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Post by Huntress on Jun 1, 2020 5:09:00 GMT -5
Boy, am I glad all of a sudden that I managed to piece in my Shad and Saura #100 before the unexpected onset of Humansgate 2020. I can understand new-editor-growing-pains and overall complications arising from having to navigate the ancient patchwork of rules and customs that the entire Neopets site is these days, but dang, site users really shouldn't need to get caught in the gears of the company's inability to keep anything consistent and properly communicated.
(of course, if I really wanted to snark, I'd suggest just waiting another five or so months until we get yet another new editor and they completely forget everything to do with the current interpretation of the rules xP We've been going through them like popes recently.)
But no really, I feel for everyone who's been impacted by this. Would there be any way for us to band together over this? As in, craft an actual joint message explaining the issue like the Neopian Times Writers' Forum that we are? Would bring a bit more weight, cohesion and coordinated effort than the varied articles and tickets sent out individually.
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Post by Ziporen on Jun 1, 2020 5:44:27 GMT -5
I'm not a consistent NT author and I haven't written anything with humans, but IMO owners and such should be allowed in the NT. Seems unfair to long established authors to suddenly reverse that now. Anyway though, I just wanted to play the URL sleuthing game post that I found some older editions of the NT, with the first one being: www.neopets.com/nt/2/index.htmlAnd the last one being there at '11' in the URL. I also had to go through these NT time capsules! SO, this seems to be the first image of a human in the NT: images.neopets.com/nt/week2/youngshai.jpgThese seems to be the first story and comic mentioning 'owner': www.neopets.com/nt/2/stariestory.htmwww.neopets.com/nt/3/crimsonsuncomic.htmAnd the first story mentioning 'human': www.neopets.com/nt/4/homelessneopet.htmAlso the 'The End of Kacheeks' series (throughout 4 to 11) seeeems to have some human characters that play story roles? Anyway, I just thought this was interesting. Not sure how relevant it is to the issue at hand, but hopefully it'll help you, June Scarlet. Very nice finds!! Looks like the only original issues that are completely MIA are 1 and 12-22, then.
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Post by Geo 🇺🇦 🌻 on Jun 1, 2020 9:10:43 GMT -5
Boy, am I glad all of a sudden that I managed to piece in my Shad and Saura #100 before the unexpected onset of Humansgate 2020. I can understand new-editor-growing-pains and overall complications arising from having to navigate the ancient patchwork of rules and customs that the entire Neopets site is these days, but dang, site users really shouldn't need to get caught in the gears of the company's inability to keep anything consistent and properly communicated. (of course, if I really wanted to snark, I'd suggest just waiting another five or so months until we get yet another new editor and they completely forget everything to do with the current interpretation of the rules xP We've been going through them like popes recently.) But no really, I feel for everyone who's been impacted by this. Would there be any way for us to band together over this? As in, craft an actual joint message explaining the issue like the Neopian Times Writers' Forum that we are? Would bring a bit more weight, cohesion and coordinated effort than the varied articles and tickets sent out individually. I submitted my article already, but if there’s a bigger, coordinated response too, I’d be willing to participate if they refuse to budge on this new interpretation of the rules.
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Post by June Scarlet on Jun 1, 2020 10:58:30 GMT -5
In a way, this article I'm writing is a coordinated effort because I'm relying a lot on you guys for helping me with the research. Currently at 2800 words, and 20 works cited.
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Post by Herdy on Jun 1, 2020 14:43:19 GMT -5
I think as long as they get enough editorial questions addressing the issue and pointing out how they are, quite plainly, wrong in what they said, they will backpedal. They did over that weird editorial where Jade said Neopets couldn't grow hair.
