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Post by Gelquie on Sept 29, 2012 0:49:24 GMT -5
Each family does their own different thing. But after having a conversation on this topic, I've come to think how much a parent pays for their child affects how the grown-up child will behave in their life.
For one example, there is the family that never pays for their children after they turn 18. (Or whatever age a country considers a child to be a legal adult.) The children in question usually go into some sort of work immediately and find a place to live. The children may not necessarily go to college right away, unless their parents were nice enough to save up a college fund for them or if the kids tried to save up a fund themselves. This tactic gets them used to that kind of life early on, and is usually the kind of life children eventually lead. But it can also throw kids right into the fray of life, sometimes before they're ready.
Then there is the family that will provide for anything the adult child needs and will allow the person to stay at their parents' house indefinitely. The person pretty much has their needs taken care of. This does not necessarily mean that they get everything they want (everyone has their budgets), but they may not have to rush to go and live on their own.
There's obviously some ground in-between these that has variations or different types; these are just examples. There's no right or wrong answer when it comes to this, and answers may vary depending on the situation. But this is a general scale between between making your adult kids be completely on their on and providing your adult kids with everything they need.
What, in your opinion, is a good balance between these two extremes when it comes to parenting? How much should a parent provide for their kids when their children reach adulthood?
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Post by Nova on Sept 29, 2012 1:02:07 GMT -5
Well there needs to be a medium between the two extremes. On one hand, you kick your child out at 18 like you said, they might not be ready and stressed out and depending on their job or could get laid off, they might just end up on the streets (if the parents don't take them back in). But if the parents let their child(ren) poach off them for many years, they're not going to learn the lifeskills they need to advance in life.
My parents (before their separation, I'm not sure how it would work now) had a good system that I agreed with. After graduating from high school, you either a) go to university/college or b) work and save up money. If you're going to school, you won't have to pay rent since you're already in major debt and working extremely hard to make ends meet (like vehicle maintenance, gas, school materials etc.) If you're working and still living at home, you have to pay rent (not as expensive as living on your own, probably like 200 dollars a month or something I think.. we never talked numbers) to help pay for the food/bills you're contributing to. And if you want to move out after school, you can do that and the door is always open if you decide to come back home.
After high school, the child is essentially learning to wean off their parents support and be able to take care of themselves, but it's a delicate process. You cut them off they might drown, but if you do everything for them and they never have to take responsibility they're not going anywhere and all the sudden you have a 40 year old child in your basement. You need to give some support for your child, but you can't give them nothing or everything.
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Post by Gelquie on Sept 29, 2012 1:26:15 GMT -5
I fully agree that there needs to be a medium between the two. Though I find it hard to pick out. Say a kid pays their rent to their parents all the time and chooses to always stay at home. Is this something to be discouraged so as to allow the kid to eventually reach independence?
My family is not a very good example of how do this, I'm afraid. In fact, my family raised me and my siblings closer to the "provide everything" extreme. Which makes my life right now an easy life financially. And I don't agree with it, as I know it hasn't been good for developing a sense of responsibility that's absolutely needed in an adult life. I can feel it. I'm still dependent on them, actually, even if I live away from them. (College, but still.) Since they won't enforce much beyond "don't spend thousands of dollars on this without asking", I have to enforce things on my own. My plan is to hopefully stop becoming financially dependent on them once I settle into something after college, such as grad school. But it's going to take a lot of willpower since I have to keep the better idea of how to manage myself in mind as opposed to what I'm being encouraged to do. And I suspect that I'm now going to have to learn a few lessons the hard way.
My personal opinion is that I don't think a kid should be booted out the door onto the street without much preparation. But I do think they should be encouraged to reach independence and live on their own, and for their parents to help them reach that goal. Of course, "how" is a larger question. It's a difficult balance between being too mean to the kids and being too nice to the kids. Even if one doesn't go to the extremes, I think that if there's not enough enforcement, a kid may still slip and still have some dependency on them that's beyond familial attachment.
I will admit that my opinion on the matter isn't finished, though.
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Post by Draco on Sept 29, 2012 3:20:00 GMT -5
Well I got out of High School and went straight to college. College was nearby, so I stayed at home. During that time and now, I've had one job that only lasted about half a year. When I had the job, I paid rent, about half my check went to my parents, more on some checks.
