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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2012 3:15:53 GMT -5
I realize that this is going to make me sound like an old fogey with a cane, going "You whippersnapper!" at anyone under 25. But yes, I am almost 32. I am an adult. I can't run from that. And I've worked with young people and kids for 6 years plus some. I saw this image on Facebook: And I just could not keep my arms down, because I agreed with this so much. Now, I also realize that times have changed from when I was a kid. And even my upbringing was old school for its time. I was raised to be independent from a very young age. So this article is very close to home for me. However, I do see a lot of teens/youths who are complaining about society, mooching off of their parents, are being lazy and generally expects every good thing in their lives to come to them without much effort on their behalf. And it makes me sad. I've always been fond of the quote: "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country". I believe that what is earned the hard way will last longer and appreciated more. And if anyone feels 'hit' by this article or by my words, I apologize and you may talk to me about it over PM. I'm interested in hearing what people here think about the development of the youth, and why they think the youth today has gotten the stigma of being lazy whiners in most 1st. world countries. Overprotective parents who are afraid of conflicts with their child? Because there will be conflicts when you, as a parent, demand certain things of your child. So it's easier to just let them do what they want. Yes? No? What do you think will happen in the future when that generation of youth takes over?
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Post by M is for Morphine on Aug 9, 2012 4:04:37 GMT -5
Ovid believed that mankind was on a downward slope from perfect harmony with Gods and nature to utter barbarity. Hindu philosophy teaches that we've fallen from a time of pure good to the Kali Yuga, an epoch were evil outnumbers goodness 3 to 1. Basically as long as there has been man, we've pictured ourselves in a moral decline. We have a bad habit of projecting this onto our younger generations.
Reminds me of:
Spoiler: They were talking about your mom and dad.
Today's youth are different from us, because we've grown and changed. They're also exactly like us in a lot of ways we don't want to admit. They'll grow up like we did, and they'll be fine.
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Post by Enn on Aug 9, 2012 4:08:16 GMT -5
Every generation has lazy people and whiners in it. This generation just happens to be the first where the teenage whining can be seen all across the world through Facebook and Twitter, and where every little mistake a person makes is liable to be recorded somewhere on Google for all time. This generation not only has to contend with being hit hardest by the recession, with youth unemployment hitting record highs in America and huge levels around the world. Student debt is ginormous, young people are finding it impossible to get on the property ladder, and faith in government is at an all time low in many places. This is a generation shaken by scandals and collapses in the financial systems, senseless acts of terror and violence, and at least in America a climate that is extraordinarily divided. I think there are whiny teenagers and whiny young adults, and people who could be working but aren't. But in the current climate, with a lack of jobs and security, I'm not concerned about what'll happen when this generation takes over. This is the connected generation, with a wealth of knowledge at their fingertips and the know-how to access it; we can send messages around the globe in moments, and technology continues to advance. This generation is going to do fine, if for no other reason than they'd be hard pressed to make the situation worse by this point.
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Post by M is for Morphine on Aug 9, 2012 4:14:58 GMT -5
Also, I bristle a bit when I see that 'your town does not owe you recreational facilities' thing. It makes me think of the teenage girl I worked with when I first came to Philly. She had to do her homework on the floor at home because sometimes bullets would come in and hit the wall. Lawn? Windows? Raft?! Some people don't have these options and really do need a safe place (like a rec center) to go after school. But no, it's another 'hoist yourself up by the bootstraps' screed. Just in case you think she was joking: Source.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2012 4:24:45 GMT -5
Also, I bristle a bit when I see that 'your town does not owe you recreational facilities' thing. It makes me think of the teenage girl I worked with when I first came to Philly. She had to do her homework on the floor at home because sometimes bullets would come in and hit the wall. Lawn? Windows? Raft?! Some people don't have these options and really do need a safe place (like a rec center) to go after school. But no, it's another 'hoist yourself up by the bootstraps' screed. Oh, I don't think it's supposed to be taken literally. Not everyone has the means to do what he says. I think it's more of a 'do what needs to be done' thing. Obviously if you live in a violent neighborhood, you can't just waltz out and take on the world. But what I read into it is, that doing nothing will gain you nothing. And I agree that adults will always see youth as different from themselves. But I can't help but wonder how this development will go. The youth today is drastically different from the youth 50 years ago. Obviously.
