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Post by Lizzie on May 31, 2011 14:54:50 GMT -5
((I think this counts as a discussion/debate, but if a mod doesn't think so, it's okay to move it.))
So, for part of my English project, we have to write an essay, with a bunch of people's opinions and stuff.
Now, we were allowed to choose a topic. I chose the question 'Should Indians be allowed to be used as sports mascots?'
Now, after reading some articles on it, I thought it would be perfect for here.
So, it turns out that Native Americans aren't very happy about being mascots. According to a few references, it confuses their kids, shames them, and they feel that instead of honoring them, like something said they were, that they are being made fun of (think that Cleveland mascot guy, and the fact that they make fun of all their customs and stuff).
So... should Native Americans be used as mascots? Keep in mind that they're offended (and according to quite a few things, it's racism.) , but by changing the mascots, people would lose a lot of money.
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Post by Cow-winkle on May 31, 2011 15:01:21 GMT -5
So... should Native Americans be used as mascots? Keep in mind that they're offended (and according to quite a few things, it's racism.) , but by changing the mascots, people would lose a lot of money. would be losing money? |
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2011 15:09:55 GMT -5
I don't think so. I think Native Americans being used as mascots is just too risky, even if there is no racism intended. There are people who make fun of all kinds of mascots, and the NA ones are no exception. To me, it's basically the same thing as saying the whole people group has no purpose aside form advocating a sports team. That's pretty horrible. It's the same thing as using any sort of group as a mascot, be it racial, religious, or just a family name. No one wants to be ridiculed like that. I'm surprised this is still going on.
On the subject of freedom of speech, I believe there is a limit if people get hurt, and that's exactly what's happening here.
Also, love and tolerance around the world >>>>>> money. I would give up every penny I had if I had a choice between money and, say, the life of my younger cousins who I love very much. Money's no excuse.
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Post by Ian Wolf-Park on May 31, 2011 15:20:00 GMT -5
The main problem with changing the names/mascots is the fact that for some teams (like the Chicago Blackhawks) is steeped with a lot of history because they were created a lot earlier in time, so there would probably be a backlash into changing the names/mascot into something that's more appropriate. Native Americans aside, there probably isn't a lot of people who would understand what the name meant unless they were history buffs or Googled it.
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Post by Avery on May 31, 2011 15:28:24 GMT -5
I think it's possible to be too politically correct. Certainly we shouldn't go around, in modern times, propagating racism and creating new teams with Native American mascots or names. However, at the same time, I think it's over-reactionary to scrub away all the existing mascots-- or heck, with the Cleveland Indians, the entire team name. In modern society, is it viewed as tacky or offensive? Maybe. But at the same time, is it truly harming someone? Would somebody go to a Cleveland Indians ball game, watch the mascot, and suddenly decide, hey, I'm going to be racist against Native Americans! Probably not. Maybe I sound backwards or crass, but I think everything nowadays must fit into this tidy, PC bubble, and sometimes it's just a little too much. It's a mascot or a name, nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't mean anything. I doubt anyone views it as more than "Hey, guy in a suit dancing. Yay!"
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Post by Draco on May 31, 2011 16:10:50 GMT -5
I don't see a huge problem, it's just a costume. I can see them stopping future teams and stuff from using a Native American as a mascot, but old ones shouldn't be effected.
The problem with a team changing now, would be that they loose whatever history they gained with that team. And they do loose money with the change. Team colors (may change), merchandising, uniforms, the stadiums they play in (decorations, not the building), advertisements, the cost of a new mascot, etc. would all need to be new. That costs.
I know a number of Native Americans. And I know they don't really care...
I think some people are getting a little to crazy over making things racially correct. For example how Warner Bros. tried to get rid of several of their Loony Toons characters. Speedy Gonzales and Pepe Le Pew are two examples. They were going to just get rid of two characters many people know and love. And for a while, all their new stuff (shows and merch) didn't include these two characters. It was only recently they have started to appear again.
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Post by Sq on May 31, 2011 16:20:46 GMT -5
The modern stereotype of Native Americans is really depressing. If I were of Native American heritage I think that, after a history of being killed, "humanized", and driven out of North America by a bunch of people who then claimed the land as their own, I might be pretty angry if, a couple hundred years later, these same people adopted a silly caricature-esque representation of my people and attached it to a sports team for entertainment.
