and nothing more. I think this is harmful, and sort of has to do with the detach a lot of people have to rape. Rape is something that happens to someone else - not to them, or to people they love, or even to people they can relate to.
Another thing is a lot of times these scenes tend to be highly sexualised, which is cringe-worthy. :/
That being said, though, I think rape can be used for effect in fiction and have it be both poignant and fit the plotline, and establish a decent villain as well.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2011 11:42:41 GMT -5
The only thing close to a rape scene I saw was an attempted one in Buffy the Vampire Slayer, but she got away. And I could understand then why she didn't trust Spike/ There was also a show I watched where the girl detective was trying to catch a rapist, and there was a lot of talk but you never saw the rapes. Honestly, I don't think I could handle watching an actual scene where it happened. It's a crime I sincerely wish didn't occur in real life, and it sickens me that people would put these scenes up for fanservice purposes. No one should take joy in any sort of portrayed crime... I didn't really post until now because this is actually NOT my favorite subject. It just makes me sick thinking about it. |
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Post by PFA on Jun 12, 2011 13:48:01 GMT -5
Personally, as a writer, I'm mostly of the opinion that if it doesn't need to be shown, don't show it. This would go with rape, blood, gore, basically anything that would make people squeamish. I'd rather have a wider audience than an audience of a select few.  As for fictional rape in and of itself... yeah, it's pretty irksome. >_> I mean if you really want to depict a character that way, it's one thing to imply that they rape people or even have raped a specific person. (Though you'd have to handle it very carefully, for reasons others have mentioned.) Going so far as to show the actual scene, particularly if it's for fanservice as mentioned, is just plain crude and tasteless IMO. |
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Post by Naga on Jun 12, 2011 21:40:21 GMT -5
This being shown is distasteful at best. To be suggested or hinted at is fine (once again, to a point) but to actually show/thoroughly-describe the scene is unnecessary. Here is a quick tally...
In reality - NO
In stories (described) - NO
In anime/manga (shown) - NO
In stories (implied) - Possible, keep it minimal
In anime/manga (implied) - Possible, keep it minimal
And I could go on, but the list would obviously continue to lean towards the 'NO' side.
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Post by Fraze on Jun 13, 2011 16:31:50 GMT -5
Yes, I loathe such scenes. I feel they are unnecessarily gross and depressing, and they often ruin a piece of media for me - even if the scene and/or story ends happily, that one dark spot is enough to make me wish I'd never watched/read the piece. (And no, I don't really consider myself squeamish.) Often, I see it used solely as a Kick the Dog moment, as shorthand for "Hey, audience! YOU want this person to die!" Often, it's just a cheap, visceral way to get the readers hating the right person, when - for all the effect it usually has on the plot - you could have done the same thing more subtly by giving them a mustache to twirl and a throne made of human skulls. On the other side of the coin, it's also quite a Headdesk moment when the writer tosses it at a character solely to make her more sympathetic - gratuitous trauma, in other words, often done as a replacement for actual characterization skills. Now, I'm sure some writers are capable of handling this subject matter respectfully and delicately, making it clear that it is a horrific crime against other human beings without falling into Bile Fascination, and using it legitimately as part of their essential story and it's themes and point. Can't say I've seen it, and if I did, I'd still reserve the right to hate the finished piece for being depressing. This is extremely belated, but I feel like playing Devil's Advocate here. You think a throne of skulls is less horrifying than a rape scene? The implication with a throne of skulls is that the person sitting on it directly or indirectly killed all of those people. I'm not going to cheapen the trauma of rape or the emotional impact it has in fiction; however, I think that murdering 100 people, chopping off their heads, and disgracing their memories by sitting on them is far, far worse than a single instance of rape. Which, since we're dropping tropes left and right here, brings up Rape is Special Kind of Evil. We've seen bloody mass murderers in fiction who repented and gained redemption. But penitent rapists? They probably show up in crime dramas once in a blue moon, but I don't remember seeing any. |
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Post by Breakingchains on Jun 13, 2011 17:21:30 GMT -5
Hm, I may have been unclear here. What I meant wasn't that the throne of skulls was technically a lesser evil, but that the throne of skulls would still give the reader the "This guy is evil!" message in a more subtle way (This was intended to be sarcastic, as a throne of skulls was the least-subtle, cheesiest "evil lair" type prop I could think of.)
But either way; in real life situations, of course you're correct. But in terms of fiction and it's construction, there's this one quirk of audience reactions: indirect, implied violence - even of a huge scale - has very little emotional impact on most viewers. But visible, onscreen harm to someone we know has the potential to be utterly sickening. If you're the one doing the writing, it's a fair bet that the viewers are gonna hate the rapist more than they hate the cackling throne-of-skulls guy. If you pressed them, they'd probably admit that the cackling throne-of-skulls guy is more evil, but that wouldn't change the emotional reaction.
