I have a story I'd like to tell

[Omni]

I remembered something that I thought I should relay.

So I grew up in a family that taught that swearing isn't just inappropriate for children; it's inappropriate in general. The basic idea being that it's crude, creates a negative atmosphere, tends to show a lack of restraint, isn't necessary, and such.

I tend to go farther than most and even avoid substitute swears when possible. It's to the point that substitute swears can even feel awkward if I even consider using them.

That said, someone I know once told me that I was too timid, and that I should try to be more assertive and stand up for myself more. The way he did that was to play the role of the aggressor, throwing insults, lightly smacking me, and trying to get me to tell him off by using a particular swear word at him.

The insults and such didn't bother me as much as being put in that particular situation. But at any rate, I was already in tears before I'd even talked to him, and now I was shaking to boot. But I knew he wouldn't relent and let me go until I said what he asked, so... I tried. I honestly tried. But try as I might, I could hardly even get the first phoneme onto my lips. It was like my body refused to do it; I was actually incapable of saying what he wanted me to say.

After a few minutes of this, another word seemed to shoot from my heart from my lips, which it seemed I could hardly hold back if I'd tried:

“NO!!”

Thankfully, he considered it an appropriate substitute for what he wanted me to say... but what I was really objecting to was that he wanted me to even say it.

I bring this up because, while it's a dfiierent subject matter, I want you to be aware that there may be some who are so used to cis-hetero-normative things and had them trained into their psyche that calling a person by their preferred name or pronouns might not be a question of willingness, but capability. Even if they want to be nice and respect you, finding a neutral ground might be the closest thing they can manage.

Also, I suspect that if someone is genuinely transphobic (as in, being afraid of them), then I suspect that even being around someone who they know identifies as trans may cause them severe anxiety. And as with other forms of anxiety, telling them to just stop being so afraid and to change their behavior isn't going to have the desired effect.

[Gelquie]

(So, first off, this post seems like there's a lot of context that's missing that may have started this conversation. For the sake of a full discussion, it might benefit to include that? Albeit worded civilly, of course. Otherwise, people may be confused regarding where to start responding or what may have brought this up.)

Anyway, this topic seems to be on the subject of trans people in the LGBT+ community who go by a different identity than the one set up for them at birth, and thus chooses a new name for themselves and starts asking people to use different pronouns for them that match their identity, versus people who may not be used to this change, either because of brain plasticity or a culture that may discourage this sort of behavior?

I don't know if I got the topic as concisely as I could; if anyone would like to take a stab at it, go for it. I just want to have the topic clear here for posterity.

Also, one last reminder before I get into the meat of the post: Remember to be civil to each other in this discussion. If anyone uses personal attacks against any other member in this discussion, the mods will take quick action. If things keep devolving into fights, this thread will be locked.



Now then, my comments...

I don't think this is the same thing as not wanting to swear and someone forcing you to. When someone is forcing you to swear when you don't want to, then yes, they're being a jerk, and you have your right there to stand your ground. The point there is being taken to mean that this is how someone may feel when someone is telling another person to use their preferred pronouns? But I feel like that point may better fit the opposite of what you're trying to say.

Here's the thing with identities; they are fundamental to the person. The body someone was born into may not match how they think and how they identify themselves. But society will often take to it from the moment they are born because that is all those people have to work from. But that doesn't mean that works well for the person who feels that doesn't match who they are.

So the person may decide they want to fill the shoes of their identity and come out. But then there's pushback from society due to what they're used to, or their own preconceived ideas on gender identity. That's kind of where your metaphor can come in. They (let's call them A) want to use the terms that fit them best when someone refers to them, but then someone comes along (let's call them B) and refuses to, and uses terms against them that A doesn't like because it doesn't fit their identity. No matter how A tries to plead with B or work with them, B persists, using the pronouns that only reminds A that they're not being accepted or respected, and that maybe society won't either. It's a constant little reminder that happens constantly builds up, and they may feel like they don't belong and can't ever belong. And then comes the problems with feeling like someone can never belong without denying who they are entirely.

So when B is forcing A to face those things, and force them into the identity they don't want because they have their own ideas, that's what they're doing to trans people, and forcing them to try to conform to it although they deeply don't want to. That's where A feels in their heart, in response to B's insistence: "NO!!"

That aside, the way trans people feel when they're constantly being accepted or respected to the point where they feel they can't belong... I know that feeling. I wouldn't wish it upon my worst enemy.

(Although maybe there's more to it than that. I can't speak on everything as I don't know if I'm trans myself, but we have a few trans forumers that can maybe clarify on a few points.)


