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Post by Draco on Aug 17, 2010 15:46:16 GMT -5
Aaand Rider's AI is now fully functional. ^_^ She can follow the player, swim, jump, and use a basic sword combo whenever Ikkin attacks. All I need to do is make her take damage from monster attacks and give her better pathfinding skillz. The latter might have to wait a while. I'm going to stick with the tight, Ice Climbers-esque AI to keep things simple. If you're clever, and once you have a feel for how your ally functions, you can pull off some nice double-teaming to maximize your damage against monsters. For example, I find that using Rising Slash while having Rider stay at ground level and hack away while Ikkin is airborne to be a pretty effective move. She only does a small amount of damage in Alpha 4, but it's still enough to make her useful. Ice Climber style is a good idea XD Those characters were interesting to play with, and if you were good with them, deadly.
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Post by Omni on Aug 17, 2010 15:56:01 GMT -5
Suddenly, I'm reminded of the ally system in Zelda: Four Swords. Default: Allies follow. They do nothing else. Formations: Horizontal line, vertical line, 2 x 2 box, diamond-shape. Allies will do the same thing as you. If one falls off a cliff, everyone does. At times, you would also control one copy of Link at a time. The others would become inactive, allowing you to pick them up and throw them without hurting them (even if you throw them off a bottomless pit). You could even pick one up, throw them across a gap, switch to the one you threw, then call everyone together and continue, having safely crossed the gap. Naturally, if you had a second player, the formations would be more limited... but it is still fun to pick up the other player so they can't do anything. X3 It also made it so different kinds of weapons could be used at the same time, though. I don't expect you to do something too close to that, of course. Though when I picture what you described (Ice Climbers-style)... Well, I picture myself hacking away at an enemy in front of me while Rider's following behind me, slashing in front of her, which would be me, which I assume she couldn't harm, meaning she would effectively do nothing most of the time. (If she could harm me, that would mean she'd largely be detrimental. ) Maybe it's just because I haven't had a lot of practice with follow-me allies (I had a hard time using the Ice Climbers in SSB), but personally I think I'd like to control her a little more than just having her... be my shadow wherever I go. Again I'm thinking of formations. It could have a lot of strategic use, too. Like if she stood by your side, she could help you hack away at the monsters in front of you ('partner'). She could also stand behind you, back-to-back, and help slash at enemies behind you, probably increasing the effectiveness of spin-attack ('back-guard?'). Or, she could even stand in front of you, slashing at enemies to keep them from getting to you while taking the damage ('meat-shield' X3) while you throw fireballs to try to keep them at a distance. ... Maybe to keep it from being too much like Four Swords or whatnot, you could even have it so that a certain ally will take on one specific formation. For example... Rider could prefer standing back-to-back, each person guarding each-other. Kat could prefer to stand by your side as you both blast at the enemies in front of you. And someone with armor and/or a lot of health (dunno who) could prefer guarding you, maybe even while using a guard-spell. If you want a different formation, you have to change allies. If you did this, you could probably have a button set to toggle whether or not you were in formation. When un-toggled, you'd go back to Ice Climbers-style. Or maybe you'd have to hold the button down... but I think my finger would hurt after awhile if you did that. I'm also not saying they'd be in the position constantly. For example, if you were back-to-back, and you suddenly had Ikkin change direction, you could potentially have the ally rush to get behind you as well. The 'guard' would probably have the most trouble with this, and might need to know how to dash. ...Just my ideas. What do you think? I also wouldn't mind a dungeon-portion or something where the first time you had to go through, the characters have to split up to help each-other progress, and you switch between the two characters at points. I know it's done a lot in some games, but I really enjoy it. ...Also, what kind of capabilities does MMF have with doing things over a network? I'm just thinking that if you had the option to have the other player control the ally on another computer, they wouldn't need to use another input device, like a joystick, to avoid control conflicts. It wouldn't have to be the only way to do it, though. I still think controlling Rider or whonot with a Playstation controller might be fun. Oh yeah, PFA's also wondering what Rider would do if you grabbed onto a zipline. Would she hold onto your feet? Cling to your back? Suddenly appear when you enter another room? Stay behind until you came to where she was again?
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Post by Strife on Aug 17, 2010 16:03:34 GMT -5
I remember Four Swords. x3 That was a pretty sweet system. Not something I'm keen on programming, unfortunately.
As for your ideas, having different allies sport different behaviors sounds like a neat way to differentiate them. ^_^ Rider would supplement the player's damage by attacking in front of them, while Zylaa would specialize in guarding the player's back. Hunty would probably fire steady streams of crossbow bolts when there are enemies in line with her. Kat would stay really close to the player and use healing/defensive magic. Tracy would... be a doofus. (Kidding, kidding, we love you Tracy. xD)
As for the ziplines in the Grotto, Rider won't follow you into underground/indoor areas unless it's an Inn. At least in Alpha 4. But in such a case, I suppose she'd latch onto Ikkin's leg.
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Post by Gelquie on Aug 18, 2010 0:24:20 GMT -5
The ally system is looking cool! ^^ Though it seems like it'd be quite a bit of work to make sure that Rider's AI isn't stupid. XD; Namely in such things like pitfalls that Ikkin could easily avoid but might have trouble with Rider, for example. *Bad memories from Oblivion, where my escort would fall into a lava pit just because I'm moving in a certain direction.*
*Shrugs.* I've never played Ice Climbers or Four Swords, so I don't know what those are like. But I've never been that good with companions in some of the games I've played that had them.