Most of my stuff is paid for me, but I do have to do most of the house work myself, with only a little help (no matter how much I'm online, I'm still doing tons of work around the house XD). I don't even get an allowance... Every now and then I might get tossed a few bucks, but that's it. Since my job ended, I've pretty much just been living off what I saved, and still trying to find a job.
I don't really care how easy people say it is to get a job. It's not that easy -_- I'm told to go down to the place to ask for job. I do that and they tell me to just go online. Most people don't seem to understand that most places don't take walk ins anymore, yet I'm told to do that all the time. Then I apply and never hear from them. I call them, and they say it's being processed or some other excuse.
Even if I managed to get a job, chances are I can't just move out right away, most places around here are pretty expensive, even for a dump of a shack or apartment. (my house is cheaper rent and utilities then most places)
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Post by Huntress on Sept 29, 2012 7:04:35 GMT -5
After high school, the child is essentially learning to wean off their parents support and be able to take care of themselves, but it's a delicate process. You cut them off they might drown, but if you do everything for them and they never have to take responsibility they're not going anywhere and all the sudden you have a 40 year old child in your basement. You need to give some support for your child, but you can't give them nothing or everything. This. If the parents cut you off immediately at 18, they're basically saying that they have no vested interest in how you go on. 18 is the age when college life is just starting, and a college degree is the make-or-break in today's jobmarket. Leave the kid to his own devices to juggle a job and college (if he finds a job) and he's pretty likely to either drop out of one (likely college, since a job is immediate money and college is immediate debt with money maaaaybe down the road) or just half-bake both and not be good at either. My parents are hellbent on education. When I went to university, they footed the bill for dorm rent so that I could focus fully on the studies (got state-paid education and a scholarship that I used to cover food). So I did, and graduated in time. Right into the recession, so I spent the following year mostly jobless and doing odd translation gigs living at home. If they'd kicked me out then, they'd have kicked me out into no job, no income and no place to live and what's the benefit in that? Then I became a teacher. Teacher salary here amounts to something that you can technically live on in ("exist" is a more accurate word >>) but if I'd gotten a place of my own, I wouldn't have saved up a red cent. Which kinda loses the point of getting a job in the first place. So I still lived at home, commuted daily, wished blazing fire upon all self-entitled brats and saved up a chunk that I used to fund that US roadtrip of mine and subsequently moving out of the house. Right now it's my Backup Money to fill gaps I can't cover with my monthly earnings. And moving out is expensive, folks. All of a sudden you'll need Stuff. Small things that add up. Toilet cleaner and plates and mops and towels and clothesirons and drying racks and laundry baskets and all those things that your parents always had and you always took for granted but once you start building a life of your own, you'll find you need it all if not at once, then within a very small time bracket. When I was a student, I tided myself over with a lot of temporary crap, but now I'm moved out proper-like and when you do that, you start to want things that last. At which point the parents said, "As long as we earn three times as much as you, we'll help you pay for your stuff. Once you start earning more than us, you'll help us pay for our stuff." And that's the standing agreement in the family for a few generations now, and that's how it works for us. (Although while I've had financial backup pretty much all my life, I'm somehow still a hopeless scrooge. Dunno how that happened. But it's definitely made it easier for me to manage my own money. So hm, it's less about how much support the parents give and more about how aware they raise you to be about money, or somesuch?)
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Post by Celestial on Sept 29, 2012 8:10:19 GMT -5
I live with my parents and they pay for pretty much anything I need/want with no intention of cutting me off for now. I am very self-consious and almost ashamed of this fact since it makes me feel like a huge mooch. Doesn't help that a lot of people I know at university are struggling with their rent and their bills and have to work while I coast along. >> However, they have both vetoed my search for a part-time job while I am in university, saying I should focus on my studies for now instead. Which, I have to admit, is the right thing to do. They both have well-paying jobs and it is enough to support all of us comfortably so why should I needlessly stress myself trying to find and keep a job on top of my courses? Doesn't help the guilt but it is logical. However, I do try to have some financial responsability and not spend too much money and I do ask if an expense comes up because I am very aware that this bounty will not last forever. It's likely that after I graduate, they will keep supporting me as long as I don't have a job so I will have to drive myself to find one (which I most certainly will, considering my current guilt and how that will mushroom when I don't have the excuse of studies). But I know that if they had kicked me out at 18, I would have most certainly not been able to make it.
