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Post by Joker on Feb 12, 2013 16:30:40 GMT -5
I...never got any allowance whatsoever. I was just expected to help with the housework. xDD My grandparents would give me a little money sometimes for Christmas, but other than that I never had any. When I first heard kids talking about their "allowance" in school I was just like "....what's that? You get PAID for washing dishes and cleaning things?"
I will say that never having much money has made me quite smart with finances - I was taught as a child to think of $5, or for that matter even $1, as a pretty big deal.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2013 17:46:23 GMT -5
I once knew a kid who got $100 a week for doing nothing. He just got them, and his parents didn't care what he spent them on. To me and to everything I've been taught during my years at uni, this just screams 'neglect'. Edit: Neglect is a kind of abuse. It took me a long time to learn to accept that. I'd personally be slow to label something like that neglect. Distant, sure. A bad idea, maybe. But please realize that can come with some pretty serious connotations. I disagree. They are two different things, even if they do seem the same. Neglect is when you do not give the proper care of a person. Abuse is maltreatment, physically as well as mentally. If I send Cookie to daycare during a frosty day without warm clothes, it's neglect. It's when you forget to do something because it doesn't really rank high on your list of priorities. Aka. you don't care. But if I were to say... punish her bad behavior by hitting her, or sending her off to bed without food. That is abuse. Intentional misuse of power. Big difference. And of course, you don't learn about finances through your allowance alone. I'm just saying that it can help, and is definitely better than just getting stuffed $100 in your pocket every week and your parents are like: "Go buy whatever." Which is, neglect... because they don't care.
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Post by M is for Morphine on Feb 12, 2013 18:02:21 GMT -5
www.totalcriminaldefense.com/crimes-a-z/against-children/child-neglect/Abuse is maltreatment, in your own words, and neglect is a form of maltreatment. Neglect can cause serious emotional and physical damage. It can frequently lead to death. I was a victim of childhood neglect. I will not go into details. I really, really do not appreciate you equating what a went through as a child to a kid who's parents give him too much money because they have trouble relating to him. That sort of reduction of neglect makes it hard for people who were abused in this way to come to terms to the fact that they were abused at all. I'll have to back out of this discussion now, it's getting far too personal. Have a good debate.
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Post by Coaster on Feb 12, 2013 19:47:00 GMT -5
I think we can all agree, at least, that the act of simply handing one's kids significant (relative to the family) sums of money without any responsibility, commitment, or the like attached to it is a bad idea.
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Post by Komori on Feb 12, 2013 20:15:53 GMT -5
Well, letting your kid buy whatever they want really isn't irresponsible parenting. I mean, if you are a total dictator about what they can spend their own money on, as soon as you're out of the picture (ie, college) they go and blow money on all the fun stuff they had wanted to as a kid but never got the chance to. That's where you see those kids with a huge library of Xbox games and no textbooks.
See, as a parent, you can use your words, and not just hand down laws from on high. Find out what they want to buy, try to talk them out of bad purchases, encourage them to save part of their money. Ask them to think ahead; is there any large expenses coming up that you'd like to be able to have money for? The next game console, a trip with friends, a dance?
I say, if they want to buy stupid stuff, then let them. They're just kids; they have to learn to make their own mistakes.
But ultimately, parenting can't change everything. My sister and I had the same money situations, the same money-education from family, and I'm careful with my money and it burns a hole in my sister's pocket. Some traits just happen, no matter what.
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Post by Stal on Feb 13, 2013 3:32:03 GMT -5
While I still generally disagree with the severity of what Leo suggests, perhaps I could offer that it'a just semantics? That she speaks more to carelessness than full on neglect? Otherwise, I'm with Teow on that neglect is a much different and more severe circumstance--one that is systemic and ongoing in multiple ways than merely a couple things here or there that could be tightened up. I would prefer to think it's merely semantics and a matter of how one interprets the word as opposed to common definitions. But I'll let Leo speak for herself there.
Komo is correct. Personality has a lot to do with it. My parents let all my siblings have full control of our finances. As a teen, my sister was commonly buying things with money clothes-wise that I couldn't comprehend. But she didn't spend money as often as me so she had more saved up for what I saw as extravagance. My parents would sometimes question the wisdom of what I was spending my money on and not always agree with it, but let me make my choices. (As they did with all the kids).