Here's the other thing I want to get to... The best neutral ground is the one that hurts the least amount of people. But what may count as a neutral ground to one person may make the other go "well wait a minute, that still hurts me!". That needs to be listened to. And sometimes there isn't really a good neutral ground if the issue is something that hurts them in general. It's like if you ask someone not to punch you, and they say "let's compromise; I'll slap you instead."

In this case, what's being asked at minimum is that trans people have their identities respected by using their preferred names and pronouns. They know it may take some time to learn and get used to. I used to be pretty bad at it myself (old habits die hard, as you know), but then I got the hang of it after a lot of practice and exposure with trans people. Using new names and pronouns is a learnable skill. If you mess up on one occasion while learning, most people will accept an "oops, sorry," and a correction before moving on in the conversation.
Going the other way, asking someone to accept an identity they don't want... That's not a skill to learn. That's asking someone to throw a portion of their identity away, for what, to them, feels like someone else's convenience.

To me, the former--learning someone's new pronouns and names (if they change the latter)--seems much easier to do, and to me, that's not too much to ask. People can get the hang of it.

That's my initial thoughts on the issue anyway. In summary, asking to respect pronouns and names is asking people to respect their fundamental identity. Doing so is something that can be learned, and having something drilled into one's pscyhe can be... well, undrilled. It may take effort if you're not used to it, but it's definitely possible.


Also, the word 'transphobic' may be a bit of a misnomer. While if you take the literal definition, it can mean "afraid of people who are trans", it's more commonly used to mean "are unable to accept the idea of someone being trans and thus not respecting their identity." I do understand the confusion there, though; words. But that's what it's supposed to mean.

[Breakingchains]

...I've read this post over a few times and I could be totally off-base, but I'm getting the general vibe that you're less striking up a debate for the forum at large, and more defending yourself (or someone else) because it's been called to your attention in some other context that you (or they) might be unintentionally using transphobic language, and this is making you feel upset. Am I anywhere close to the mark?

It's not at all my intention to attack or shut you down. I think it's healthy to be able to discuss these things freely. And I mean, on the one hand, I do know what you mean about being trained in what language you use--I was raised in an environment that trained me to hate myself for my sexuality, because 'murica. And I was cis and straight-passing, which meant an easier time of it. Being transgender? That was barely even understood or acknowledged. We didn't talk about it. If we did, stereotypes were presented as truth. Unkind words were used. It was Something We Don't See In These Parts. Etcetera. So you can imagine that it was for some time very hard for me to wrap my head around transgender issues.

But... when I reached college and actually finally met some transgender people (or, at least, ones who weren't in the closet) I still did my absolute best not to misgender them. It was difficult at first, and sure I messed up. Heck, the first time I had to correct myself and apologize, my face was on fire and my fight-or-flight was going, because we can't just auto-delete the nonsense our parents drill into us. But I also recognized that this discomfort doesn't amount to anything compared to the discomfort of being misgendered. My pain is nothing, nada, zero, goose egg, and my social brainwashing is my business to deal with and my problem to sort out. I still had to correct myself and I still had to apologize, because in this context my discomfort didn't matter.

I realize that this might sound a bit harsh, that sometimes we need to just ignore our own concerns, but there's potentially a lot at stake. Your "friend" in this story was being kind of abusive, but you're not under that kind of pressure here. It's just a matter of being sensitive and choosing to use language that you know will not do harm.

There is a lot of reprogramming that virtually all of us need to do, because our society likes to train us to be awful to arbitrary groups in arbitrary ways. And it sucks and it hurts, but it's our responsibility to do it.

[Crystal]

Ooh, I wanted to reply to this earlier.

I agree that there's a lot of context missing and I'm not quite sure what the topic is. If I recall correctly, the original issue was whether or not a compromise in the form of a gender-neutral name was acceptable to a trans person if the person compromising has beliefs against being transgender (and I'm not here to argue the morality of that) and is struggling with reconciling the friendship with their belief. So if Samuel now wanted to be known as Samantha, would the gender-neutral "Sam" be acceptable as a compromise for a devout, conservative coworker? Is a friendship worth saving in that case, or must the person be completely accepting in order to be accepted? Is there a middle ground?


This thread seems to be more organized around using the preferred pronouns of a transgender person, which usually I would say is just common politeness. I'll admit it's definitely kind of a pain in the neck. I can generally keep my trans friends straight because they present as the gender they want to be identified as, but my friends and acquaintances on the spectrum can drive me a little crazy with pronouns. Some want to be referred to as "e", some as "it", some as just a short version of their name, some have gone through multiple identity changes, and some are still looking. I often don't know these people really well enough to remember their names, let alone their preferred pronoun and gender identity, but am wary of asking (although it's often considered a compliment!) as people can be touchy about it. I've witnessed at least one well-meaning person put their foot in their mouth and then be ripped into by liberal moral guardians. In my grouchier, honester days I find myself wishing that I don't have to care about it.