Now, personal stories out of the way, I am very grateful to them for supporting me and I don't think it's right for somebody to kick their child out as soon as they reach 18 because somebody of that age does not have as much experience as their parents or a soil base to build on. Furthermore, it seems very callous to me, almost as though the parents only cared for the child because it is expected of them and get rid of them at the first moment they can. They might somehow be able to survive in a good economy when jobs are plentiful but in a recession such as this one, cutting somebody off when they have nowhere solid to stand and expecting them to face the world and thrive is foolish and selfish. If you can support your offspring, try to support them. That said, teaching them financial responsibility and managing money is very much a good thing. Parents should prepare their child for the real world and only let them go when they believe they are ready for it. It's a difficult balance to strike though, which is where teaching the kid to be responsible earlier in life will certainly help but if somebody is a good parent, they would probably be doing so anyway and financial responsibility is just a logical extension of that.
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Post by Chao on Sept 29, 2012 8:15:37 GMT -5
In Germany responsibility for a child does not simply end with the child reaching the age of majority. The parents are to support the child during their first job training. Which, depending on the job, can mean that the parents have to support a child till the age of 28 in case the child is studying medicine. If the parents don't have the financial means, state will help out. But parents simply refusing to support their child will not work out. The child is then entitled to apply to social department and social department will get the money back from the parents.
University degree is not crucial here to get a job, but it's often seen as enabling you to get the better-paying jobs (if you study the right thing and/or get lucky). Also university fees usually are only around 500 EUR per semester and those cover administrative fees and often include public transport ticket, so it's not really much (even though it's discussed as being too high here a lot...). So a lot of people who don't know what they want to do after school first choose university. Which led to some universities now charging extra fees for those who study ever so long (e.g. Chemical Technology you can finish within 8 semesters, realistic is to add half to this, so within 12 semsters everyone should be able to finish without being all stressed out and after that you pay extra for long-time study).
I liked the system my parents had: They insisted that we at least attend the first ten years of school, as this enables you to apply for apprenticeship for some of the nicer middle-paying jobs. Like bank clerk. If we wanted to continue school and be eligible for university, they would support us in that. After this we had to clearly state what we wanted to do, if it was university, we had to name the degree program which should be a sensible one at the end of which we could get a job. So studying archeology would not have met much support, since jobs there are really scarce. I chose chemical technology, my sister teaching degree for elementary school. Since there were some universities within commuting distance, my parents said we could stay with them. They also told us that if we wanted to move out and live in a student dorm or share flat with someone, they'd either pay the rent or the living costs, but the other half we'd have to cover ourselves. Since I was not yet ready at that time to live on my own, I stayed with my parents. It took me several internships away from home to eventually feel somewhat strangled by my parents' constant presence. My dad also made sure that we had a summer job almost every year so that we'd learn a bit about constant work and how nice it feels to have money. Since my parents were well off, they did not ask for rent or anything during those summer months and I was able to use that money for vacation trips (including my trip to New Zealand) and later my car. And long term study fees, as I did not finish within 12 semsters but 14 semester and those extra fees were my responsibility.
Once I finished my studies however, my parents pressured me to get a real job. And by the time, even though they would not have thrown me out, I was more than ready to start living on my own. Once I had the job, my parents helped me get started with my new life, that is my mom bought me a washing machine and my dad gave me a generous gift of money which covered quite a few of all those things you suddenly need (from spatula to dining table). But even today, if for a large acquisition I need a loan, they prefer that I go to them first and not to a bank (which is nice, as loan by parents means ex interest unlike the bank). Today they simply say that if we need help and as long as they can afford to give that help, they'll gladly do that.