But we all turned out differently. I'm an accountant/financial analyst by trade. My sister has fallen into a purchasing job at a company, though is less accounting inclined and more relationships and customer interaction. My brother is business oriented but not accounting, with a focus on hospitality and restaurant. And our personal spending philosophies have turned out wildly different over the years and gone through different paths.
Yet we all got the same situation with allowances being given, with mostly monetary independence, etc.
My parents always said that the reason they didn't connect our allowance with chores was they didn't want us to see the chores as anything short of a complete obligation or to be given the mentality that we should be paid for things we should be doing as is (room upkeep, etc). It was something we owed as was--not something they should deign to pay us for doing, considering they already pay for us in many other ways. I personally find that view quite accurate, looking back as an economist, though it didn't seem to matter to me then. (I'm on call for chores all the time, and I get paid a set amount on these days... Salary, basically, the way I look at it now).
Money and how people use it is all very interesting to me. But then again, that's also why I got a degree in Econ as was.
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Post by Gav on Feb 13, 2013 11:35:47 GMT -5
I was in the 'given pocket money without having to do anything' camp - in fact, back home, there are many well-to-do families that hired maids to do household chores for them, so there were many kids that grew up with the same treatment. Yet I'm actually fairly frugal (my whole family being into business may be part of it? Who knows.), and I doubt I'd be the only one from my generation. I think it boils down to personality more than anything, like Komori and Stal have said - I'm sure upbringing has an influence, but it may be less than it seems.
Either way, people are going to learn how to manage their own money when they eventually come into it on their own - some may start early and just end up horribly, while others only learn when they go to college and come off fairly well. It all depends on the individual.
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Post by Huntress on Feb 13, 2013 15:56:08 GMT -5
See, as a parent, you can use your words, and not just hand down laws from on high. Find out what they want to buy, try to talk them out of bad purchases, encourage them to save part of their money. Ask them to think ahead; is there any large expenses coming up that you'd like to be able to have money for? The next game console, a trip with friends, a dance? Curiously, my parents did that, minus the allowance part. I didn't get any allowance (although I usually had some money to go around that I got not-even-sure-how; mostly I think it piled up because whenever the folks sent me to the store to get groceries or something, I got to keep the change.) Whenever I wanted something that was bigger than, say, an ice cream or a bag of chips, I had to reason with them. Do I really want this? Why do I want this? Sometimes I got what I wanted, and sometimes I didn't, and that's how life was and I didn't have a problem with it. I'm pretty frugal with my money, but then again my income isn't very secure (translation is project-based, so once I send off a finished piece, it's anyone's guess whether I get the next gig the next day or a month down the line) so if I wasn't, it'd come to bite me pretty fast xD It's true that people learn one way or another, some just learn it in harder ways.
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Post by Fj0rd on Feb 13, 2013 22:12:50 GMT -5
Technically I got allowance as a kid, not connected to doing chores or anything, but I very rarely actually saw any of it because my parents took paying-for-my-library-fines out of my allowance money. >.> And I aaaalways had library fines. I don't know that that taught me anything except to be more careful about renewing/returning books when it was actually my money...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2013 15:23:59 GMT -5
I'm sorry if it got too personal, Teow. But I too was a victim of both neglect -and- abuse for 18 years. Plus I have an education that backs me up on what I say. I've been working with kids for 10 years. So I'm not just throwing it out there for the fun of it. But I'll leave it alone, since it kinda tracks off from the topic at hand and I do not wish to make you feel like that.
In the future, please do not hesitate to say when you're commenting on a touchy subject, and maybe just withdraw sooner, to protect yourself. I was pretty sensitive for a long time since September 20, 2007 so I just stayed away from anything that related to 'rape' when I could.
And as far as allowance goes, I'll elaborate on what I meant:
I believe that connecting chores to allowance will give your offspring a good basis for starting to understand economics. Of course, it's not a foolproof theory. And, I also believe that raising your offspring to do chores without allowance is a good thing, because it'll teach them to do things without asking for anything in return. A good portion of both might be the best thing.
But it's a generalization of course. But it's still a good basis for teaching the right thing.
... I just really wish they'd teach private economy in public schools over here as a mandatory subject. xP Too much debt and credit card bills because people between 18 and 28 (an estimate) just can't handle money right. BUT that's another subject. Sorry! xD
But I'll recap: I do not think parents should pay for their adult children if they have an income and stay at their parents'. That, in my eyes, is robbing the kid from learning to get the proper experiences that will prepare them for standing on their own one day. Again... a generalization. I know that not all will turn out like that. But as a parent it's better to be safe than sorry when it comes to raising a world citizen.
