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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2004 9:42:08 GMT -5
Well as a Christian I am against all prejudice, and that includes people who are homophobic. I think being homophobic is as bad as racism or sexism. Homophobia is a fear, and is not a complete choice. If you hate homophobics, it's like saying you hate people that are afraid of heights. They can't help it. I am homophobic. I don't hate homosexuals, but I fear them. Why? Partially because of society, partially because of my paranoia. Society makes you think that being homosexual is bad. It also makes you think that if you hang out with people who are no socially acceptable, that you are either one of them, or not socially acceptable. My paranoia makes me think that everyone is judging me. For a while, some people thought I was gay (even my own brother). I wanted to clear myself of that, because it wasn't true, and if people thought I was gay, how could I ever get a girlfriend? So, I think that if I hang out with homosexuals, people will think that I too am homosexual. It's an unfortunate situation, but one that I can't control. Homophobia is a fear, not a hatred. You could also argue that racism and sexism are caused by the same ways. This is true, however then you must realize that racism and sexism are hatred. People who hate homosexuals and then call themselves homophobics may indeed fear homosexuals, but homophobics do not need to hate homosexuals. That takes a bit of logic to figure out. Sort of like how a square is a rectangle and a rhombus, but rhombi and rectangles don't have to be squares. |
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Post by teghan62 on Aug 25, 2004 14:38:57 GMT -5
The people that have a problem with the Homosexual lifestyle are those that believe that it is wrong and a sin due to their Biblical beliefs. The Bible says what it says. ...have you read it closely enough, or did the New Testament throw something extra in? Because in the Jewish Bible it's not wrong for homosexuals to love, it's only wrong for them to do sexual acts. |
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Post by Stal on Aug 25, 2004 15:02:12 GMT -5
...have you read it closely enough, or did the New Testament throw something extra in? Because in the Jewish Bible it's not wrong for homosexuals to love, it's only wrong for them to do sexual acts. You're correct in one sense, that is only practicing the homosexuality is wrong. But Teghan, it's also more than the "letter of the law" it's the spirit of the law as well (the intent) which is one of the things Jesus brought to light during the New Testament. And those that feel they have homosexual tendencies but do NOT act on them and try to overcome them (trivia: For the longest time Homosexuality was treated and diagnosed as a mental condition much like Schizophrenia...though those two are much different, I hope you get the example.) There's also a few scriptures that says things like "But these will not inherit the Kingdom of God...homosexuals..." that is those that are practicing homosexuals when that time comes. I'll throw in how my religion interperts it so everyone will see where I am coming from, and that is in the end ALL will get a chance to know God. Everyone will be ressurected and come to know him, as he is not calling everyone now and at this time (stated within the Bible). So at that time, He will teach the world about His ways of life and His laws. Those that did not believe before, and I hope no offense is taken by this to anyone...but I'm going to use the NTWF as an example. Those on the NTWF, people like Oily and what-not that didn't believe before will be given that chance to get to know God. To be taught His laws and statutes. Then after a certain time, they have to make a choice. A choice of living the way God has set before them, or rejecting his teachings and doing their own thing At that point, the people who continue to practice and continue to sin and totally reject his way of life will be thrown into the Lake of Fire, which will basically devour you up and destroy you and that's it. No eternal suffering or pain...you're just gone and not going to live forever in God's Kingdom as everyone else. And while that's majorly off-topic I hope it answers your question of my perspective. |
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Post by Tahu on Aug 25, 2004 15:28:16 GMT -5
Hmm... Coming from the point of veiw of an atheist (Ok, my point of veiw, not nessesarly an atheiestic one...), that statment made it look like god is kind of desperate. Either beilvie in him, or be destroyed...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2004 15:37:55 GMT -5
You know what? The whole idea of marital benefits in the US is unconstitutional.
Isn't marital status something for which you can't be discriminated against?
Well then, why do married people get tax breaks?
People say they don't want homosexuals to get married because of religious reasons. Well, religion has no place in the government, right?
So then, there's no reason for homosexuals not to get married (as in, it wouldn't harm anyone else). Except for taxes.
So now people are trying to use that amendment in the constitution about marriage between a man and a woman so that homosexuals can't get tax breaks, which isn't fair to them, because they shouldn't have to go against their ways just to get a tax break.
It's the same with people who can't get married because they can't seem to find someone who wants to marry them. It's not their fault, so why should they be punished for it?
If marriage is purely religious, as some people suggest, then it has no place in the constitution in the first place.
