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Post by Yoyti on Apr 22, 2012 17:50:50 GMT -5
I'd just like to say that a big part of classic vampirism is rooted in Christianity. Just look at some of the methods for getting rid of them. Crucifixes. Holy water. Stakes. And even so, this is the designated religion thread. Not the Christian thread. 33% of the world may be Christian (and also apparently most of this forum with the exception of me and Saeryena) but there are hundreds of religions out there, and millions that aren't even practiced anymore. I can all but guarantee that future scholars will laugh at the silly beliefs of today. That they will have beliefs of their own which evolved from the beliefs of today, much like how Judaism evolved from the earlier religions which we scoff at. Your religion isn't the only one at stake here. We don't believe in witches here, now do we? But do we abhor the discussion of witches in this thread? Stop me if I'm wrong here, but I don't think we do. Witches hold a big part in many religions, including at points, Christianity. I don't mean to offend anyone here, but I came with a simple question, "what happens to animals after death." And, as any good discussion should, it answered some questions and raised some more. My question has raised to this: What determines the presence of a soul? I came here hoping to learn about more religions than just Christianity. I was hoping to learn stuff about Islam, Hinduism and various other assorted religions. What did I get? Christianity, Christianity, Christianity (with some of Saeryena's beliefs thrown in for good measure). So let's forget about vampires and zombies if you wish, and just answer me this one question. What determines the presence of a soul? Some people don't think atheists have souls. Some people think that anyone who believes differently than they do has no soul. Some don't think women have souls. Some say that some things have bigger souls than others. Finally, I'm fed to the teeth with heated discussion. I'm going to up the ante. I want to know exactly what you think of me, of atheism, and of any third topic that comes to your mind. Tell me I'm going to burn in hell forever, I don't care. I came here to learn things about people. I want honest opinions. Raw opinions. I won't argue with you. I am an agnostic athiest. I do not believe in a deity, but I do not claim to know for certain that one does not exist.And I probably did not think this through enough! ;DEDIT: Hold on. Did I just open up a discussion about discussion?  I really didn't think this through... |
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Post by M is for Morphine on Apr 22, 2012 18:08:25 GMT -5
This is very antagonistic. No one has ever even come close to telling someone to burn in hell forever in this thread. They are generally nice people, even when you're arguing opposite them. I've taken up the contrary viewpoint on quite a few occasions. People have responded to you as nicely as they could, considering some of your arguments have sorta been in bad faith. Anyway, you're going to only get viewpoints from religions that people actually practice here, and that's primarily Christianity with a pretty good representation of Jews, and other agnostics/atheists (I am an agnostic). I remember someone mentioning they were a Muslim, but I don't recall having seen them in this thread.
I mean, I guess I could try and argue from the view of, say, bokononism, but I'm not a Hindu or a Sikh or a Muslim, so it would be pretty disrespectful of me to assume I know what they believe to the extent of being able to argue it. I'd give a very unfair impression.
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Post by Stal on Apr 22, 2012 18:11:48 GMT -5
Stop with the "I'm being persecuted because of my questions" bit, Yoyti. You yourself said such questions were being ridiculous, don't try to make it sound like they were lines of sincere inquiry. They weren't and had nothing to do with your other questions--they hardly even related to them.
You've been waiting to make the point that all beliefs are equally silly for a long time now, though you've stated your position on that before. Next time, be intellectually honest and get to it instead of dancing around waiting for someone to call the questions silly for you to make your point (which I went ahead and did, despite your transparent lobbying efforts, just to get this thread back on track). It doesn't make you look intellectual, nor does it make the point better.
And no one here does think this thread is only about Christianity or we're somehow superior. So your bone to pick there is misplaced and mostly coming from your personal distaste for them (which you displayed quite a bit of during your last rounds of debating). You're only getting Christian answers because no one else is answering. And even then you started making the questions more Christian centric. So no more straw men, either.
You may recall the staff has already had to deal with you on this thread before for trolling and other attitude problems. We're not going to revisit that again, okay? If you're going to have legitimate discussions, stick to having legit discussions and being honest about them, okay? And leave the grudges and attitude out of it.
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Post by Stal on Apr 22, 2012 18:13:12 GMT -5
Teow, just a note, Fortune (the creator of the thread) is a strict Sunni Muslim. He doesn't pop in much anymore, but he's a cool guy I still see on FB often.
