Proving evolution wrong.......

[Oily]

TheEaterofWorlds said:

Am I the only person who's not scared of the thought that we are here by accident? Even if we were made without a purpose in mind (the validity of such a statement I'm not venturing to discuss) That doesn't mean being here is pointless. We can make a purpose for ourselves. I personally believe that I am here to see what I can make of myself, to become the best person that I can be. That's enough for me, I don't need to think that I was put here for a reason, the thing is that I *am* here, so now what am I going to do with it?

Similar thoughts I worked out one day that there doesn't need to be a point to anything - it just is.


I believe in what I was taught at school - we've just had Physics lessons on the Big Bang etc and it makes a lot of sense. It's mindblowing, really - almost easier to believe in a god than believe in the universe starting like this

I don't think creationism (as in strict Biblical version) makes any sense at all. I am quite happy though, to accept there is a point at which science stops. To the question - who made the first thing that was ever made - the answer could well be a divine being. But I find the idea that we were plonked down on Earth along with all the animals rather silly.

As TEOW said, evolutionism and creationism are not mutually exclusive. All of my friends are for evolution; roughly half are Christian.

[irishdragonlord]

The said:

If it were disproved, why do schools still teach evolution? And besides, who disproved it? Who told you it was disproved? It has not been 100% proven/disproven, and the liklihood is that no one will be able to completely prove/disprove it.

Frankly, I believe in evolution as a long process with specific steps that happend in a specific way. I don't like arguments that point to God because we can't explain something.

Schools teach evolution because it is the scientific excuse for a God and a way to teach about the origin of life excluding God and even if they DID disprove evolution they would teach a different theory.

My teacher said that to me last year, and I know that I DEFINITELY need to verify what she said. I don't know who, and I think it was really pointed out the chances were so radically out there it was impossible.

Also, like I said, evolution and the creation of life are two separate topics.

Now, I would like to point out that evolution has very little proof other than similar fossil fragments, and then few, hence the many 'missing links'. I believe God is the more rational answer, because, I like to go back to the VERY beginning - BEFORE the Big Bang. Fact 1: everything created has an end. Fact 2: nothing can create itself.

God fact 1: God wasn't created. God Fact 2: Not being created, he did not create himself. Yes, this is mind boggling, but quite frankly, so is the 4th and 5th dimension stuff - many believe they exist, but in our mathematical, overly-logical minds, we can't comprehend it.

Also, Sudephe, CALM DOWN. You remind me of when I first came to this forum, and let me tell you, they weren't happy memories. Anyone who remembers the... uh... "w" board... (war board *cringe*)... can back me up on this. You need to respect other's beliefs if you want respect, even if you disagree, and then discuss it. Civilly.

[Ducky ish lazy]

Fact 2: nothing can create itself.

Exactly. It's just like...when you bang two rocks together, do you get a squirrel?

Something had to have caused the Big Bang...When you hear something go BANG and you ask someone what that was and they say "Nothing" you're not going to buy that. Just like something would've had to cause the Big Bang. Things like that don't happen randomly.

Stephen Hawking has calculated that if the rate of the universe's expansion one second after the Big Bang had been smaller by even one part in a hundred thousand million million, the universe would've collapsed into a fireball. With something having to be that perfect, I don't think it could've just happened by chance.

[Smiley]

Just because I don't where absolutely everything came from doesn't mean that everything I believe in is impossible. I don't know what started the universe, and I'm content in knowing that I never will. I can live without knowing.

I do believe in evolution, however, and that it was aided by God. God set the template for evolution, and let the world evolve on its own.

As far back as my theories go is when the universe started as a single hydrogen atom. I don't know what came before then, I never will, and I don't really care. I don't think any less of someone who has a different belief, either. I love the diversity of our world and I will always honor it, even when it clashes with what I believe.

You can try all you want to disprove my ideas and beliefs, to tell me that I'm wrong and that I'm an idiot, but I don't care. I'm happy with what I believe in and that should be good enough for anyone else, frankly.

