Separation of Church and State

[KittyKadaveral]

Yuki said:

Kitty, do you not think that you're right when you debate something? Because it seems to me that you think you are.

For the most part, I was kidding. That's why I put the emoticon there. Anyone who's debated with me knows I have a very set mindframe when it comes to issues regarding morality, the Bible, religion, and so forth. Buddy can testify to that point. Everyone knows that I think that I'm right when I debate, just as everyone else thinks that they're right (why else would you be in a debate?). My statement was just meant as a humorous jest at the fact that I tend to get frustrated when debating. I believe myself to be right (as my opponents think themselves are--notice how often I'm repeating this fact) and they don't listen or see me to be correct...highly frustrating, is it not?

So that's pretty much what I meant. Hope that clears things up.

Indeed and you have my apologies. I know that sometimes typing does give wrong feelings at times because something simple can be mistaken for something being awful. Again, I am sorry and yes, you are right on the fact that yes folks do feel they are right in what they believe in or are debating. I suppose that in my own temporary insanity I just was taking that to sound like this friend of mine (well, semi-ex friend because of the racist thing he said not too long ago) said making it sound like he's the only one right in what he's saying and that I was stupid or ignorant to think otherwise and that I should bend and change my views. Hmmm...well, all though that might be good in some cases like helping convince a kid not to take drugs or something, you can't justify saying innocent people who were unarmed deserved to die and got what was coming to them Bah, long story, but I guess my only point is that it just sounded like him with that 'im always right' and I just felt bad, 'tis all and again you have my apologies ::bows and slips out of the room to go play her flute hoping to clear negative thoughts in the future::

[Oily]

Which I find rather odd. Perhaps it's not known because it doesn't take place in America, but it's not uncommon for Christians to be killed or imprisoned in Islam countries. Officials usually just look the other way...

You just touched on something that really bothers me Oily. I wish other religions got as much scrutiny as Christianity because maybe then Voice of the Martyrs could be disbanded.

I certainly do find it odd that Christianity is so bashed, in a way. I do think it's because it's a very big religion and very common, that people feel it's OK to criticise it. Criticising other religions will earn you the tag "racist" or something like that. I think authorities have to tiptoe around other fundamentalist groups.

I really do think there should be more control over all extremist religious groups, Christian and all the other faiths and sects.

So, am I ‘the other type’ now? Because of two sentences?

No. I hope I didn't imply you were some of the far more militant people I've had negative experiences with I was using those examples as contrasts. You are at least open minded

Kittie, I can assure you - Hitler was an atheist. Perhaps later today I'll go and get some information somewhere to prove it, but trust me - he was.

Hitler hated all religons - not just the Jews. He probably hated the Jews more than any of them, but he talked about them most, as they were the easiest religon to seel as to why to hate them. But he hated others too. He believed he was god, and so hated any religon which didn't acknowledge that - that being all other religons.

Trust me, I've done plenty of research on WW2, so I know. It's the one war that actually interests me.

I don't know Hitler's personal religion, but I do know he used Christianity. He formed the Reich Church, where people worshipped Hitler and God - a Nazified church where they flew the Nazi flag and gave their salute. The WW2 soldiers prayed to God or the Virgin Mary. Hitler shut down some other religions, but only because they opposed him. The Jews were scapegoats because they were a minority, some of which were extremely wealthy, and so attracted people's hate during the Depression.

Who knew History GCSE would be good for something? I've covered Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia, WW2, Superpower Relations and we get to do Vietnam and the Suffragettes too


In England, it turns out there is no seperation of church and state: 29 bishops automatically sit in the House of Lords, and the Church of England is the offical religion. But because so many Christians here seem to be so liberal, it doesn't enfringe on life at all. In fact, I think law is less influenced by religion than in the US. I think it might be different in the USA. It would have been different here if it was a Catholic church, rather than the Church of England, for instance.

[Stal]

*sitting back and watching, enjoying not being intimately involved in a debate for a change*

Actually, I doubt Hitler was an atheist. It's a common belief among my family, and other people in my church that I know, that Hitler was more than likely possessed by a demon (possibly even Satan himself), though I forget all the reasons that are used to support the statement.

Just thought I might mention that. ^_^

And though I'm not going to debate the facts, I feel like I should go ahead and throw out a few points to help make the debate interesting for everyone else. You can research it at your own leisure if you wish to use it:

1. The Declaration of Independence is actually a higher document than the Constitution, and the Constitution must be in agreement with the Declaration. Just as a company's founding documents (the Declaration) is a higher document than the bylaws (Constitution) and the bylaws must be in accordence. In the Declaration of Independence, a higher power, God, is recognized. This is not a very well known fact.