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Post by Jo on Apr 22, 2012 18:13:22 GMT -5
Whoah Yoyti. I think you need to calm down a bit, because your post is very jumbled and emotionally driven. I can see that you would like to see input from other religions on this thread, and I think quite a few people would like that too, but the problem is that there is not really a wide variety of religions on the ntwf. The majority are Christians, so it's natural that the discussion will centre around Christianity. If you want to learn about different faiths then your best bet is to do research and find websites for those faiths.
I don't understand why you're asking for people honest opinions of atheism and yourself, but this is not the board for that. This is the discussion and debate board, meant for people to have discussions which rely on logical arguments, not opinions without reason. If you want to have a 'raw opinion' discussion, then you should take that to PM.
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Post by M is for Morphine on Apr 22, 2012 18:23:21 GMT -5
Teow, just a note, Fortune (the creator of the thread) is a strict Sunni Muslim. He doesn't pop in much anymore, but he's a cool guy I still see on FB often. Ah, thanks! It's been a very long time since I visited the front end of the thread. |
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Post by Yoyti on Apr 22, 2012 18:27:51 GMT -5
This is very antagonistic. No one has ever even come close to telling someone to burn in hell forever in this thread. They are generally nice people, even when you're arguing opposite them. I've taken up the contrary viewpoint on quite a few occasions. People have responded to you as nicely as they could, considering some of your arguments have sorta been in bad faith. Anyway, you're going to only get viewpoints from religions that people actually practice here, and that's primarily Christianity with a pretty good representation of Jews, and other agnostics/atheists (I am an agnostic). I remember someone mentioning they were a Muslim, but I don't recall having seen them in this thread. I'm not accusing anyone of being discriminatory. I simply want honest opinions. I get the feeling people are holding back, and I don't really like that. I'm not saying anyone should start using strong language or making personal attacks, but if all atheists are going to hell, than so am I, and I don't want anyone to try to sugarcoat it. The rest of my post was basically that I'm tired of having to work in a narrow space for what should be a very wide area. I don't think any religion should be a taboo subject, so I was expressing disappointment in that I'm not really learning anything new. I brought up vampires in hopes of finding out where the line was drawn between "soul" and "no soul," and, unfortunately, that's basically where the discussion fell apart. |
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Post by M is for Morphine on Apr 22, 2012 18:33:56 GMT -5
I'm not accusing anyone of being discriminatory. I simply want honest opinions. I get the feeling people are holding back, and I don't really like that. I'm not saying anyone should start using strong language or making personal attacks, but if all atheists are going to hell, than so am I, and I don't want anyone to try to sugarcoat it. The rest of my post was basically that I'm tired of having to work in a narrow space for what should be a very wide area. I don't think any religion should be a taboo subject, so I was expressing disappointment in that I'm not really learning anything new. I brought up vampires in hopes of finding out where the line was drawn between "soul" and "no soul," and, unfortunately, that's basically where the discussion fell apart. From the standard Christian viewpoint, I am going to hell as well. That doesn't mean it's productive or helpful to tell me so. Some of the Christians here practice something pretty close to Judaism and might not believe in a hell at all, at least not as we would know it. Anyway, if you're tired of a narrow space, broaden it yourself. Ask about other religions. Get specific if you want something specific. |
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Post by Yoyti on Apr 22, 2012 18:44:30 GMT -5
The problem with widening the space myself is that, at least on this subject, that would require me asking people to tell me about what other people think, and that is something that simply cannot be done, especially with a subject like religion.
Now, you raise an interesting point, where's the line drawn between religions? There are many different sects within Christianity. At what point do we know if it's still Christianity? How do we know if it's any religion at all? Maybe all religions are just different sects of the original religion.
And it may not be productive for you for someone to tell you that you're going to hell, but it's very interesting to me. I'm rather interested in what people think of me (although I stand by what Richard Feynman's father said: "What do you care what other people think?") It's good to get a second opinion once in a while. I like having things to think about.