[The Angry Artist]

IDL said:

Schools teach evolution because it is the scientific excuse for a God and a way to teach about the origin of life excluding God and even if they DID disprove evolution they would teach a different theory.

Fallacy: Arguement From Ignorance. You're assuming schools believe in God and that they don't want to teach evolution. That's like saying, "There's no proof that you want to teach evolution, so obvously you don't want to."

IDL said:

Now, I would like to point out that evolution has very little proof other than similar fossil fragments, and then few, hence the many 'missing links'. I believe God is the more rational answer, because, I like to go back to the VERY beginning - BEFORE the Big Bang. Fact 1: everything created has an end. Fact 2: nothing can create itself.

You've managed to cram a couple fallacies into one paragraph. I shall address them.

IDL said:

evolution has very little proof other than similar fossil fragments, and then few, hence the many 'missing links'.

Fallacy: Argument From Ignorance. Just because proof doesn't exist doesn't prove the opposite and that there will never be proof.

IDL said:

Fact 1: everything created has an end. Fact 2: nothing can create itself.

Two fallacies: Affirmation of the Consequent and Begging the Question.

Begging the Question -- How do we know everything created has an end? The universe is, in theory, an infinite amount of space. You are assuming both that something created that space and something can end it. The Affirmation of the Consequent is a direct result of this. But back to the previous point, how can you end an infinite amount of space? If it is infinite, it cannot end. It is infinite. Not finite. No finish. Presumable the only way to put an end to an infinite amount of space is to end it with an even more infinite amount of space -- which is impossible, considering that nothing is more infinite than anything else infinite. They both have no ends, so how can one be bigger?

Also, how do we know the universe was created? Theoretically, the universe has existed for an infinite amount of time. It is not until recently (say, a few hundred billion years back) that planets may have existed, and, in some cases, organisms. Because based on the theory that the universe has existed for an infinite amount of time, all the elements have existed for an infinite amount of time because that is what the universe is made of. It is not until recently (see above) that those elements came together (see above).

Affirmation of the Consequent -- That something created the universe. Just as humans create objects, it's assumed that "someone" (a.k.a. God) created the world. After all, the Bible says we were created in God's image. And thus vice versa. Therefore religion takes on the basis that someone created everything as people do. But that is impossible (physically, unless you use a fallacy) considering that nothing is more infinite that infinity. So theoretically God doesn't exist, because God would have to be more infinite than anything infinite. And based on what was previously said, nothing infinite is more infinite than anything else infinite. Thus infinty = infinity. There is no infinity +1 > infinity. Because if infinity goes on forever, there is no +1. Infinity has no end and therefore cannot be added onto.

IDL said:

God fact 1: God wasn't created. God Fact 2: Not being created, he did not create himself.

Fallacy: another 'Begging the Question.' How do you know God wasn't created? That is like saying, "Because I'm telling the truth, everything that follows is true." Well, isn't that speical. That's begging the question!

And now that I've proved your statement to be a fallacy, it goes to say that God might have been created. But wait a minute! Nothing can create itself, as you said, and God might've been created. So what created God? Let's refer back to our Affirmation of the Conqequent. We're assuming here for the argument's sake that since God is infinite God would therefore be created by something more infinite so that God would be infinite. But I already disproved 'infinity +1,' so therefore nothing is more infinite than God who is already infinite, therefore proving that God created himself unless someone or something equally infinite created God, which would therefore prove the existence of multiple gods.

IDL said:

Yes, this is mind boggling, but quite frankly, so is the 4th and 5th dimension stuff - many believe they exist, but in our mathematical, overly-logical minds, we can't comprehend it.

And, regarding the fact that we cannot comprehend any of this stuff, we fall under the fallacy of 'Appeal to Authority' -- if we cannot comprehend it, it is not our area of expertise, so therefore yours, mine, and everyone's arguments are therefore disproved.

IDL said:

Schools teach evolution because it is the scientific excuse for a God and a way to teach about the origin of life excluding God and even if they DID disprove evolution they would teach a different theory.