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Post by Crystal on Sept 29, 2012 9:09:40 GMT -5
In Asia, children stay at home indefinitely. My brother stayed with my parents until he got married (late twenties), and had I been working in Malaysia, I would have too. I don't hold with staying with your parents after marriage, though. That's just awkward. xD It all depends on how you look at it. Back home, 'independence', while a virtue, is not quite as highly regarded as 'family'. When my parents grow old, they'll move in with my brother, and he'll take care of them for the rest of their lives, like how they took care of my grandparents. Not everyone does it that way, of course, but I certainly see way more of that kind of arrangement in Asia than in the Western world. The concept of filial piety and the urge to see your children succeed is stronger than that of independence. Now personally, I went to college overseas, so I effectively moved out when I was 17 (I never went home for breaks, I opened my own bank account, I applied for a million pieces of governmental paperwork). My parents paid for my tuition, which makes me awfully lucky in that regard. I held down three part time jobs throughout the majority of my college career. So I guess I've always been very blessed, having never had to struggle to keep or get a job. As far as money goes, my family has always been very fluid with finances within the family. My parents recently extended me a loan to put down a downpayment for my new house, and once they're too old to earn a living anymore, I'll send money home monthly to help out. I've been living on my own for six years now, but if we both lived in America, I'd probably still be over there every weekend, just because I could.
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Post by Huntress on Sept 29, 2012 9:30:24 GMT -5
It all depends on how you look at it. Back home, 'independence', while a virtue, is not quite as highly regarded as 'family'. Curiously, the vibe I get from all sorts of social media isn't so much that independence is a virtue, but that dependence is a sin. Like, Asia is all about the family and Europe sorta varies but is fairly heavily geared towards kids moving out fairly late, but in the Western hemisphere, you're expected to become independent a-sap, and if you don't, cue shame and guilt. And I've wondered for a long time now why that's the case. 40-year-old slobs in the basement is one thing (and in that case I'd mostly raise an eyebrow at the parents anyway) but where does that uniform pressure come from? As in, even if you can't move out, you're still expected to feel bad about it.
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Post by Komori on Sept 29, 2012 9:43:15 GMT -5
Well, my parents definitely aren't well-off. Yet they've never required me to pay for anything while living there. Even for college, a lot of my tuition was paid off in a parent loan (because I wasn't even allowed to get it all as student loan if they were able to get a loan. Dunno how that works.), which they've been deferring because they can't afford it. As soon as my own chunk of student loan's been paid off, I intend to take that one on myself, what with it being my tuition and all.
And three years out of college, I lived at home, rent-free. I definitely didn't like it, though, because I much prefer independence and being drama-free (and vermin-free, bleh). I volunteered to cook dinner for everyone as my contribution, as well as vacuuming the house, but that's just more out of guilt for mooching than any obligation. (We've never had chores, really)
Even when I found a job, my mom helped drive me the 8 hrs to Atlanta, and my grandparents gave me a couple thousand for moving-in expenses. (But I'm a cheapskate with my furniture anyway. $40 desk and a $10 air mattress were my only furniture for months. Still use an air mattress, a year later.)
Really, I think my folks are too lax. XD The only reason I'm not a mooch is because I can't STAND being one. My sister, unfortunately, is heading towards that mooch lifestyle, being 40 and still living at home.
ULTIMATELY, I think it depends a lot on the child. Because really, by 18 they're at least old enough to think for themselves. So how you should handle them really depend on how THEY are. This isn't a case of parenting a 5-yr old, where every kid's pretty-much the same. Dealing with a new-adult should be handled like dealing with any other adult: on a case-by-case basis.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2012 13:29:37 GMT -5
I think that it's a very personal decision and it largely depends on the parents and child in question. One extreme might work for one family while the other extreme might work for another, and in-betweens work for still more families.
No one method is going to work for everyone. Everyone should find what method is best for the parents and child in question, then stick to it unless something happens so that a new method becomes a better idea, then switch.
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Post by PFA on Sept 29, 2012 18:52:43 GMT -5
Well, as for me personally, I'm 18, currently don't have a job, and couldn't even dream of moving out. So I've still been living at home, not having to pay rent or anything, with parents paying for college and all that. I definitely was not anywhere near ready to be independent the day I turned 18—I'm still not, really XD;—and am really glad that my parents weren't that strict, because otherwise I'd probably be homeless right now.