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Post by Lizzie on May 31, 2011 16:25:04 GMT -5
So... should Native Americans be used as mascots? Keep in mind that they're offended (and according to quite a few things, it's racism.) , but by changing the mascots, people would lose a lot of money. would be losing money? Uh, according to these papers here, they could lose the people who buy season tickets, or the people who sell merchandise, because they'll have a lot of now-outdated stuff. |
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2011 16:51:31 GMT -5
The modern stereotype of Native Americans is really depressing. If I were of Native American heritage I think that, after a history of being killed, "humanized", and driven out of North America by a bunch of people who then claimed the land as their own, I might be pretty angry if, a couple hundred years later, these same people adopted a silly caricature-esque representation of my people and attached it to a sports team for entertainment. My thoughts exactly. Also, to people who say that people don't really care, what if whatever your race was was abused in that way? I can just now see an image of people laughing at the NA mascots and I want to cry. After that, I see someone dressing up like me or someone in my family and making fun of them. "Hey everyone, I'm a little white girl and I'm better than everyone else!" It disgusts me, because I don't think that way and I never will. Nor do my family members. So they do care. They may not show it, but they care alright. They're probably keeping it hush-hush so they won't upset people. |
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Post by Draco on May 31, 2011 17:11:59 GMT -5
The modern stereotype of Native Americans is really depressing. If I were of Native American heritage I think that, after a history of being killed, "humanized", and driven out of North America by a bunch of people who then claimed the land as their own, I might be pretty angry if, a couple hundred years later, these same people adopted a silly caricature-esque representation of my people and attached it to a sports team for entertainment. My thoughts exactly. Also, to people who say that people don't really care, what if whatever your race was was abused in that way? I can just now see an image of people laughing at the NA mascots and I want to cry. After that, I see someone dressing up like me or someone in my family and making fun of them. "Hey everyone, I'm a little white girl and I'm better than everyone else!" It disgusts me, because I don't think that way and I never will. Nor do my family members. So they do care. They may not show it, but they care alright. They're probably keeping it hush-hush so they won't upset people. Learn to laugh and make jokes. I can think of tons of jokes about races, stereotype or not. That includes my own. Heck my parents and their friends joked that when I was born I was a Car Thief who Couldn't Drive. (Mexican and Japanese). The way people are today, they just need to learn to take a joke. I have a cousin who is 100% Native American. His, and his families favorite baseball team? Cleveland Indians. Because of the mascot and name. |
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Post by Jo on May 31, 2011 17:24:41 GMT -5
My thoughts exactly. Also, to people who say that people don't really care, what if whatever your race was was abused in that way? I can just now see an image of people laughing at the NA mascots and I want to cry. After that, I see someone dressing up like me or someone in my family and making fun of them. "Hey everyone, I'm a little white girl and I'm better than everyone else!" It disgusts me, because I don't think that way and I never will. Nor do my family members. So they do care. They may not show it, but they care alright. They're probably keeping it hush-hush so they won't upset people. Learn to laugh and make jokes. I can think of tons of jokes about races, stereotype or not. That includes my own. Heck my parents and their friends joked that when I was born I was a Car Thief who Couldn't Drive. (Mexican and Japanese). The way people are today, they just need to learn to take a joke. I have a cousin who is 100% Native American. His, and his families favorite baseball team? Cleveland Indians. Because of the mascot and name. Like most things, I imagine that there are Native Americans who get offended by this, and those who don't. I'm Jewish, and I think a lot of jokes about Jews are hilarious, probably because I'm Jewish XD But I imagine that there are Jews who would be offended by those jokes- in my experience though, they're in the minority. Personally, I think a lot of this is about intent, and I think we need to separate people's intentions when whatever is being called racist was invented and people's attitudes now. For example, the nursery rhyme "Baa Baa Black Sheep" is now being changed in many schools to "Baa Baa Rainbow Sheep", because the song originally had racist intentions or something. However, no parent singing this song to their kid is trying to teach them racist attitudes XD It's just a part of culture. And it's a similar case here. Even though these types of teams might have originally been mostly to mock Native Americans, I doubt anyone is using those mascots to do that now. Plus, scrapping the sports mascots would lead to a lot more controversy, and probably a lot more racism ("I hate Native Americans, they're trying to tell us what to do with our sports team!") than leaving it as it is |
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Post by Breakingchains on May 31, 2011 17:32:58 GMT -5
Yeah, not everyone does care. There are plenty of people of all races who can laugh off stereotypes like the silly, ignorant things they are.