2. Case law (going by previous trials and cases) is a big thing in the supreme courts. Case law has been used for centuries, even, and always been a huge deal. In the 1960s - 70s (whichever decade it was) trial that the first utterance of "Seperation of Church and State" was heard and ruled upon, case law was never mentioned throughout the trial.

3. Atheism/Non-religion is a recognized religion by the United States Government, ruled so by the supreme court. I forget the details surrounding it, but basically it was said that atheists were being discriminated against due to their "religious beliefs" and that so by officially recognizing atheism/non-religion as a form of religion the persecution would then become illegal. So if those are official religions, then why is atheism/non-religion allowed into the schools as the only form of religion, period?

Those are the only points on my mind right now. So have fun with those everyone. ;D And no, I don't think I'll be responding to any posts that talk about those points. I'm just presenting information, not debating. *smirk*

[Buddy]

Yuki said:

1. The Declaration of Independence is actually a higher document than the Constitution, and the Constitution must be in agreement with the Declaration. Just as a company's founding documents (the Declaration) is a higher document than the bylaws (Constitution) and the bylaws must be in accordence. In the Declaration of Independence, a higher power, God, is recognized. This is not a very well known fact.

That's not true. The Declaration is not higher than the Constitution. The Constitution is the cornerstone of our country's government - it spells out the laws, who will enforce those laws, and how they will be enforced. All laws made in this country must conform to the Constitution.

The Declaration of Independence was merely the colonists "declaring" their "independence" from Britain. It really has no merit in the legal system at all, other than those couple little infamous quotes which, while being the morals on which we run this nation, again, have no legal standing.

I don't know where you got that one from!

2. Case law (going by previous trials and cases) is a big thing in the supreme courts. Case law has been used for centuries, even, and always been a huge deal. In the 1960s - 70s (whichever decade it was) trial that the first utterance of "Seperation of Church and State" was heard and ruled upon, case law was never mentioned throughout the trial.

Okay... I'm not sure if I see the point... All that says is that neither lawyer in this case choose to bring up past rulings to prove their points.

3. Atheism/Non-religion is a recognized religion by the United States Government, ruled so by the supreme court. I forget the details surrounding it, but basically it was said that atheists were being discriminated against due to their "religious beliefs" and that so by officially recognizing atheism/non-religion as a form of religion the persecution would then become illegal. So if those are official religions, then why is atheism/non-religion allowed into the schools as the only form of religion, period?

First, how can "non-religon" be counted as a religon? Seems like a paradox, to me. And what case was this? I have a feeling something was taken out of context...

Second, the schools don't teach Atheism - which is, by definition, the belief in no god. Schools don't teach there being a god or there not being a god - they simply choose not to acknowledge it either way. They neither accept Him, nor discredit Him. They simply do not mention Him.

And if schools are teaching that there is no god, well, they shouldn't. And that should be stopped.

Those are the only points on my mind right now. So have fun with those everyone. ;D And no, I don't think I'll be responding to any posts that talk about those points. I'm just presenting information, not debating. *smirk*

Surrrrrre....

[Stal]

Buddy said:

That's not true. The Declaration is not higher than the Constitution. The Constitution is the cornerstone of our country's government - it spells out the laws, who will enforce those laws, and how they will be enforced. All laws made in this country must conform to the Constitution.

The Declaration of Independence was merely the colonists "declaring" their "independence" from Britain. It really has no merit in the legal system at all, other than those couple little infamous quotes which, while being the morals on which we run this nation, again, have no legal standing.

Buddy, I'd suggest you do some research on that subject. The Declaration of Independence is the founding document of this nation (small bit of trivia: Our country is actually a Republic and not a Democracy), and a higher document as such than the Constitution. This is not a very widely known fact, and something pretty much ignored, but it's true. So I seriously say, go do some research on that topic and see what you find.

EDIT -- Actually, I urge everyone to go and do research on the topic. Don't take my word for it here. Unfortunately I can't present my sources or proof as these were all things I've learned at one time and therefore my sources are not at hand to give out. Due to time and relying solely on my memory, I may have gotten things wrong, though I'm pretty sure (unless stated otherwise in the post) all things I said were correct.

If you don't believe me go do research on it, come back and if you have proof of otherwise let me see it. If I can be proven wrong, I'll recant the statement(s).