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Post by M is for Morphine on Aug 9, 2012 4:47:17 GMT -5
Oh, I don't think it's supposed to be taken literally. Not everyone has the means to do what he says. I think it's more of a 'do what needs to be done' thing. Obviously if you live in a violent neighborhood, you can't just waltz out and take on the world. But what I read into it is, that doing nothing will gain you nothing. Well, it's from a judge who deals with youth. These youths I met are sadly the most likely to end up in front of a judge. So. Yeah. They're also the only demographic I've actually seen requesting rec centers. What good does it do to tell these kids to go read a book when we've shut down their libraries? Or when the schools are so bad that these kids are functionally illiterate? This piece is literally saying, "Grow up and grow a spine." It's dismissing people with real roadblocks as entitled whiners. So who is this article for? The actual whiners will just make more excuses, and it doesn't even seem to apply to the youths we should be most concerned about. It seems to exist solely for people to shake their heads and tut-tut over how bad and lazy our kids are.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2012 4:53:21 GMT -5
Oh, I don't think it's supposed to be taken literally. Not everyone has the means to do what he says. I think it's more of a 'do what needs to be done' thing. Obviously if you live in a violent neighborhood, you can't just waltz out and take on the world. But what I read into it is, that doing nothing will gain you nothing. Well, it's from a judge who deals with youth. These youths I met are sadly the most likely to end up in front of a judge. So. Yeah. They're also the only demographic I've actually seen requesting rec centers. What good does it do to tell these kids to go read a book when we've shut down their libraries? Or when the schools are so bad that these kids are functionally illiterate? This piece is literally saying, "Grow up and grow a spine." It's dismissing people with real roadblocks as entitled whiners. So who is this article for? The actual whiners will just make more excuses, and it doesn't even seem to apply to the youths we should be most concerned about. It seems to exist solely for people to shake their heads and tut-tut over how bad and lazy our kids are. I think it's meant for the parents of the kids who are being lazy and whining. Because ultimately it comes down to how they are being raised. It definitely made me feel better about the way I raise Cookie. Of course I cannot speak for the youth i the US. But over here, we have a lot of moochers benefiting from (abusing) our welfare system. And I would like nothing more than to see them get a nice wake-up call and get out there and take their part of the 'load' instead of sitting at home, whining about not having an education or that the government sucks. ... well, you get everything paid -because- of the government. I'm 32 and I'm taking a second education, just because. What's to prevent you from taking one at the ripe age of 18? Especially when education is free here. Honestly.
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Post by M is for Morphine on Aug 9, 2012 4:58:57 GMT -5
I have no doubt that was the entire point of the article. So people can go "I'm no so bad, look at them. They're lazy and bad, I'm awesome just in comparison." Feels great, sells papers, solves nothing.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2012 5:13:47 GMT -5
I have no doubt that was the entire point of the article. So people can go "I'm no so bad, look at them. They're lazy and bad, I'm awesome just in comparison." Feels great, sells papers, solves nothing. There's never a solution with these things. It's meant as something to reflect upon.
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Post by Enn on Aug 9, 2012 5:18:17 GMT -5
Speaking from a UK perspective, almost every day one of our tabloids has an article or headline on benefit claimants mooching off the system. The media blows this into a huge thing that it really isn't. If you're claiming jobseeker's allowance you're meant to be actively looking for work, or your benefit is sanctioned- taken away from you, or severely docked. There are work training/experience schemes you can be put onto, and again if they're mandatory and you refuse your benefit is sanctioned. Sometimes though, despite all of this, there aren't the jobs, and that is more true now than for a long time previously. Info on the UK situation. If you're disabled or ill and unable to work you go onto Employment and Support Allowance, and even this has schemes focused on trying to get those who could realistically go back to work in the future trained up and ready for that. Fraud and error combined account for just an estimated 2% of the expenditure on benefit being overpaid. Source. Roughly speaking that suggests 98% of benefits are paid correctly to people who are either too ill to work or actively seeking it and unable to find it. The only significant statistics I can find about age and benefits aren't to do with benefit fraud but that people under 25 get paid far less benefits when out of work in our system, in part based on the assumption that they can rely on parents to look after them. Just recently there's been talk of cutting housing benefit for under-25s, which would make it even more difficult to leave the parental home, and has been condemned widely (one example)Benefit fraud is a whole different subject to 'youth today' unless you can find some statistics tying the two, but both are interesting subjects that merit discussion. To what things? Bad parenting, lazy children, benefit fraud? There's solutions to all of these that again merit discussion.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2012 5:21:10 GMT -5
I'll try and find some, Nick. Because it really is a huge deal over here. Especially with the government funding you get for attending school; you get more money if you have your own flat. So a lot of youths make a false address to get more money even though they still live with their parents.