Fallacy: Arguement From Ignorance. You're assuming schools believe in God and that they don't want to teach evolution. That's like saying, "There's no proof that you want to teach evolution, so obvously you don't want to."

IDL said:

My teacher said that to me last year, and I know that I DEFINITELY need to verify what she said. I don't know who, and I think it was really pointed out the chances were so radically out there it was impossible.

Also, like I said, evolution and the creation of life are two separate topics.

Now, I would like to point out that evolution has very little proof other than similar fossil fragments, and then few, hence the many 'missing links'. I believe God is the more rational answer, because, I like to go back to the VERY beginning - BEFORE the Big Bang. Fact 1: everything created has an end. Fact 2: nothing can create itself.

You've managed to cram a few fallacies into one paragraph. I shall address them.

IDL said:

evolution has very little proof other than similar fossil fragments, and then few, hence the many 'missing links'.

Fallacy: Argument From Ignorance. Just because proof doesn't exist doesn't prove the opposite and that there will never be proof.

IDL said:

Fact 1: everything created has an end. Fact 2: nothing can create itself.

Two fallacies: Affirmation of the Consequent and Begging the Question.

Begging the Question -- How do we know everything created has an end? The universe is, in theory, an infinite amount of space. You are assuming both that something created that space and something can end it. The Affirmation of the Consequent is a direct result of this. But back to the previous point, how can you end an infinite amount of space? If it is infinite, it cannot end. It is infinite. Not finite. No finish. Presumable the only way to put an end to an infinite amount of space is to end it with an even more infinite amount of space -- which is impossible, considering that nothing is more infinite than anything else infinite. They both have no ends, so how can one be bigger?

Also, how do we know the universe was created? Theoretically, the universe has existed for an infinite amount of time. It is not until recently (say, a few hundred billion years back) that planets may have existed, and, in some cases, organisms. Because based on the theory that the universe has existed for an infinite amount of time, all the elements have existed for an infinite amount of time because that is what the universe is made of. It is not until recently (see above) that those elements came together (see above).

Affirmation of the Consequent -- That something created the universe. Just as humans create objects, it's assumed that "someone" (a.k.a. God) created the world. After all, the Bible says we were created in God's image. And thus vice versa. Therefore religion takes on the basis that someone created everything as people do. But that is impossible (physically, unless you use a fallacy) considering that nothing is more infinite that infinity. So theoretically God doesn't exist, because God would have to be more infinite than anything infinite. And based on what was previously said, nothing infinite is more infinite than anything else infinite. Thus infinty = infinity. There is no infinity +1 > infinity. Because if infinity goes on forever, there is no +1. Infinity has no end and therefore cannot be added onto.

IDL said:

God fact 1: God wasn't created. God Fact 2: Not being created, he did not create himself.

Fallacy: another 'Begging the Question.' How do you know God wasn't created? That is like saying, "Because I'm telling the truth, everything that follows is true." Well, isn't that speical. That's begging the question!

Argument continued in next post...

[Bacon]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAURGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THIS IS NOT AT ALL WHAT I INTENDED, GOODBYE AND I HOPE SOMEBODY LOCKS THIS OR YOU ALL JUST LET IT DIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[The Angry Artist]

...Argument continued.

And now that I've proved your statement to be a fallacy, it goes to say that God might have been created. But wait a minute! Nothing can create itself, as you said, and God might've been created. So what created God? Let's refer back to our Affirmation of the Conqequent. We're assuming here for the argument's sake that since God is infinite God would therefore be created by something more infinite so that God would be infinite. But I already disproved 'infinity +1,' so therefore nothing is more infinite than God who is already infinite, therefore proving that God created himself unless someone or something equally infinite created God, which would therefore prove the existence of multiple gods.

IDL said:

Yes, this is mind boggling, but quite frankly, so is the 4th and 5th dimension stuff - many believe they exist, but in our mathematical, overly-logical minds, we can't comprehend it.

