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Post by Buddy on Jun 23, 2004 20:03:46 GMT -5
Wait... I'm confused.... what did I say again?  |
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Post by Smiley on Jun 23, 2004 21:14:01 GMT -5
I haven't read through the entire thread, but here are some thoughts on the last page or so...
Evolution was in our text book, but it didn't go very in-depth. It just basically said what evolution was, and our teacher said, "You may or may not believe in evolution, this is just a thought and I'm not forcing any of you to believe it."
That last quote, Stal - it told me that the DoI and Articles led to the Constitution, but it didn't say anything about it, in itself, having true legality in our government. Or maybe I just need to read it again...
I think it makes perfect sense that non-religion is seen as a religion. Most people think of religion as a huge group of people that follow very similar beliefs. Religion really is, however, just what you believe in. So if you believe in nothing, that is the belief you hold, that is your religion- Non-religion.
And please, don't bombard me with dictionary definitions. I absolutely HATE that. That's like saying that our constitution is Websters. Bombard me with opinions instead ^_~. Truly, opinions are what shape our laws and government, not just facts and definitions. And because so many people have varying opinions, the laws are varying, and peoples' opinions on laws vary as well.
Anyway...
So, when you get down to the bottom line, everyone follows a religion, whether it be Christianity, Buddhism, Non-religion, etc. (I'm not saying that that is necessarily true in our society, just my opinion. I guess I shouldn't be stating it as a fact...).
I don't know what the point of this post was. I jumped back to the first page and realized it had nothing to do with the original topic... XD
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Post by Stal on Jun 23, 2004 21:29:39 GMT -5
That last quote, Stal - it told me that the DoI and Articles led to the Constitution, but it didn't say anything about it, in itself, having true legality in our government. Or maybe I just need to read it again... Psst...I used that quote as proof that I was wrong/needed to study into it again.  |
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Post by Smiley on Jun 23, 2004 22:03:48 GMT -5
Psst...I used that quote as proof that I was wrong/needed to study into it again. Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Well, that makes sense, then XD. And consider this post proof that I was wrong/needed to study into the quotes I was debating over again. |
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Post by mushroom on Jun 23, 2004 22:09:04 GMT -5
"No religion" is not a religion. It is a religious belief, but it isn't a religion--irreligious people basically don't think about religion at all unless religious people necessitate it**. American Atheists is there to fight against religion in government and other forms of religious discrimination (for example, government support of the Boy Scouts of America, which excludes atheists and homosexuals). The few decent atheist websites that exist are mostly to help irreligious people deal with religious people (for example, helping atheists articulate their arguments against a god or gods, or giving atheists advice on "coming out" to religious family members).
Saying a lack of religion is in itself a religion is like saying nudity is a kind of clothing, or darkness is a type of light. It's simply not true.
Edit: **For the most part. There are exceptions, of course--you'll find fanatical atheists occasionally, but not very often.
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Post by Stal on Jun 23, 2004 22:34:38 GMT -5
"No religion" is not a religion. Tell that to the US government who officially recognized it as a religion. |
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Post by Princess Ember Mononoke on Jun 23, 2004 22:45:13 GMT -5
I think that Aetheism (actively believing that there is no God) is a sort of religion, but just not THINKING about a God isn't. That doesn't make any sense.
Of course, if you ask me, there's a WORLD of difference between religion and spiritual beliefs. The term "religion," to me, implies some sort of dogma. If you think about it, all religions have rules of some sort. That's why I say I'm not religious - I think for myself, and I personally believe that even God doesn't have any "rules" It (I don't believe God is a male, as spirit transcends gender. Sorry if that offends you) wants you to follow, though you will just naturally be HAPPIER if you make certain choices in your life.
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Post by Buddy on Jun 24, 2004 8:56:11 GMT -5
So atheism is a religon. But what about not having a religon? Is that a religon, too?
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Post by KittyKadaveral on Jun 24, 2004 11:53:33 GMT -5
I think that Aetheism (actively believing that there is no God) is a sort of religion, but just not THINKING about a God isn't. That doesn't make any sense. Of course, if you ask me, there's a WORLD of difference between religion and spiritual beliefs. The term "religion," to me, implies some sort of dogma. If you think about it, all religions have rules of some sort. That's why I say I'm not religious - I think for myself, and I personally believe that even God doesn't have any "rules" It (I don't believe God is a male, as spirit transcends gender. Sorry if that offends you) wants you to follow, though you will just naturally be HAPPIER if you make certain choices in your life. ::hugs you:: You've said some things I've wanted to say, but in a more politer way than I would just because I'm a savage remember? I agree as well. I also don't understand what the big deal is about forcing people to worship in a man made building. If God or whomever is supposed to be everywhere why should you have to go someplace he/she didn't make? If the world was created by a higher form wouldn't you be giving a high compliment by worshipping in that sort of domain and respecting the earth especially if that's where life comes from to begin with? I thought it was really sad that a friend of my mom wanted to get married on the beach in Hawaii since she loves the earth and environment and all things created, but of course the priest thought that was a horrible dreadful thing and forced her to get married 'officially' in a church and she could do what she wants later. How sad. One of the things that got me to turn my back on the religion i was second baptized on (trust me on that, I was baptized Lutherin, sent to a Catholic school and they actually said I would not be allowed through the gates of Heaven since I didn't have the 'mark' of Catholic nor could I make my communion unless I get rebaptized really nice thing to say to a child)...anyway, my gram got super sick and was hospitalized for quite some time and bedridden after that. Of course she missed church for a few weeks even though she watched those services on Sundays on tv. Well, she went to confession after she got better and told the priest what happened to her and you know what he said to her? If she would have died during that time she would have went straight to hell because she missed so much church. Now you tell me, what the hell was that?  That's really sick and sad if you think about it. I realized then that stuff like that was full of bologna. I mean, if your creator is going to be so picky and unsympathetic towards one of his 'children' especially in a time of true need well, I want no part of that. A friend of mine not too long ago said he just feels that religion is just an organized cult and the more horror stories I hear about things like going to hell over something stupid or being forced to worship where THEY want you to well...feh...makes me glad I now have a way of life instead. You shouldn't fear your creator if you believe there is one. |
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Post by mushroom on Jun 24, 2004 13:18:27 GMT -5
Atheism is a belief, like theism. Theism is a belief, but it encompass many, many different religions. Christians, Jews, Muslims, some Wiccans, and probably others I've missed are all monotheists (a type of theist). Most of the ancient civilizations were polytheist (another type of theist): the Greeks, the Egyptians, the Germanic tribes, and many more. Also, you don't have to be religious to be a theist: Ember is a monotheist, from what she's said, and she doesn't consider herself religious. Atheism simply means a lack of belief in God and absolutely nothing more, not even the belief that no God or gods exist. Some atheists are even religious (most Buddhists are atheists; some Unitarians are atheists).