(But hey, for all the viewer knows, he got the skulls from cadavers or archaeological digs and is just trying to be scary. Or they're plastic. :B)
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Post by Yoyti on Jun 13, 2011 17:37:19 GMT -5
I find rape to be fine as long as it is essential to the story. I don't like excessive murder or rape for no apparent reason. Take To Kill A Mockingbird. The rape there was part of the story. I was fine with it. Same with Sweeney Todd. Also note that there was an almost rape scene in West Side Story. I think that, as long as it is important to the story, I'm fine with it. But don't just randomly include a rape scene for no reason.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2011 20:23:53 GMT -5
Yes, I loathe such scenes. I feel they are unnecessarily gross and depressing, and they often ruin a piece of media for me - even if the scene and/or story ends happily, that one dark spot is enough to make me wish I'd never watched/read the piece. (And no, I don't really consider myself squeamish.) Often, I see it used solely as a Kick the Dog moment, as shorthand for "Hey, audience! YOU want this person to die!" Often, it's just a cheap, visceral way to get the readers hating the right person, when - for all the effect it usually has on the plot - you could have done the same thing more subtly by giving them a mustache to twirl and a throne made of human skulls. On the other side of the coin, it's also quite a Headdesk moment when the writer tosses it at a character solely to make her more sympathetic - gratuitous trauma, in other words, often done as a replacement for actual characterization skills. Now, I'm sure some writers are capable of handling this subject matter respectfully and delicately, making it clear that it is a horrific crime against other human beings without falling into Bile Fascination, and using it legitimately as part of their essential story and it's themes and point. Can't say I've seen it, and if I did, I'd still reserve the right to hate the finished piece for being depressing. This is extremely belated, but I feel like playing Devil's Advocate here. You think a throne of skulls is less horrifying than a rape scene? The implication with a throne of skulls is that the person sitting on it directly or indirectly killed all of those people. I'm not going to cheapen the trauma of rape or the emotional impact it has in fiction; however, I think that murdering 100 people, chopping off their heads, and disgracing their memories by sitting on them is far, far worse than a single instance of rape. Which, since we're dropping tropes left and right here, brings up Rape is Special Kind of Evil. We've seen bloody mass murderers in fiction who repented and gained redemption. But penitent rapists? They probably show up in crime dramas once in a blue moon, but I don't remember seeing any. The problem I have with it is the sick nature of the crime and the many things it could do to harm a person. Not to mention that some victims would be ashamed of themselves if they had certain moral and/or religious values that say you shouldn't do such things unless something or other. Murder and physical torture, as evil as they are (and I hate them and sincerely wish they didn't happen, don't get me wrong), is not as bad for me in fiction because victims have no reason to feel ashamed. They simply view it as another, evil person's actions against them. But rape, for me, seems like a way someone could be forced to violate their personal morals, which is pretty horrible. It makes the character doing it seem much more evil and not likable in the slightest. Now my OC Katriana is no doubt a complete monster, but the nice thing is that you can still have fun writing her because though she's evil, she's in no way like that. |
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Post by Crystal on Jun 13, 2011 21:13:16 GMT -5
Yes, I loathe such scenes. I feel they are unnecessarily gross and depressing, and they often ruin a piece of media for me - even if the scene and/or story ends happily, that one dark spot is enough to make me wish I'd never watched/read the piece. (And no, I don't really consider myself squeamish.) Often, I see it used solely as a Kick the Dog moment, as shorthand for "Hey, audience! YOU want this person to die!" Often, it's just a cheap, visceral way to get the readers hating the right person, when - for all the effect it usually has on the plot - you could have done the same thing more subtly by giving them a mustache to twirl and a throne made of human skulls. On the other side of the coin, it's also quite a Headdesk moment when the writer tosses it at a character solely to make her more sympathetic - gratuitous trauma, in other words, often done as a replacement for actual characterization skills. Now, I'm sure some writers are capable of handling this subject matter respectfully and delicately, making it clear that it is a horrific crime against other human beings without falling into Bile Fascination, and using it legitimately as part of their essential story and it's themes and point. Can't say I've seen it, and if I did, I'd still reserve the right to hate the finished piece for being depressing. This is extremely belated, but I feel like playing Devil's Advocate here. You think a throne of skulls is less horrifying than a rape scene? The implication with a throne of skulls is that the person sitting on it directly or indirectly killed all of those people. I'm not going to cheapen the trauma of rape or the emotional impact it has in fiction; however, I think that murdering 100 people, chopping off their heads, and disgracing their memories by sitting on them is far, far worse than a single instance of rape. Which, since we're dropping tropes left and right here, brings up Rape is Special Kind of Evil. We've seen bloody mass murderers in fiction who repented and gained redemption. But penitent rapists? They probably show up in crime dramas once in a blue moon, but I don't remember seeing any. I'd also like to bring up the interesting point that murder is actually something we kind of gloss over in fiction; especially science fiction and fantasy. You know, the random bandits in the forest, the innocent villagers, the random red-shirted soldiers. Both good guys and bad guys kill people - and we don't care! Not to mention the good guy also often destroys property (and indirectly injures people), etc, etc. So yes. Rape is a special kind of evil. (As far as rape scenes go, I find them a little tasteless, but I've also seen it done well and treated with respect.) |
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Post by Komori on Jun 13, 2011 22:08:45 GMT -5
Well, the way I see it, rape is a lengthy physical torture. Showing on-screen or on-page depictions of it makes me just as squeamish as the prisoner of war who gets non-genital parts of his body mutilated. They're both lengthy and very psychologically intense. And yeah, I find those a lot worse than the guy who gets shot or decapitated, mostly because it's a lot less prolonged a trauma. Which is why I'd much rather see a throne of skulls than, say, a Saw movie. :/
Also, rape seems a lot more evil than murder because it's much easier to put yourself in the victim's shoes in one case than the other. I think people might have a harder time imagining themselves murdered, simply because no one really relays their real life "I was murdered" experience, whereas rape victims are sadly more plentiful (that is, there aren't any murder victims needing to go to a murdered support group. That sort of thing).
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Post by Yoyti on Jun 13, 2011 22:32:48 GMT -5
Also, rape seems a lot more evil than murder because it's much easier to put yourself in the victim's shoes in one case than the other. I think people might have a harder time imagining themselves murdered, simply because no one really relays their real life "I was murdered" experience, whereas rape victims are sadly more plentiful (that is, there aren't any murder victims needing to go to a murdered support group. That sort of thing). I'm sorry. I literally just laughed at the "murdered support group." ;D I don't know why. I just found it amusing. |
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