And, regarding the fact that we cannot comprehend any of this stuff, we fall under the fallacy of 'Appeal to Authority' -- if we cannot comprehend it, it is not our area of expertise, so therefore yours, mine, and everyone's arguments are therefore disproved.

If there are any fallacies in my logic, I would like to know. I would not like to win an argument because of a fallacy. Even if you agree with what I say, I would still like to see some fallacies in my argument...

Sorry this came in two posts. My original post contained apparantly over 10,000 characters.

[The Angry Artist]

said:

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAURGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THIS IS NOT AT ALL WHAT I INTENDED, GOODBYE AND I HOPE SOMEBODY LOCKS THIS OR YOU ALL JUST LET IT DIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The assumption that you can disprove evolution by confronting just one person is a fallacy -- Small Sample. You're taking one argument to represent all others.

[Eggz]

said:

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAURGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THIS IS NOT AT ALL WHAT I INTENDED, GOODBYE AND I HOPE SOMEBODY LOCKS THIS OR YOU ALL JUST LET IT DIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

*saw this from recent posts*

WOAH. Bacon, it's just a discussion. Nothing to get worked up about. If you wanna prove evolution wrong, and someone objects, you don't have to go screaming.... *dissapears*

[Bacon]

Eggz said:

*saw this from recent posts*

WOAH. Bacon, it's just a discussion. Nothing to get worked up about. If you wanna prove evolution wrong, and someone objects, you don't have to go screaming.... *dissapears*

IT WASN'T SUPPOSED TO BE A MULTIPERSON DISCUSSION, IT WAS MEANT TO BE A TWO PERSON DEBATE!!!!! NOW SERIOUSLY STOP ALL POSTS!!!!!

[Kiddo]

said:

IT WASN'T SUPPOSED TO BE A MULTIPERSON DISCUSSION, IT WAS MEANT TO BE A TWO PERSON DEBATE!!!!! NOW SERIOUSLY STOP ALL POSTS!!!!!

Dude. This is a forum. The nature of this forum is to have open debates. If you want a one on one debate, take it to private messages.

[Crystal]

said:

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAURGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THIS IS NOT AT ALL WHAT I INTENDED, GOODBYE AND I HOPE SOMEBODY LOCKS THIS OR YOU ALL JUST LET IT DIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good grief. C'mon, you posted this in the Discussions and Debates place. Frankly, it's just immature and childish to expect everyone to do exactly as you want them to. If you want to control everyone, that's what fantasy writing is for.

Whoa, TAA. My mind seriously glitzed out at your post. XDDD It's not made for that sort of stuff just after exams.

As for myself - I believe in micro-evolution. As in, small things. Theoretically, if evolution were to be true, in a couple years we'd all be angels or something similar, so I don't really believe in that. Also, I personally think the 'creation of life' theory is... silly. If I wanted another whole new life thing, I could get a bunch of amino acids and strike lightning in it? Sorry, don't compute. X.x

As for the creationism theory - well, I believe in it to a point. Like Kiddo said, why shouldn't God create evolution? I'm not sure if that part of Genesis was symbolic or not, but I personally think it was. You know, one day = one millenium/century/whatever. However, I think evolution shouldn't be taught in schools. If they taught the creationism theory, there'd be a big to-do over it. Why? Forcing people to learn stuff they don't believe in. So if people don't believe in evolution or the Big Bang, it doesn't make sense to make them learn it too.

And anyway I don't see the point. Why are we arguing over something long-happened?

I hate history.

[theunorthodox]

said:

IT WASN'T SUPPOSED TO BE A MULTIPERSON DISCUSSION, IT WAS MEANT TO BE A TWO PERSON DEBATE!!!!! NOW SERIOUSLY STOP ALL POSTS!!!!!

You can't seriously make a thread this contravertial on your "12 noon, by the Rock, one bullet in the chamber" conditions to try to tilt whatever you were trying to prove in your favor.