I'm sorry if it seems like I'm pressing an irrelevant point, but it's not right to call atheists religious when they simply aren't.
Could you please explain exactly what you mean? By default any person can follow any belief system without fear of discrimination by the government or any public organization. The only times "official" recognition can come into play are when beliefs require legal exemptions (for example, a refusal to serve in the Army despite a draft because of religious beliefs) or in things like tax exemptions for churches.
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Post by ghostision on Jun 24, 2004 19:04:41 GMT -5
The problem, in my opinion, of classifying atheism as a religion, is that it centers around the belief that there is a supreme being. For example, I don't believe in aliens. (Bad example, I know, but bear with me.) No one classifies that as a religion, even though a lot of other people do believe in them. To me, my disbelief in any god is no more different, than, well, my disbelief in anything else Classifying a disbelief in something as a religion, just because a lot of other people belief in it, well, that doesn't make too much sense to me.
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Post by Stal on Jun 25, 2004 9:39:04 GMT -5
Could you please explain exactly what you mean? By default any person can follow any belief system without fear of discrimination by the government or any public organization. The only times "official" recognition can come into play are when beliefs require legal exemptions (for example, a refusal to serve in the Army despite a draft because of religious beliefs) or in things like tax exemptions for churches. Simple. As religious definitions go in recognition from the US government, they now declare atheism to be a religion. I have the book where I learned of this on reserve at my library, so I'll get further information on it shortly. Also, somebody awhile back spoke of the Treaty of Tripoli. I will post an article of my research that blows the previous Treaty of Tripoli argument out of the water. Have a good day.  www.wallbuilders.com/resources/search/detail.php?ResourceID=5 |
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Post by Buddy on Jun 25, 2004 10:54:05 GMT -5
I believe that throughout all this, we've forgotten the main reason of this thread: whether or not it's a good idea to merge state with religon.
Okay, America may have been a Christian nation (not saying it was but, frakly, it doesn't make a difference either way - it's the here and now that matters, not then). So what? Does that make a difference? Should that even come into play?
America may have been a "Christian" nation at one time. Heck, it might even still be one today! It doesn't matter. America is open to everyone - always has, always should be. That, I believe, is a far more crucial principle to remember than what religon our founders may have held/considered America to hold.
By instituting prayer in school (Christian prayer, I assume), that's stating "This is the offical religon of our school". I can see few other things that follow America's number one principle (that anyone can come from anywhere and we'll still accept you, that America is a mesh of different cultures) than that.
You have the freedom to practice religon wherever you want, whenever you want. Why do we need it in school? What is this compulsive need to have school-led prayer? Someone, please, explain it to me! I jsut simply don't get it!
For all those that want prayer in school, consider this: what if the put prayer in school but, instead of Christian prayer, it was Muslim prayer, instead. I mean, hey! We can't forget the Muslims! If the Chrsitians get to pray, why not the Muslims?
Well, wouldn't you be unhappy about having to pray to a god other than yours?
That's the same way I would feel - having to pray to a god - accept another way of belief - other than mine.
Even after all this, I still doubt anyone sees my point of view...
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Post by Stal on Jun 25, 2004 11:08:35 GMT -5
But Buddy...you make it out to be a compulsory Christian prayer. That was never the case...if you didn't want to pray, you didn't have to, but you still had to have a silent respect for the prayer that was going on. It was called courtesy.
The Constitution grants freedom of religion. Not Freedom from religion.
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Post by Buddy on Jun 25, 2004 12:49:52 GMT -5
But if Atheism is a religon, then isn't prayer in school infringing on said religon, much like teaching evolution is infringing on someone elses?
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That's really sick and sad if you think about it. I realized then that stuff like that was full of bologna. I mean, if your creator is going to be so picky and unsympathetic towards one of his 'children' especially in a time of true need well, I want no part of that. A friend of mine not too long ago said he just feels that religion is just an organized cult and the more horror stories I hear about things like going to hell over something stupid or being forced to worship where THEY want you to well...feh...makes me glad I now have a way of life instead. You shouldn't fear your creator if you believe there is one. 