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Post by Huntress on Feb 15, 2013 4:31:50 GMT -5
But I'll recap: I do not think parents should pay for their adult children if they have an income and stay at their parents'. That, in my eyes, is robbing the kid from learning to get the proper experiences that will prepare them for standing on their own one day. With the underlying assumption that the kid's income is actually sufficient for living on their own. Because if they have an income that, upon moving to their own place, would be enough for rent and utilities and a bag of ramen per week, a fun experience of independence would that make xP And if they live at home with said income and pay a certain amount to the parents from it, they save up that much less - and take that much longer to actually have the finances to move out. Now, if they get the Scandinavian sort of income (that's an actual term here) that would allow them a comfortable life with all bills paid and proper food on the table and a bit saved up and are still not moving out, the issue is likely psychological anyway (and probably happened way earlier somewhere). At which point it's personal preference whether you'll kick them out at once or half-nudge them by charging them for staying, or some other option. But if the goal is the kid's independence and learning to manage on their own, I'd sooner encourage them to move out on insufficient funds and pay them extra myself (cover half the rent or something) so that they'd altogether have enough to live on and get decent food without killing their health in the process. So if they blow the budget on stupid things, they'll assign themselves to the ramen regime. Cos face it, when your kid lives at home and pays you for it, you still won't let them starve.
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Post by Komori on Feb 15, 2013 9:13:26 GMT -5
But as a parent it's better to be safe than sorry when it comes to raising a world citizen. Yeah, that's presuming your method is superior to the alternative, which is presumptuous indeed. That everyone who turned out alright on the "parents not charging rent or making kids do chores for allowance" side of parenting just lucked out. Like Huntress suggested, charging rent on a kid even when they have a job isn't always the best option. I've got friends who have to stay with their family while they work fulltime. They'd love to be able to save up and be independent, but paying rent to their folks bleeds their savings. And I certainly don't see how that's encouraging them to be independent. Suggesting that there's only one "safe" way to guarantee someone becomes a proper world citizen is pretty.... I guess vain? But I suppose that's not new; parents always believe their way is right to everyone else's wrongness.
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Post by Gav on Feb 15, 2013 10:57:39 GMT -5
Guys, remember not to make things get personal - you're free to disagree on each other's points, but as far as things like parenting techniques go, which can be such a hotly contested thing and has an impossibly wide level of variation, probably best not to start throwing barbs if you can help it, if what another person doing is not obviously harmful (like doing drugs, etc. You know, the obvious). I know that's part of what this whole debate is about, but if you think a point you're going to make is going to be a personal, subjective one, tread carefully.
Just my two cents on the whole thing, that's all.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2013 11:57:18 GMT -5
I'm not sure if you misunderstand me there, Komori... or if I'm misunderstanding you. Could you elaborate on "Yeah, that's presuming your method is superior to the alternative, which is presumptuous indeed. That everyone who turned out alright on the "parents not charging rent or making kids do chores for allowance" side of parenting just lucked out. " ?
(Language barrier, sorry. Hope I don't come off as being dense.)
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Post by Crystal on Feb 15, 2013 12:31:43 GMT -5
Guys, remember not to make things get personal - you're free to disagree on each other's points, but as far as things like parenting techniques go, which can be such a hotly contested thing and has an impossibly wide level of variation, probably best not to start throwing barbs if you can help it, if what another person doing is not obviously harmful (like doing drugs, etc. You know, the obvious). I know that's part of what this whole debate is about, but if you think a point you're going to make is going to be a personal, subjective one, tread carefully. Just my two cents on the whole thing, that's all. I'm continually amazed by just how many of my friends do recreational drugs, like pot and hookah (and occasionally some of the harder stuff, like coke), and insist that it's just a fun thing to do, like drinking or smoking, and possibly actually a better option than smoking, seeing as it doesn't coat your lungs with tar. I would be interested in hearing what people thought about that, but it seems like a topic for a whole new debate. About moving out, I would frankly still be staying with my parents if I worked close to home, even earning a generous salary. I enjoy living with my parents and they enjoy having me around. I admit there are some things I'll miss, like bringing boys home, staying out all hours of the night, and being able to walk around the house in my underwear, but I just really like my family.
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