But yes, it's another branch of 'today's youth', but not so far off that we can't include it in this debate.
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Post by Enn on Aug 9, 2012 5:46:18 GMT -5
I'm afraid I actually have no idea which country you're in Leoness, I've been out of the loop so long, otherwise I'd look too. Statistics suggest the USA also has around 2% benefit fraud, similar to the UK figures. 1 in 50 claims are fraudulent based on that statistic. There's figures for Norway cited on this powerpoint presentation which has a source link that is, understandably, in Norwegian so I can't confirm it; that suggests fraud for sickness benefits is between 6% and 8%, and is larger than Sweden. That's still very low compared to how the media portrays rampant benefit fraud, at least in my experience. None of these figures break down the ages, ethnicities or any other factors in who is making the fraudulent claims.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2012 6:39:32 GMT -5
Nick, I am disappoint =|
*pokes forum profile 'Location'*
xD
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Post by Enn on Aug 9, 2012 6:49:23 GMT -5
Nick, I am disappoint =| *pokes forum profile 'Location'* xD D: It appears to have been so long since I was last active that I even forgot we had a 'location' thing in our profiles! The only info I can find for Denmark is this report which says, unfortunately, there are no benefit fraud figures for Denmark, but mentions that British and Swedish figures show an average of 2-4% of benefit payments are fraudulent or incorrect. This report suggests total benefit fraud and error (combined) in New Zealand of 2.7% and Canada of 3%-5%. Almost all of the figures seem to be in this general area. I've found no proof that benefit fraud is as widespread, rampant and damaging as the media (The Daily Mail over here essentially) makes out, although it is obviously something that needs to be countered. And again, nothing linking youth in any way to these figures; these are for people of all ages claiming benefits.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2012 7:53:16 GMT -5
Nick, I am disappoint =| *pokes forum profile 'Location'* xD D: It appears to have been so long since I was last active that I even forgot we had a 'location' thing in our profiles! The only info I can find for Denmark is this report which says, unfortunately, there are no benefit fraud figures for Denmark, but mentions that British and Swedish figures show an average of 2-4% of benefit payments are fraudulent or incorrect. This report suggests total benefit fraud and error (combined) in New Zealand of 2.7% and Canada of 3%-5%. Almost all of the figures seem to be in this general area. I've found no proof that benefit fraud is as widespread, rampant and damaging as the media (The Daily Mail over here essentially) makes out, although it is obviously something that needs to be countered. And again, nothing linking youth in any way to these figures; these are for people of all ages claiming benefits. Well, I found some info myself. Though, it's in Danish, so I hope you will take my word for it when I just translate it to English in my own words. Apparently the Danish welfare system is cheated for roughly 12 billion kroner a year (devide by 6 to get in US dollars) - and this is a country with only 5,5 million inhabitants. They estimate that every 18. student over 18, has cheated with the benefits and received the money even though they weren't studying. In one city alone, 15 students (under the age of 25) had cheated for 600,000 kroner by stating that they lived on their own, when they still lived with their parents. Those are pretty high numbers for a small country. And it irks me when I hear teens over here, bashing the government for not doing enough for them. They have so many options, but seem to lack the drive to explore them and work hard to achieve them. I know it sounds like I'm generalizing, but I'm only referring to the youths who are '90% words and 10% action' and seems to find comfort in complaining. All I'm saying is, that if they -have- the means to do something about it, they should.
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