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Post by althechia on Aug 25, 2004 15:56:06 GMT -5
But here's the thing...even with that it either is or isn't. I'm considering it, but just like on the subject, I think they're wrong (just as they think I'm wrong). But I'm not going to kitty cat-foot around the fact that I think I'm right and say why so. If people disagree with me, fine. That's cool. But I think they're wrong. This is not an either/or or shades of gray for me. It's Black-and-white. So yeah, I'm considering it, I just don't care. Al, commenting on something you said..."Blacks and women wanted to be seen as equals in the eyes of your God, in the eyes of the state, and in the eyes of everyone around them, which was at the time unthinkable, and now, is the norm." There's nothing in the Bible that even states that being a woman or being Black is wrong or makes you inferior. Yes, it talks of women submitting to their husband, but that is not in an inferior sense if you actually read it how it's intended. But the Bible says outright that Homosexuality is a sin. God has said it. So, to be frank, there's little chance you'll be "accepted as okay" by God. Maybe by society, but by society's standards pornography and fornication are a-ok. They're not to God. Those behaviors and lifestyles are wrong and sinful. So, I'm sorry to disappoint you, but I thought your statement a little odd and had to comment. I'd love to change your mind, as well as many other minds like it, and I could sit here and try and try and try all day and all night, for months and for years. People have. I don't have the dedication to do that for that long, but I can try in my own small ways here. This issue is personally very important to me, and the frustration is killing me, so I think I'm going to leave it before it starts bothering me here at home. So, I'm going to try and be very, very careful about what I'm posting here. America was founded under religious freedom. We have the right to worship anything the way we want to worship it. Now, people in the past have used this excuse to burn witches, maim the 'heathen' Native Americans, and other such things. I am, personally, not asking anyone to burn straight people. What gay marriage is asking for is (very nearly) socially acceptable, here in America, right now, as soon as we are ready for it. It is (very nearly) legally acceptable, right now. And it is (very nearly) religiously acceptable as well. I think it will happen. Gay marriage would not harm straight marriage, nor would it personally harm your church. Depending on what is asked for, your church or state can reserve the right to refuse service. You are not required to have a double wedding with two men in wedding dresses. Marriages will be seperate and deeply personal, just as all marriages are. All I've heard lately is talk about how God would disapprove if we went ahead with it. Well, despite how wonderful Christianity is and what good it has done, it is not the government, and it should not control all the other peoples and their religions in this country, as has been seen in the past. I'm not Christian. And yet, I can't even get married in my OWN religion, which would probably be alright with it, or even in just a LEGAL sense, because your God says it's wrong. But your God isn't EVERYONE'S God. One interpretation should not rule over all. For example, we have a death penalty in this country, and yet the pope, the epitomy of Christianity, has condemned it. (I agree with the church on this, but this is an example, not another issue I wish to discuss.) But all this aside, as far as religion is concerned, I think it all comes down to these questions. My biases force me to word this in a way slanted to my favor, but it is a question most Christians in America should be asking themselves. Who is punishing me, and millions of other people, for being gay? Your God, or God's people? Am I different from the ideal vision of your God, who supposedly created ALL of us in his image, or am I just different from you? Do you really personally believe that what I am, what millions of people are, is wrong on a social, legal, AND religious level, and that your values reflect the general opinion of others? Personally, it's painful to think that so many PEOPLE, not religions, cannot accept me, personally, for who I am. Perhaps that's a little too selfish, I don't know. Perhaps I should be thinking more of gay people in general, or of half-Japanese people in general, or all the other little quirks I have that I can relate to others with, but I don't. I've often been told to just give up trying to change other people's opinions and prejudices, but I think right now, at least, I really do want to try. Wow, this was nearing a rant...Sorry. |
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Post by Stal on Aug 25, 2004 20:01:53 GMT -5
Al...I want to comment on one thing...where do you get the idea that God and Religion is cool with homosexuality?
By the way, the Pope is the eptiome of Catholicism. Not Christianity. There is a difference.
And here's the thing. Just because not everyone believes the same way I do doesn't mean I don't think things should not be done a certain way because so. You're supposed to speak up for your own beliefs and values. If those come from religion origin, then you do it anyway.
By the way, I'm tired of hearing this "Tax break" thing. That's just it! Marriages don't get a tax break! Often times, married couples have to pay more in taxes than two single people living together! It all has to do with how the taxes are filed.