On the other hand, I also know people who would deliberately choose to call Samantha "Samuel", and I consider that to be rather disrespectful and rude, given that you're ignoring a direct request from the person in order to rub your disagreement in their face.

So basically, using preferred pronouns is the polite, professional thing to do, regardless of whether or not you agree with someone's lifestyle choices. I mostly make a best-effort and leave it at that, making sure to walk softly around the topic with LGBT friends on the prickly side. Now, if we were trying to reconcile people with opposing beliefs, that would be quite another story. Plenty of people consider their religious, cultural or political affiliations deeply embedded into their identity, just as much as gender, and then where does that leave us?

[Huntress]

My grouchier and honester days make up most of my life, which is why I've adopted the stance of "extreme caution by way of carpet bombing".

(it's one I apply to most walks of life, but you probably knew that by now.)

My sitch with genders and gender pronouns in particular is special, in that I come from a language background with no gender differentiation to speak of. Estonian has a few gender-specific differentiations (such as king and queen) but for the most part, we use one pronoun for everything third-person and just about all words that get gender-specific differentiation in English (such as policeman-policewoman, chairman-chairwoman) only have one Estonian word that applies to any and all genders. It's all very nice and straightforward. Gender just doesn't come up. It'll get discussed the same way it gets in the Western world when people get confused about someone's gender presentation, but the small everyday issues with using a gender pronoun (which, when you think about it, really come up a lot in any given sentence) are completely moot.

Whiiich screws me over when speaking English, because as far as my brain is concerned, the difference between he and she is arbitrary, to speak nothing of any extra pronouns added to the mix. It's not much of an issue in writing, because I habitually reread all of my posts like three times before posting, quick IM convos essentially don't happen (partly for lack of time and partly for this same issue) but in spoken English, I can easily flip-flop between 'he' and 'she' three times in one sentence when talking about my own mother. (My mom's English is even worse, it's a rare occurrence when she gets a gender pronoun right. She can't even keep 'she' and 'her' apart. We consider her a lost cause xD)

All of the above is an extremely cumbersome and long-winded way to backpedal and explain myself whenever I slip up with a pronoun. Which, y'know, can happen every few sentences, and I talk fast. If you were touchy about gender pronouns and heard me constantly slip up and backpedal and apologize and slip up again, would you honestly believe that I'm having slipup after slipup? I don't think I would. I'd think that the person is doing that on purpose, and angry pricklies are sure to follow. And even if people accept my good intent and general messy foreign brain, each of those little instances of misgendering would still feel like a tiny jab, wouldn't it?

Thus, to avoid both other people getting hurt and I myself being hurt by either prickly hurt people or other people being prickly on behalf of said prickly hurt people (try saying that fast three times), I just avoid the issue altogether. If I know a person to be outside the cis spectrum in any way, I do my darndest to minimize contact. In other words, the compromise and effort discussed here just doesn't get brought into the picture. No effort, no harm, no foul.

Is that better or worse than actively trying to reconcile two opposing stances and causing harm along the way? Well, I myself rather feel like I'm being more of a prat this way than anyone trying (and failing?) with genuine effort, but at the same time my approach probably causes less active harm. Probably. I like what GLQ said up there with neutral ground being what causes the least harm, but going on my own example, that seems to mean that the two sides would just need to stay separate.

My point with all this is that intent is the really hard part to pin down, but also seems to be the pivotal point here.

[Mostly Harmless (flufflepuff)]

I have two posts I want to make in this one. The first is from another forumer who wishes to remain anonymous, and I'm respecting their rights.

"Trans people have the right to believe they are xxxgender. People who disagree with trans people have the right to believe people who think they are trans people are absolutely cis-gender. Asking someone to 'kindly respect my preferred pronoun' has as much credence as asking someone to 'kindly respect that I believe you are made in God's image and you are born who you are', etc. No one should be forced to sacrifice their beliefs... people can debate back and forth and try to convince someone any which way to any such ends, but in the end people should be free to believe whatever, so long as people treat each other respectfully and acknowledge there are sometimes major differences between people."



ok, now time for my post:

I'm mostly with this person, but differ because I was in your shoes, too. I come from a similar background, and a hellish middle school in which students thought it was a good idea to get someone who never swears to swear before letting them pass.

While the person above(within?) seems to be ok with a stalemate, I myself am not so sure about that. From your tone you sound like you want to avoid trouble. I'm the same way. As Hunty said, you could minimize contact.