But the companion habits sound cool. ^^
Speaking of ziplines... how do the ziplines get back to the top of the rope if you were to, say, zip down in the Grotto, take a path to go back to the beginning, and re-enter the room with the ziplines? They don't seem to be the type that you can just thrust them back up once done with it. o_0
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Post by Killix on Aug 18, 2010 0:38:25 GMT -5
I was initially imagining a Donkey Kong Country type AI ally, but an Ice Climbers type AI would be a lot more fun.
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Post by Strife on Aug 18, 2010 4:18:50 GMT -5
The ally system is looking cool! ^^ Though it seems like it'd be quite a bit of work to make sure that Rider's AI isn't stupid. XD; Namely in such things like pitfalls that Ikkin could easily avoid but might have trouble with Rider, for example. *Bad memories from Oblivion, where my escort would fall into a lava pit just because I'm moving in a certain direction.* *Shrugs.* I've never played Ice Climbers or Four Swords, so I don't know what those are like. But I've never been that good with companions in some of the games I've played that had them. But the companion habits sound cool. ^^ Speaking of ziplines... how do the ziplines get back to the top of the rope if you were to, say, zip down in the Grotto, take a path to go back to the beginning, and re-enter the room with the ziplines? They don't seem to be the type that you can just thrust them back up once done with it. o_0 I'm going to make Rider lampshade it by mentioning how her AI might be a little wonky due to the headache she got after being wrapped up by the bloodweed king. xD As for the ziplines, A Wizard Did It. <.< >.> The same wizard that removes dead monsters after you leave an area, actually. I was initially imagining a Donkey Kong Country type AI ally, but an Ice Climbers type AI would be a lot more fun. Oh man, that brings back memories. xD I used to go back into DK's hut in the first level all the time and watch him facepalm at the lack of bananas.
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Post by Strife on Aug 19, 2010 19:06:39 GMT -5
You know your brain needs some sleep when you start thinking that explosive radishes make perfect sense. xD
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Post by Goron on Aug 19, 2010 19:51:16 GMT -5
You mean they don't? XDDD
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Post by Strife on Aug 20, 2010 4:44:23 GMT -5
You mean they don't? XDDD ...You know your brain needs some sleep when you forget that in the NTWF, everything makes perfect sense. xD
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Post by Strife on Aug 22, 2010 7:25:36 GMT -5
I've added a list of current testers to the first post. ^_^ Let me know if I forgot you.
If possible, I'd like to refer to people by their real names in the actual game's credits, but it's up to you guys. Let me know what you would prefer to be called and I'll add it beside your name in parenthesis. (I've already added the real names of a few people who said it was okay for Jade Phoenix.)
Aside from that, Rider's AI still lacks pathfinding, but is otherwise fully functional now. I have to modify the melee attacks of individual monster types if I want them to damage her (and other allies), so at the moment, only certain monsters on the overworld map can hurt her with melee damage. Projectiles and magic skills cause damage universally, so that's no problem. :3
At the moment, allies can take damage, but they have infinite health, and the only downside to them getting attacked is that they're knocked back for a split second and unable to help out. I'm not sure if I should stick with this, though.
What I could probably do is add Kingdom Hearts-styled health bars to allies, in which fallen comrades won't die, but will be incapacitated for a minute or so before getting back up to fight. This raises a couple of gameplay questions, though. What would happen if the ally was incapacitated, but the player decided to transition to a new map? Would the ally appear on the new map with magically regained consciousness, or would the player be unable to move to a new region until the ally has recovered? Both cases have small doses of Fridge Logic, but the latter would convince the player to keep their ally safe instead of abandoning them the moment they get knocked out.
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Post by Jina on Aug 22, 2010 16:34:17 GMT -5
If you want to avoid Fridge Logic, have them follow you onto the new map, only make the sprite invisible and have them do nothing? I'm assuming you can do that, anyway. And then have them appear at the side of the map when they regain conciousness. That way it looks to the player like they just stayed on the old map and followed you when they woke up.
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Post by Strife on Aug 22, 2010 17:20:56 GMT -5
If you want to avoid Fridge Logic, have them follow you onto the new map, only make the sprite invisible and have them do nothing? I'm assuming you can do that, anyway. And then have them appear at the side of the map when they regain conciousness. That way it looks to the player like they just stayed on the old map and followed you when they woke up. Hey, that's not a bad idea. ^_^ It would allow me to preserve the amount of time it takes before the ally can fight again. There's still the problem of when the player leaves her behind with tons of monsters still in the previous room, or if the ally fell into a lava pit or other normally-fatal trap, but at least I can address those on a case-by-case basis. xD; Or I could just be mean and have it actually kill them and result in a Nonstandard Game Over.
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Post by Killix on Aug 22, 2010 22:26:17 GMT -5
No nonstandard game overs for what will probably end up always being AI stupidity. Please I beg yoooooou.
EDIT: Oh yes, you can credit me with my real name. "April J. Summers" XD
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Post by Bacon on Aug 23, 2010 0:16:57 GMT -5
There's also the potential glitch of leaving one area when your ally is "dead", then going back to the first area before they revive and them being invisible and randomly coming onscreen from the second area when they do finally revive. This is just conjectural, but still something you may want to watch out for.
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Post by Draco on Aug 23, 2010 3:05:56 GMT -5
I like the invisible idea. That way they can just reappear when their "dead" time wears out. Having invincible allies in a game is fun (I'm looking at Johnson from the Halo series XD), but over all is kind of strange. Especially when you see them running through lava, spikes, flurries of attacks, etc. Giving them health is good, since it will cause you to try and take care of them a little more, but not many people like the "escort" style of companion Where now you have to be careful not to get them stuck and trapped somewhere. And you can use my name to XD
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