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Post by Kat on Jun 2, 2020 6:38:54 GMT -5
Boy, am I glad all of a sudden that I managed to piece in my Shad and Saura #100 before the unexpected onset of Humansgate 2020. I can understand new-editor-growing-pains and overall complications arising from having to navigate the ancient patchwork of rules and customs that the entire Neopets site is these days, but dang, site users really shouldn't need to get caught in the gears of the company's inability to keep anything consistent and properly communicated. (of course, if I really wanted to snark, I'd suggest just waiting another five or so months until we get yet another new editor and they completely forget everything to do with the current interpretation of the rules xP We've been going through them like popes recently.) But no really, I feel for everyone who's been impacted by this. Would there be any way for us to band together over this? As in, craft an actual joint message explaining the issue like the Neopian Times Writers' Forum that we are? Would bring a bit more weight, cohesion and coordinated effort than the varied articles and tickets sent out individually. Hmm, what if we set aside another issue for our other submissions related to this issue, and/or went along with the actual joint message? I don't mind being the one to craft the joint message, subject to everyone's input and comments. *puts lawyerbot hat back on* Haven't done my editorial question though, need to strike that delicate balance between DUDE WHAT THE MEEPIT GUYS and MAY I GENTLY DIRECT YOUR ATTENTION TO THESE RECEIPTS I think as long as they get enough editorial questions addressing the issue and pointing out how they are, quite plainly, wrong in what they said, they will backpedal. They did over that weird editorial where Jade said Neopets couldn't grow hair. Hairgate? HAIRGATE? Now THAT will have a lot of receipts considering that there's a metric ton of official site art to debunk that theory. It should really be a requirement for every incoming NT editor to actually read an issue of the NT from cover to cover, at this rate. Son, I am disappoint.
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Post by Huntress on Jun 2, 2020 9:37:29 GMT -5
Well, the operative question here is whether the editor's expressed stance is a misunderstanding of the rules a la Jade's Neopet hair statement (which would be easy enough to backpedal and would, as the best case scenario, only go down as yet another nail in the coffin of poor communication and transparency) or something they're now treating as a rule to enforce regardless of what past editors might've allowed (Neopets has a long and complex enough history with stuff like this - dunno how many oldies still remember the time we had to morph Droplet into a Baby Kougra after they took the stance that staff members could no longer be human in the NT. I have an old published comic where she was depicted as a human, and then they changed that rule.) The way the editorial response is worded is ambiguous enough that it could go either way. But I kind of read it as "wait whoops this shouldn't have been allowed in the first place" and whatever may have been allowed before is moot to them. Something must've prompted them to suddenly start kersploding entries with humans with no warning - Jade's thing with hair was at least a direct response to a user's question.
All speculative, of course. With any luck we'll find out in the upcoming editorial.
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Post by Kat on Jun 2, 2020 9:51:11 GMT -5
Well, the operative question here is whether the editor's expressed stance is a misunderstanding of the rules a la Jade's Neopet hair statement (which would be easy enough to backpedal and would, as the best case scenario, only go down as yet another nail in the coffin of poor communication and transparency) or something they're now treating as a rule to enforce regardless of what past editors might've allowed (Neopets has a long and complex enough history with stuff like this - dunno how many oldies still remember the time we had to morph Droplet into a Baby Kougra after they took the stance that staff members could no longer be human in the NT. I have an old published comic where she was depicted as a human, and then they changed that rule.) OH I remember that. I think I had a comic collab that was also rejected when we tried to put together a Droplet appreciation issue. But yeah, we'll have to see what happens in the next editorial when questions have begun to flood in about this new move.
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Post by June Scarlet on Jun 2, 2020 10:47:16 GMT -5
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Post by Twillie on Jun 2, 2020 12:30:16 GMT -5
A collective message to TNT could definitely be an option depending on what TNT's current stance is about the rule! If it's a misunderstanding and they address this in the upcoming NT issue, then that'd take care of it, but if they dig their heels in or don't address it at all, I think a step further with a collective message could give them better perspective on how strongly we feel (alongside NT entries being made that'd like be submitted/reviewed in the coming few weeks). The other question I have regarding a join message would be where to put or sent it. I don't know if this is a me-problem or not, but the past few months now sending a message to nt_editor feels equivalent to talking to a brick wall. I've gotten no response or acknowledgement from them for a long time now, and I dunno if anyone else has had better luck with communication? Other option could be putting the message on the Neoboards, either directly on a thread or linking to a petpage that has the complete message. June Scarlet Yup, that's what the title looked like! Regarding a couple other questions as well: The Editor for Issue 635 was Droplet. Looking at the date it was published (March 2014) and Droplet's activity on the forum, she was actively answering questions about the NT here that same date. And for the comic series that changed their humans to Neopets, that was Room for Two in Issue 124. It was way back in the day of 2003, and I think Snowflake was the Editor then, and Droplet and Mr. Pickles were NT assistants for her (however this is just from skimming over 2003 activity from TNT members on the forum and crosschecking with Jellyneo's page about the NT, so this could be inaccurate (especially thanks to the weird numbering system of older NT issues lol)). I still need to read through the whole thing (I didn't get far before thanks to falling asleep whoops xD), so I can give further feedback after that!