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Post by M is for Morphine on Apr 22, 2012 18:48:52 GMT -5
The problem with widening the space myself is that, at least on this subject, that would require me asking people to tell me about what other people think, and that is something that simply cannot be done, especially with a subject like religion. Now, you raise an interesting point, where's the line drawn between religions? There are many different sects within Christianity. At what point do we know if it's still Christianity? How do we know if it's any religion at all? Maybe all religions are just different sects of the original religion. And it may not be productive for you for someone to tell you that you're going to hell, but it's very interesting to me. I'm rather interested in what people think of me (although I stand by what Richard Feynman's father said: "What do you care what other people think?") It's good to get a second opinion once in a while. I like having things to think about. Generally, it's Christianity when they believe that Christ was the son of God who died for their sins and was resurrected. Muslims believe he existed and was a great prophet, but they believe that calling him the son of God would be placing other Gods before him, and don't fit the above criteria. Some Buddhists believe he was a bodhisattva, but again, they don't fit the above. I reckon it's a religion when it has living followers that think it is one. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2012 18:49:59 GMT -5
I love that sign. And thank you teaching me that Pagans also use the ankh (I think that's what it's called)! In response to the soul question, I believe that every living being has a soul. I also believe that nonliving objects (like toys), if loved enough as though they were alive, will emanate a kind of "aura" that draws a disembodied soul to reside in them. That's why so many kids think their toys are real, because in a way they are. And if the kid stops believing the toy is alive, then its soul will leave. But if a person (like me) never stops believing in the toy's love for them and keeps them forever, the toy will have a soul until the day its owner dies (like me and my stuffed bunny). |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2012 18:55:53 GMT -5
Teow pretty much said everything I was thinking. Christians who walk around using "hell" and "fire" and "torment" as their main arguments do not go down well. With anyone. Not even with fellow Christians, because we are told to be respectful, gentle, kind and truthful.
Yoyti, you seem to think that every Christian (or at least the ones here) has something against you, like we've got this personal vendetta and we just want to see you crushed. Might I suggest that the issue doesn't lie in Christians dominating this thread, the narrow scope of argument or even us holding something back (we're not, I assure you. At least I'm not), but in your attitude towards Christians and our beliefs.
Maybe you've had some pretty bad experiences in the past, maybe Christians didn't act in ways that they should have and you suffered because of it, I really don't know enough about your situation to judge the reasoning behind it, but whatever it is, I know I have made a great effort to be considerate and respectful of you and your viewpoints despite the fact that I often felt like you were not reciprocating that courtesy. And I also know that pretty much everyone else here is also making that same effort so that the discussion doesn't turn into a flame war. Don't judge us by the standard you have seen in others. Rather, judge us by what we have done and said and on those merits alone. Otherwise you end up painting us with the wrong brush.
I've nothing personal against you. That isn't to say I don't think you're capable of doing the wrong thing, but so is everyone else, and I am the queen of things gone wrong from my own stupidity. Let's not have this deteriorate into personal squabbles, we're all adults here. ^_^
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Post by Stal on Apr 22, 2012 18:59:28 GMT -5
If you wish to learn more about religion in general, I recommend going to actual religious forums to discuss it. There's several on the Internet.
But this thread has always been about questioning people on what they do believe personally. Not getting anything new isn't something to take frustrations out on.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2012 19:05:27 GMT -5
I reckon it's a religion when it has living followers that think it is one. That's probably the best definition I've heard. Last year I had an extra space for a paper of my choice and I chose a religious studies one. It was a fascinating and enlightening experience, but at the end of four months, I'm still not able to define religion. Some people say it is a religion when it has a god or gods, but there are a lot of places where spirits rule, or ancestor worship, and I think I would class them as religion. That, and the definition of deity varies from place to place. The Greek gods, for instance, were very like humans except with added powers and immortality. They got angry, hungry, tired, had affairs, seduced humans ... xD The dictionary defines it as the belief in a "superhuman, controlling power" (paraphrased), but not all superhuman powers are said to have an active role in the world at all. I think (not sure?) that Dualism has the idea that said superhuman powers exist in the spiritual realm but have no active role in the world. It is the goal of every human to shed their mortal body and ... ascend might be the right word. All this to say that this is a confusing thing to define, I think you've probably got the best definition so far, but that there's still wiggle room, as even people within the same religion disagree on whether or not it is a religion. x3 |
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Post by Breakingchains on Apr 22, 2012 19:59:55 GMT -5
I'll sidestep the other stuff, since everything has pretty much been said about it, and answer the question about determining the presence of a soul:
The way I have heard most people use it, a soul is the immaterial "essence" of a person that lives on after death. The body is finite, the soul is eternal. So, within the Christian worldview (which is the only one I can honestly answer for), there's no variables that really "determine" the presence of a soul; either you were given one by the creator (a condition that all human beings automatically meet) or you don't have one. Some people believe animals may have souls as well, some don't, but there are no outside indicators as to whether one is there or not (aside, obviously, from death, which causes the soul to move on.)
I should probably note that some people would use "spirit" to refer to this definition, and consider a "soul" to be your earthly personality, mind and emotions--believing that the soul and spirit are two separate things. (Not entirely sure where the idea of that distinction comes from or what the logic is behind it, but I've seen it stated commonly enough that I'll throw it out there.)
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I really didn't think this through...