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Post by Oily on Aug 26, 2004 7:43:49 GMT -5
Then why can people be genetically predisposed to violence, or alcoholism. It's not just fear. "The term homophobia means fear or hatred of, aversion to, or prejudice or unjust discrimination against homosexual people. It is sometimes used to mean any sort of opposition to same-sex romance or sexual activity. Homophobia is not a psychiatric term. There is no such thing as clinical homophobia, though the phenomenon of homophobia continues to be studied by groups like the American Psychiatric Association and the American Psychological Association. Some studies have linked deep hatred towards homosexuality to repressed homosexual feelings. (see "internalised homophobia", below). " "The term homophobia means fear or hatred of, aversion to, or prejudice or discrimination against people who engage in homosexual acts. It is sometimes used to mean any sort of opposition to same-sex romance or sexual activity, though this may more accurately be called anti-gay bias." Homophobia, as I showed above, is not strictly a fear. I find what you're saying to be sad :/ Why should you be so worried about what others think? It's a shame you feel you're pressured into that. You're scared of being seen as gay, not of gay people. Homophobia, as a fear, is not clinically recognised. It's an unfortunate situation, yes, but it's not homophobia. It's society, or you. And it's not the same as other fears. Heh, I'm not offended, I just giggled. I had a mental image of a having a dinner-date with God  Never give up. If everyone thinks like that, the world would just slip into apathy. Even if nothing changes, the point is that the effort was made. Yes, but it's not your religion that will have to agree with it. I speak up for what I believe in, but I wouldn't force your church to marry homosexual couples if it goes against what they believe in. I agree wholeheartedly with Al here. Yes, you are entitled to your own beliefs. But where does it say those beliefs can be forced upon others? Two people are married. If one dies, the other pays no inheritance tax. They get little things, like insurance and health benefits. They get rights, as a legally recognised partner, that two people just living together don't. My aunt and uncle just got married properly, probably because of the inheritance tax thing And it's symbolic. Why should anyone get married at all (apart from tax reasons)? Just to show how deep and lasting their love is. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2004 9:03:27 GMT -5
Then why can people be genetically predisposed to violence, or alcoholism. It's not just fear. "The term homophobia means fear or hatred of, aversion to, or prejudice or unjust discrimination against homosexual people. It is sometimes used to mean any sort of opposition to same-sex romance or sexual activity. Homophobia is not a psychiatric term. There is no such thing as clinical homophobia, though the phenomenon of homophobia continues to be studied by groups like the American Psychiatric Association and the American Psychological Association. Some studies have linked deep hatred towards homosexuality to repressed homosexual feelings. (see "internalised homophobia", below). " "The term homophobia means fear or hatred of, aversion to, or prejudice or discrimination against people who engage in homosexual acts. It is sometimes used to mean any sort of opposition to same-sex romance or sexual activity, though this may more accurately be called anti-gay bias." Homophobia, as I showed above, is not strictly a fear. I find what you're saying to be sad :/ Why should you be so worried about what others think? It's a shame you feel you're pressured into that. You're scared of being seen as gay, not of gay people. Homophobia, as a fear, is not clinically recognised. It's an unfortunate situation, yes, but it's not homophobia. It's society, or you. And it's not the same as other fears. Heh, I'm not offended, I just giggled. I had a mental image of a having a dinner-date with God :P Never give up. If everyone thinks like that, the world would just slip into apathy. Even if nothing changes, the point is that the effort was made. Yes, but it's not your religion that will have to agree with it. I speak up for what I believe in, but I wouldn't force your church to marry homosexual couples if it goes against what they believe in. I agree wholeheartedly with Al here. Yes, you are entitled to your own beliefs. But where does it say those beliefs can be forced upon others? Two people are married. If one dies, the other pays no inheritance tax. They get little things, like insurance and health benefits. They get rights, as a legally recognised partner, that two people just living together don't. My aunt and uncle just got married properly, probably because of the inheritance tax thing :P And it's symbolic. Why should anyone get married at all (apart from tax reasons)? Just to show how deep and lasting their love is. You have a lot of good points... Like I said, though, I don't hate homosexuals. But I'm paranoid of what people think, and I can not help that. |
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Post by Stal on Aug 26, 2004 11:54:46 GMT -5
Yes, but it's not your religion that will have to agree with it. I speak up for what I believe in, but I wouldn't force your church to marry homosexual couples if it goes against what they believe in. I agree wholeheartedly with Al here. Yes, you are entitled to your own beliefs. But where does it say those beliefs can be forced upon others? That's where we'll have to disagree, I guess. As a Christian, I feel it is my obligation to "let my light shine", so-to-speak. That is, speak out for exactly what I believe in and make it known that's what it is. *shrugs* I'll give you guys that as far as legal terms go, there is no reason that gay's should not be allowed to be in a union of some sort. But I tend to think that the legal system of America today is a bit, well, wrong. The entire meaning of "Freedom of Religion" has been greatly miscontorted (I've argued that point enough before for you all the realize what I mean). So that's why I say what I say. By the way, I want to apologize for any posts in the past few days, on any of the threads I'm on right now, where I've come across as harsh. College is getting to me a little.  So I end up lashing out again. |