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Post by Geo 🇺🇦 🌻 on Jun 2, 2020 12:44:06 GMT -5
A collective message to TNT could definitely be an option depending on what TNT's current stance is about the rule! If it's a misunderstanding and they address this in the upcoming NT issue, then that'd take care of it, but if they dig their heels in or don't address it at all, I think a step further with a collective message could give them better perspective on how strongly we feel (alongside NT entries being made that'd like be submitted/reviewed in the coming few weeks). The other question I have regarding a join message would be where to put or sent it. I don't know if this is a me-problem or not, but the past few months now sending a message to nt_editor feels equivalent to talking to a brick wall. I've gotten no response or acknowledgement from them for a long time now, and I dunno if anyone else has had better luck with communication? Other option could be putting the message on the Neoboards, either directly on a thread or linking to a petpage that has the complete message. What about social media platforms? I know in the past, TNT always copy/pastes the standard "please send a message to support@neopets.com and you will be presented with a ticket #". That does feel like the equivalent to a brick wall. We do want to have it in a place where it's harder to ignore though.
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Post by Twillie on Jun 2, 2020 12:51:57 GMT -5
Twitter is the social media platform I think TNT is most active, and yeah it's usually that standard ticket response. At the very least, though, whenever they give you that reply back it does actually progress your ticket, and now and then the Twitter likes to like and retweet Neopets-related posts, so there's a real person behind the account and reading things.
If we use that platform, we'd probably need to clarify in the tweet that it's not a ticket issue, and I might also suggest we use Twitter as a supplemental platform rather than the only one. No idea who runs the Neopets twitter account or who they have main contact with, so for any off-site communication we'll probably want to do at least one on-site as well.
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Post by Geo 🇺🇦 🌻 on Jun 2, 2020 14:51:31 GMT -5
Twillie I think it's fine for us to reach out on multiple platforms, probably one offsite and one onsite like you suggested. Our Twitter message has to be short and concise, but we can post a longer one for our onsite message.
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Post by Killix on Jun 2, 2020 15:13:56 GMT -5
I had my persona (Killix) appear in some of my comics if that somehow helps with your research. (I even managed to get a comic published with a Pokemon in it once, ha. XD)
Haven't been active in a loooong time, so my comics are all in very old issues.
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Post by Twillie on Jun 3, 2020 19:50:00 GMT -5
Thank goodness I finally got done sending the editor a neomail, plus that I kept a neomail tab open for a few days now, else I might've been caught in early mobile-testing shenanigans >> On my computer at least Neopets is taking too long to load, and I'm not sure when it may work for me again, so I feel like I got that done just in time xD Also June Scarlet have some article feedback from me as well! It's looking good so far! I especially enjoyed the section where you compared and contrasted TNT Staff member portrayal in and out of site lore, and how you made the point with AAA that, even if it's said humans aren't part of Neo lore, that rule is actually quite fuzzy at times.
The breakdown of the NT guidelines is also really good! Very thorough look into that rule and how it may be interpreted.
The chunk from "Alongside the aforementioned owner in Issue 2..." to around "...when this catches the attention of their other Neopet," I feel loses steam that earlier parts had because it's mostly just listing different human appearances without expanding upon them. As a general reader, I'm likely already aware that humans are present in the NT and take that for granted, so in reading about these characters, I'd be interested to know more about what their appearances may mean. How does this specific character add to the arguments being made in the article? Did that specific entry make a significant impact or stick out in some way? Is this an example of a common trope or trend you'd find in the NT? So these humans are in the NT, what makes their appearance significant to the NT, or how may they shape the NT?
Some smaller points I noticed:
-"Human" has some inconsistent capitalization; sometimes it's capitalized, other times it's a normal "human." I'm also kinda wondering why "owner" is capitalized as well. Neither are proper nouns, so even if Neopets and Faeries and the like are capitalized, it can get kinda confusing for me just because I've never seen them capitalized like that before.
-The works cited note might do better at the very beginning of the article, like one of those notes that precedes the main content. Where it is right now feels a bit redundant and stops the flow of the article itself.
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