[Princess Ember Mononoke]

Buddy said:

Second, the schools don't teach Atheism - which is, by definition, the belief in no god. Schools don't teach there being a god or there not being a god - they simply choose not to acknowledge it either way. They neither accept Him, nor discredit Him. They simply do not mention Him.

And if schools are teaching that there is no god, well, they shouldn't. And that should be stopped.

*nods* He's right about that. I have tried VERY hard to have talks with some of my teachers about evolution, as I find it a very interesting topic, but they always say that they're not allowed to even mention it, and could get in serious trouble for just saying the word "evolution." I once found a private school that taught evolution, and I would have liked very much to stay there and learn it, but... er... I ended not being able to stay there for more than a week. LOOOONG story. Anyhow, there are PLENTY of private schools that teach Creation and other Chrisian beliefs, and at any rate, Christian kids can learn that type of thing at church. I myself have just had to learn about evolution on my own time, with whatever books I can dig up on the subject and with no one with a greater knowledge than me to discuss it with.
So don't say that the education system is biased against Christians.

[Stal]

Ember said:

*nods* He's right about that. I have tried VERY hard to have talks with some of my teachers about evolution, as I find it a very interesting topic, but they always say that they're not allowed to even mention it, and could get in serious trouble for just saying the word "evolution." I once found a private school that taught evolution, and I would have liked very much to stay there and learn it, but... er... I ended not being able to stay there for more than a week. LOOOONG story. Anyhow, there are PLENTY of private schools that teach Creation and other Chrisian beliefs, and at any rate, Christian kids can learn that type of thing at church. I myself have just had to learn about evolution on my own time, with whatever books I can dig up on the subject and with no one with a greater knowledge than me to discuss it with.
So don't say that the education system is biased against Christians.

Ember, that's amazing. A school that can't teach Evolution? I've never heard that one. In fact in most public school textbooks I've seen, evolution is taught as fact and the teachers do so as well.

Wherever you live seems to be doing it correctly, then. I applaud that.

[Buddy]

Yuki said:

Buddy, I'd suggest you do some research on that subject. The Declaration of Independence is the founding document of this nation (small bit of trivia: Our country is actually a Republic and not a Democracy), and a higher document as such than the Constitution. This is not a very widely known fact, and something pretty much ignored, but it's true. So I seriously say, go do some research on that topic and see what you find.

EDIT -- Actually, I urge everyone to go and do research on the topic. Don't take my word for it here. Unfortunately I can't present my sources or proof as these were all things I've learned at one time and therefore my sources are not at hand to give out. Due to time and relying solely on my memory, I may have gotten things wrong, though I'm pretty sure (unless stated otherwise in the post) all things I said were correct.

If you don't believe me go do research on it, come back and if you have proof of otherwise let me see it. If I can be proven wrong, I'll recant the statement(s).

Just what do you mean by "higher"? Do you mean, the document that has the most power over our government? The document that has more of an effect on our government? The document that has more basis of our government in it? "Higher" can mean many things.

Yuki said:

Ember, that's amazing. A school that can't teach Evolution? I've never heard that one. In fact in most public school textbooks I've seen, evolution is taught as fact and the teachers do so as well.

Wherever you live seems to be doing it correctly, then. I applaud that.

Yes, in fact, most science textbooks that I've seen (including my own) don't even mention evolution in them. Kind of sad, really. At least, I think so...

[KittyKadaveral]

I just finished watching the movie Major League. For those of you who don't know anything about it, it's a movie about my home team the Cleveland Indians. They got a bunch of losers to be on the team so the new owner can move them to Miami instead. Anyway, they had a guy in there who practiced voo doo. You also had the guy that was in to being Christian. Well, he called the voo doo dude a savage for his belief and that is exactly what the white man called all the Native Americans for their beliefs. What I don't understand is where anyone gets off in calling someone a savage because they don't believe in the Christian God? I don't call people that for not having my belief in the Great Spirit so what gives? I just don't think that's right and it's no wonder why people do tend to bash Christians or turn their back on that such as myself...well, the back turning actually, as for the bashing, I have questions and challenge, but I never say a person is an idiot for it. It's sort of like the saying that goes the difference between those of us with tattoos and those of you without them is those of us with them don't care that you don't have one. Meaning, if I have no problem with your stuff, why have one with mine? Savage indeed..the only savage in this world is the government.