Any resonable person can agree with basic evolution. Say there's a specie of bird that's life function is to eat insects out of holes in the ground. Now say sometimes there is a mutation among the specie where some bird will be born with a more slender beak or stronger neck muscles that allow it to get food easier. This bird, the specialized one, will become stronger and eat the other less specialized birds out of their food. This bird will get the choice of mates and produce offspring with similar qualities. It's offspring shall in turn go on and eventually take over the region with their special adaptations. Thus the specie changes for the better and 'evolves'. It's happened before...I don't see why people have such a hard time finding any rationality in it. It seems perfectly logical to me.

Though I'm not sure if I buy evolution for the start of life, it's the explanation I find most acceptable and believable. Simple as that.


Edit: Btw TAA, nicely put. I wish I had the energy to say something as pretty as that.

[Mossy]

Hmm ... my views on this are hardly complex, yet confusing. But I'll post them anyway:

Personally, I do not know - nor do I really care - how we actually came into existance. It didn't just happen overnight. I believe that it must have been a long and complicated process starting from single-celled organisims. Now, I support the theory that we evolved from apes. I'm not entirely sure how, but apes are very smart. I've seen apes copy human actions very accurately, after watching them only a few times. Anyway, I think that there might've been a ... mutation, if you will, thus creating an ape, with more human characteristics. Maybe very slight, like less hair. This being acted like an ape and mated with other apes, giving birth to another slightly-less-ape. Maybe this one was a little different. Maybe it had a different shaped face from being squashed. This continued for a while until you got two compleletly different species. Highly unlikely, I know, but it makes sense ... in a way

And I think, that maybe God wasn't created? Maybe he just was? Is it possible to think for a second that maybe one thing didn't have a beggining? Now, since that theory is so ... not, here's another one. The Big Bang. We have the Big Bang and a universe is created! Along with a divine being. There's Gods beggining. Before you flame me, think about it. YOu've got the bang which creates the universe and it created something else as well. A being so powerful that it was able to create something else in it's image. Don't ask me how I thought of that. I just did.

Now, I'm guessing that we will never find out how we really came to be. Of course, time will go on and the human race will get smarter and smarter, but the past will be further and further away, so it will be harder to study.

And that's my two ... three ... five cents.

[Crystal]

Mossy said:

Hmm ... my views on this are hardly complex, yet confusing. But I'll post them anyway:

Personally, I do not know - nor do I really care - how we actually came into existance. It didn't just happen overnight. I believe that it must have been a long and complicated process starting from single-celled organisims. Now, I support the theory that we evolved from apes. I'm not entirely sure how, but apes are very smart. I've seen apes copy human actions very accurately, after watching them only a few times. Anyway, I think that there might've been a ... mutation, if you will, thus creating an ape, with more human characteristics. Maybe very slight, like less hair. This being acted like an ape and mated with other apes, giving birth to another slightly-less-ape. Maybe this one was a little different. Maybe it had a different shaped face from being squashed. This continued for a while until you got two compleletly different species. Highly unlikely, I know, but it makes sense ... in a way

And I think, that maybe God wasn't created? Maybe he just was? Is it possible to think for a second that maybe one thing didn't have a beggining? Now, since that theory is so ... not, here's another one. The Big Bang. We have the Big Bang and a universe is created! Along with a divine being. There's Gods beggining. Before you flame me, think about it. YOu've got the bang which creates the universe and it created something else as well. A being so powerful that it was able to create something else in it's image. Don't ask me how I thought of that. I just did.

Now, I'm guessing that we will never find out how we really came to be. Of course, time will go on and the human race will get smarter and smarter, but the past will be further and further away, so it will be harder to study.

And that's my two ... three ... five cents.

X.x

And now we come to the arguement of exactly WHERE the Big Bang came from if there was nothing originally. I'm no Physics expert (rawrfinalswaslastweekevilevilevilbrainnotfunctioning), but wasn't there something that I've most likely forgotten about everything having to come from something? Energy doesn't manifest or destruct itself, it just changes. Matter is matter. Everything comes from something. That's why the Big Bang never made sense to me. The first time I read about it I thought the people who wrote that book I was reading had to be joking. If it came from some original atom, where WAS that atom if there was no universe?