Actually using the pronouns or even at first just using the person's name over and over ('ts how I got my feet wet while still learning--but is that a microaggression too?) doesn't change your belief or what you think. You still got it, Omni. It just provides a comforting feeling of respect for the person. I'm not telling you to suck it up and move on, or even do anything. It's just something to keep in mind.

There is learning to be done from this discussion, especially from my end. I look forward to seeing where it goes.

[Coaster]

My response is probably on a different track than most of the other ones posted already, but from my experience (as someone who was raised in a very straight-laced home where issues of gender and sexuality and curse words in general were dismissed in hushed tones and where in fact I was yelled at for being too timid), it generally seems like being unable to use a particular word or phrase (short of pronounciation issues, speech impediments, and the like) tends to come down to a mental hang-up, stemming from trauma or upbringing or social conventions or whatever else. It's one thing to say a phrase in an academic sense for the purpose of saying it, but it's another thing entirely to put meaning behind it and in a way that intends to communicate the plain meaning. I used to be in a situation where the thought of saying a swear word was scandalous, but after a while of thinking about things, I still avoid them when possible (out of respect, out of a desire for more creative insults, etc.) but other than that, it's just another string of phonemes, much like a curse word in a foreign language might be before you realize its meaning.

So I would argue that it really would come down to an issue of beliefs and practice (and in some cases, memory, like if you're trying to learn someone's name or pronouns or the concept of gendered pronouns to begin with), not of physical capability, because at the very least it's possible to train yourself to dissociate an utterance of words from any honest meaning.

[Omni]

To clear up any confusion, the point behind the story wasn't about the opinion of what's being asked. The point is rather that I know, from firsthand experience, that there are circumstances where someone might not be able to say what they're asked to say, even if they think they should.

On a different note... I was realizing the other night that my hypothetical person with too much anxiety might not be as hypothetical as I thought. I was realizing that I know it's true because, even if not as severe as I described, it's personal. I get anxiety over such subjects.

It basically started around a decade ago when I said something that I didn't expect would be a problem at all. But I still got some major backlash. At first, I was confused because I didn't understand what was being said, but it wasn't long before I realized that there was hostility going on. And at least from what I remember, it seemed like it wasn't handled well. And there was one comment after where... well, I never genuinely wanted to strangle someone before, or since.

It basically started because I was sheltered. I honestly had no idea what I was in for. Aaand it didn't stop there... After a number of incidents, my confidence had a number done on it.

Interestingly, my anxiety doesn't seem to be about being around LGBTQ people so much as discussing various things. Also interestingly, starting a discussion seems to be one thing (esp online). It's the thought of seeing what comes after that triggers my anxiety. Even writing this has me anxious. Even looking at the thread title was hard. Even though I've been told about the rule GLQ laid down, the idea of reading the responses is hard.

I just get so afraid that something innocent, or meant to be polite, will be seen as an attack and I'll get hit by a wave of backlash, being called a transphobe or something. Because it has happened before. I'm afraid I won't be able to have a friendly argument because it will turn into a heated argument when I don't intend to. I don't know if it's just because I haven't been shown how to do otherwise, but I'm not sure how to discuss things without something being seen as an attack. And I don't want to just keep quiet all the time.

And yes, thinking about the names and pronouns issue can cause a degree of anxiety. I haven't really been in that situation yet (esp. IRL), but I really do question if I'd be able to call a trans person by their preferred name or pronoun.

I don't want to be disrespectful. I'm just not sure I'm capable at this time. And since I've more-recently been hit with something like bipolar + anxiety, it would probably be especially hard on high-anxiety days. I think I could use a short, neutral nickname in place of a pronoun with a tolerable level of anxiety, and maybe work my way up from there. But if someone insists otherwise... what could I do?

[Coaster]

One way I've heard this explained is that a friendly argument for one person can be, for another person, a defense of the nature of their own existence, particularly in aspects that have caused a lot of pain and trauma in the past and which are still ongoing. The worst case of losing an argument about something you don't have a stake in yourself (short of being wildly inflammatory and getting banned from that platform or somesuch) is that you have perspectives to evaluate for later, whereas the consequences of said arguments going the other way can, and often do, lead to discrimination and even death (for example, considering the number of trans women killed every year because they're "really men" and just being "deceptive"). The stakes aren't even and never were to begin with.

On the other hand, things like being gaslit, or suffering from a state of mental health that doesn't allow you to be okay having the conversation, can make it really hard to have a civil discussion about things in the first place. But in the end, regardless of whether a debate is started or not, it really is each person's responsibility to do their own research, evaluate their own and others' experiences, and come to a conclusion from there, making sure they're at least well-informed and have good reason to be secure in their perspective.