Basically what I've been hoping for is that once I get a job/get married/whatever, and actually have the means to go out and buy my own things, then I'd definitely consider going independent. But until then, I'm grateful I can still rely on my parents to take care of me until I can get my feet off of the ground. Which is basically what my parents have been saying, they take care of me until I can take care of myself.
And yeah, I think exactly where the breakoff point is will vary from person to person. I mean, I'd definitely want to encourage becoming independent—the whole 40-year-old slob thing and all—but just kicking an unprepared kid out into the world isn't going to suddenly make them become independent.
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Post by Crystal on Sept 30, 2012 11:02:50 GMT -5
It all depends on how you look at it. Back home, 'independence', while a virtue, is not quite as highly regarded as 'family'. Curiously, the vibe I get from all sorts of social media isn't so much that independence is a virtue, but that dependence is a sin. Like, Asia is all about the family and Europe sorta varies but is fairly heavily geared towards kids moving out fairly late, but in the Western hemisphere, you're expected to become independent a-sap, and if you don't, cue shame and guilt. And I've wondered for a long time now why that's the case. 40-year-old slobs in the basement is one thing (and in that case I'd mostly raise an eyebrow at the parents anyway) but where does that uniform pressure come from? As in, even if you can't move out, you're still expected to feel bad about it. Good point. It might actually be a bit of both - ergo, dependence is a sin, therefore independence is a virtue, etc. Also, after having just lived in the same room as my parents for three weeks, I think independence might be highly underrated. I am so happy to have my apartment to myself again. The 'leap' of being independent is something that you really get used to after awhile, and it's difficult to go back once you get used to it. I think if someone tried to tell me what to do when I was 17, I would have meekly accepted it, whereas if someone tried to order me around now, I would be like "Suck on it, mister! Go jump in a lake!" What does shock me, though, are the kids who can't wait to move out and 'get away from this place'. I'm sure the reasons are as standard in Asia as in the US, but I dunno... it just always shocks me to the core of my filial Asian soul.
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Post by Ginz ❤ on Sept 30, 2012 12:53:18 GMT -5
Here in Mexico, things work pretty much exactly the same as how Crystal described things in Asia. It's all about the family.
In my case, it doesn't really help that my parents have always been overprotective and I've lived a pretty sheltered life, but I'm sure that if I told my mom I was moving out, she wouldn't only be shocked, she'd be upset. She's even less ready to let go than I am, and I'm 23 going on 24. Maybe if I lived in the US I would feel ashamed or guilty, or at the very least I'd worry I'm mooching off my parents, but the truth is living with your parents for longer is completely normal here. I'm not saying it's better or worse, it just is. I'm not the odd twenty-something who lives at home while half the others my age have moved out. Almost everyone my age I know IRL still lives with their parents.
I remember the first time I heard on the internet about someone paying rent to their parents it was a huge culture shock for me. That just doesn't happen here. I've never heard of anyone who does.
So I'm not sure how I feel about that in particular, just because the idea of people becoming independent so young feels pretty foreign to me.
I believe in independence when it's about being able to take care of yourself, but I don't think it should matter if you're not ready for it the minute you become an "adult". I mean, the only problem I see is if a person thought "Oh, well, my parents will pay for me anyway, so why should I even try?" But having parents who pay for you doesn't mean you'll develop that kind of mentality. As long as you're working towards being able to carry your own weight, I don't see a problem with getting all the support you can get, including being financially dependent.
My parents pay for me because my studies are very demanding in both time and energy, and if I had to worry about making a living on my own on top of that, my performance would suffer. I see it happen with my classmates who do have jobs. They have trouble meeting deadlines and have to get extensions from teachers, and usually teachers are very understanding, but it's still not ideal. I feel very lucky that my parents are able to help me that way.
I don't know. I think parents can pay for their adult children for as long as they need the support, and still teach them good values so they're ready to go out and be independent in their own time.
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Post by Komori on Sept 30, 2012 14:31:48 GMT -5
I think there may be a bit of a misunderstanding about kids moving out during their college years. Almost every person I knew in college still lived with their parents, in the sense that, during college break, they'd go back and live with their folks. Even the people who were renting apartments outside of the college dorms were usually being financially supported by their parents, usually with a part-time job to cover books or fun-times money.
I'm not sure I know anywhere where kids being independent during college is the norm, rather than special circumstance.
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