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Post by Oily on Aug 26, 2004 15:49:17 GMT -5
You have a lot of good points... Like I said, though, I don't hate homosexuals. But I'm paranoid of what people think, and I can not help that. Thank you ^^ This is just about the only thing in life I have a strong opinion on. Anything else I could just about argue on both sides for. I think we're all a little scared of what people think  You have to have great self confidence not to be. That's where we'll have to disagree, I guess. As a Christian, I feel it is my obligation to "let my light shine", so-to-speak. That is, speak out for exactly what I believe in and make it known that's what it is. *shrugs* I'll give you guys that as far as legal terms go, there is no reason that gay's should not be allowed to be in a union of some sort. But I tend to think that the legal system of America today is a bit, well, wrong. The entire meaning of "Freedom of Religion" has been greatly miscontorted (I've argued that point enough before for you all the realize what I mean). So that's why I say what I say. By the way, I want to apologize for any posts in the past few days, on any of the threads I'm on right now, where I've come across as harsh. College is getting to me a little. So I end up lashing out again. Between you, Linny and Tdyans, I've been put off ever going to college :/ |
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Post by althechia on Aug 26, 2004 17:14:35 GMT -5
Al...I want to comment on one thing...where do you get the idea that God and Religion is cool with homosexuality? By the way, the Pope is the eptiome of Catholicism. Not Christianity. There is a difference. And here's the thing. Just because not everyone believes the same way I do doesn't mean I don't think things should not be done a certain way because so. You're supposed to speak up for your own beliefs and values. If those come from religion origin, then you do it anyway. By the way, I'm tired of hearing this "Tax break" thing. That's just it! Marriages don't get a tax break! Often times, married couples have to pay more in taxes than two single people living together! It all has to do with how the taxes are filed. It's not all about taxes, you know. If one gay partner is injured and hospitalized, it's possible the other partner couldn't be allowed to see them because they are not family and they don't count as a spouse. Also, should that partner die, the body wouldn't go to the other partner, rather, it would go to the family, and they would decide what to do with it. Also, gay couples don't get to share everything in the same manner as married couples do. There cannot be evenly divided divorces or pre-nuptial agreements for gay couples living together. There are lots of little overlooked legal benefits to marriage. Don't think every gay person with a lover just wants more money. And what's this about God AND religion? Not every conceived religion in the world is against homosexuals. Not every solitary speck of Christianity is, either. Most of the mainstream religions may have something against it, but I personally couldn't care less about them. |
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Post by Stal on Aug 26, 2004 17:18:58 GMT -5
It's not all about taxes, you know. If one gay partner is injured and hospitalized, it's possible the other partner couldn't be allowed to see them because they are not family and they don't count as a spouse. Also, should that partner die, the body wouldn't go to the other partner, rather, it would go to the family, and they would decide what to do with it. Also, gay couples don't get to share everything in the same manner as married couples do. There cannot be evenly divided divorces or pre-nuptial agreements for gay couples living together. There are lots of little overlooked legal benefits to marriage. Don't think every gay person with a lover just wants more money. And what's this about God AND religion? Not every conceived religion in the world is against homosexuals. Not every solitary speck of Christianity is, either. Most of the mainstream religions may have something against it, but I personally couldn't care less about them. You didn't convey that. When you spoke of religious acceptance, it seemed to me like you were speaking of Religions in a very GENERAL sense by which you mean all. |
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Post by althechia on Aug 26, 2004 17:30:08 GMT -5
You didn't convey that. When you spoke of religious acceptance, it seemed to me like you were speaking of Religions in a very GENERAL sense by which you mean all. Well, sorry about that. |
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Post by The Angry Artist on Aug 29, 2004 22:07:46 GMT -5
So far the only arguement for the ban on gay marriage that has been presented to me has to do with religion. Befoer you tell me, "I should be Christian and I will go to hell because I am not," remember that not everyone in the United States is Christian. We shouldn't follow your religious beliefs because you're Christian. That doesn't make you right. And what's this talk of no gay gene? Do you have any proof? Any published material by a credible source stating there is no gay gene?
And ah! my challenge still goes unanswered. Why shouldn't there be a constitutional amendment against hereosexual marriage? Ignoring the issue only shows that you have no answer because you are a heterosexual as much as I am. Yet you are willing to discriminate against people like Al because they are different from you. Have you ever read To Kill A Mockingbird? You don't know a man until you crawl into his skin and walk around in it.
Show me an arguement that does not rely on religion, morals, tradition, or any social point of view. Show me a view that goes by the constitution or the Delcaration of Independence.
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So I end up lashing out again.
You have to have great self confidence not to be.