[Stal]

Update: I'll have to do some more study on this myself, and get that book back out of the library. To re-read what it says and how it goes about stating the declaration of independence is a higher document, meaning a document with more 'precendence' that all the other documents must therefore agree with, but I may be wrong on this fact. I'll quote below something I just found:

By virtue of the Articles being adopted, they superseded the Declaration of Independence. Although the Declaration may well have been what Alan Keyes calls a "founding document," it was the founding document of the Revolution but did not become a "founding document" of the union created by the Articles of Confederation. Subsequently, the Constitution superseded the Articles and by so doing, the Constitution -- not the Articles-- became the founding document of our nation. Thus, the Declaration is no more a "founding document" than are the Articles of Confederation. Instead, both the Declaration and the Articles served as inspiration for the process leading to establishment of the Constitution as our founding document.

Give me some time to see if I can't recall the book I'd read this contrary opinion in, and check it out (if available) and I'll be able to present the case that the DoI is a higher document (if there's any case at all) at that time.

[Princess Ember Mononoke]

Yuki said:

Ember, that's amazing. A school that can't teach Evolution? I've never heard that one. In fact in most public school textbooks I've seen, evolution is taught as fact and the teachers do so as well.

Wherever you live seems to be doing it correctly, then. I applaud that.

I live in Arizona, and it's one of the few correct choices our state has made education-wise. I think there are ten or so other states that have the same rule.

By virtue of the Articles being adopted, they superseded the Declaration of Independence. Although the Declaration may well have been what Alan Keyes calls a "founding document," it was the founding document of the Revolution but did not become a "founding document" of the union created by the Articles of Confederation. Subsequently, the Constitution superseded the Articles and by so doing, the Constitution -- not the Articles-- became the founding document of our nation. Thus, the Declaration is no more a "founding document" than are the Articles of Confederation. Instead, both the Declaration and the Articles served as inspiration for the process leading to establishment of the Constitution as our founding document.

You see, I could have told you that (with much less fancy terms:P) and Buddy DID. I used to think that the Declaration was our founding document, but I learned otherwise when studying American history in sixth grade.

[Stal]

Ember said:

You see, I could have told you that (with much less fancy terms:P) and Buddy DID. I used to think that the Declaration was our founding document, but I learned otherwise when studying American history in sixth grade.

Actually, Buddy just said what both Documents were and claimed the DoI had no legal standing. There was nothing talking about the process through which both were adopted and so forth. And so I thought Buddy was just refuting what he believed to be wrong, and not taking his word for it, I looked it up.

If you read the two statements closely, you'll see that they're pretty different indeed.

[ghostision]

Ember said:

*nods* He's right about that. I have tried VERY hard to have talks with some of my teachers about evolution, as I find it a very interesting topic, but they always say that they're not allowed to even mention it, and could get in serious trouble for just saying the word "evolution." I once found a private school that taught evolution, and I would have liked very much to stay there and learn it, but... er... I ended not being able to stay there for more than a week. LOOOONG story. Anyhow, there are PLENTY of private schools that teach Creation and other Chrisian beliefs, and at any rate, Christian kids can learn that type of thing at church. I myself have just had to learn about evolution on my own time, with whatever books I can dig up on the subject and with no one with a greater knowledge than me to discuss it with.
So don't say that the education system is biased against Christians.

We don't have that thing in our school, we're certainly allowed to discuss it with our teachers, at least. Is Arizona the only state to do that, or are there others, since I remember the media having a field day over something like that.
Our science teacher gave us a report to do on evolution, the school board didn't mind, but the kids had fits, and not just because there was a five page minimum.

[Princess Ember Mononoke]

Yuki said:

Actually, Buddy just said what both Documents were and claimed the DoI had no legal standing. There was nothing talking about the process through which both were adopted and so forth. And so I thought Buddy was just refuting what he believed to be wrong, and not taking his word for it, I looked it up.

If you read the two statements closely, you'll see that they're pretty different indeed.

Yeah, you're right. I just kind of inserted those things into Buddy's statement, because I knew what he presumably did.

[Princess Ember Mononoke]

ghostision said:

We don't have that thing in our school, we're certainly allowed to discuss it with our teachers, at least. Is Arizona the only state to do that, or are there others, since I remember the media having a field day over something like that.

Like I said in my other post, I think there about ten other states, but don't quote me on that, because it's just a shaky memory I have from back when I was a little kid (maybe nine or ten) and the law was passed and I was reading it in the paper. Yes, I DID read the paper when I was ten.