The major question for me is this: how much threat, really, does a sports mascot pose to your pride or your identity? It doesn't affect what people think of you. Nobody looks at the Cleveland Indians mascot and thinks, "All Indians have bright red skin and wear headdresses and look, uh, vaguely shifty!" It doesn't affect what you can achieve, or any rights you may otherwise have. So I'm not sure why it's a problem. It's just a silly-looking thing that has no affect on your day-to-day life, that you can just look at and roll your eyes at and move on - unlike the real, hateful, widespread racism that Native Americans have faced in the past.
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Post by Cow-winkle on May 31, 2011 17:40:32 GMT -5
My top priority is going to be freedom of speech, and when it comes to freedom of speech, I'd rather defend it vigourously for messages I hate than not defend it at all. So, legally, I would draw the line at outright banning any mascot, as offended as I might be. However, I can't say I blame people for being offended by such mascots. It seems like one of those things where it's easy for people to think it's okay because it's commonplace--or rather, where people don't think about whether it's okay or not because it's so commonplace. It's certainly not something I'd want to actively support. The problem with a team changing now, would be that they loose whatever history they gained with that team. And they do loose money with the change. Team colors (may change), merchandising, uniforms, the stadiums they play in (decorations, not the building), advertisements, the cost of a new mascot, etc. would all need to be new. That costs. That sounds like happens whenever a team changes its logo or mascot--offensive or not--which they do every so often anyway. And when they do, I don't think there's any harm in aiming to become less offensive, rather than more. I think some people are getting a little to crazy over making things racially correct. For example how Warner Bros. tried to get rid of several of their Loony Toons characters. Speedy Gonzales and Pepe Le Pew are two examples. They were going to just get rid of two characters many people know and love. And for a while, all their new stuff (shows and merch) didn't include these two characters. It was only recently they have started to appear again. Speedy Gonzales and Pepe le Pew are far from being the most egregious examples of stereotypes in the history of Looney Toons. If you're looking for racism in Looney Toons, I'd look at Jungle Jitters or some of the World War II cartoons. It's a mascot or a name, nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't mean anything. I doubt anyone views it as more than "Hey, guy in a suit dancing. Yay!" It would be easy to turn that argument around and say that, if a mascot is just a meaningless character which dances around, then what's the harm having one that isn't an ethnic stereotype? --- Of course, I've been working under the assumption that there are people offended by such mascots, and if (and it's a pretty big "if") no one's offended, then I don't think there's any problem. I think a lot of the time, people say that something is offensive, not because they're offended, but because they think other people will be offended, even if these "other people" don't actually exist. I don't have a good sense of whether or not this is the case with these mascots--I will say that, when I see one, I just sort of roll my eyes and move on, like Breakingchains mentioned, but that doesn't mean I actively support them. |
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Post by Komori on May 31, 2011 18:26:26 GMT -5
I'm surprised no one's brought up Notre Dame's mascot, the Fighting Irish. There's an example of a mascot based on race, and hey, it's even a white one. I don't hear anyone getting that upset over Notre Dame, but we're still talking about a race stereotype here. I think some people like to get offended just to be offended.  I blame our hyper-PC culture. We're just talking about a mascot here. Mascots do little else but adorn t-shirts and souvenirs, and dance around in big foam heads. |
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Post by Mocha on May 31, 2011 18:58:30 GMT -5
I'm surprised no one's brought up Notre Dame's mascot, the Fighting Irish. There's an example of a mascot based on race, and hey, it's even a white one. I don't hear anyone getting that upset over Notre Dame, but we're still talking about a race stereotype here. I think some people like to get offended just to be offended. I blame our hyper-PC culture. We're just talking about a mascot here. Mascots do little else but adorn t-shirts and souvenirs, and dance around in big foam heads. Yeah, I agree that it's kind of weird that we don't have any problems with the Fighting Irish. It's a double standard--it wouldn't be at all okay if a team decided "Hey, let's make the Masai tribe our mascot!" and their mascot was a white guy in an African American costume. But I don't think any racial group deserves to be made into a novelty/caricature, and to me, using Native Americans as mascots has a very condescending, we-think-your-customs-are-so-cute-we're-going-to-exaggerate-and-simplify-them-for-entertainment feeling. |
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I blame our hyper-PC culture. We're just talking about a mascot here. Mascots do little else but adorn t-shirts and souvenirs, and dance around in big foam heads.
